What is it about humans that makes some of us think shooting an animal with a gun is brave or noble or tough

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S

SlitheryDee

I haven't hunted in a while, but I've killed a few deer in my day. 2 does and one spike (my first) to be exact. I sorely regret shooting the spike, but I was very young at the time and I thought it was a doe. All of the deer that I've "harvested" were not "pen deer" and all salvageable meat was stored for later consumption. Replace any of those deer with a trophy buck and there would be a picture somewhere of me standing next to it shortly after the kill.

There is merit in making a record of an exceptional kill. A buck doesn't grow to be a remarkable specimen in hunted areas without being considerably cunning and difficult to hunt, thus taking a trophy deer IS an accomplishment. It also happens to transcend gender, as one of the largest deer I've ever seen in recent memory was taken by a (quite pretty) woman who was every bit as delighted with her kill as any man would have been. Anecdotal, I know, but she's not the only one.

The only wall we're hitting here is that some people don't see the point in killing a cute furry animal of the wood unless you absolutely NEED to. And throw out the "only if you eat the meat/use the hide" argument, because we know that very few of us need the meat or the hide from a deer when we have clothing and tofu readily available at the nearest Wal-Mart supercenter. The fact that you make allowances for the people that "eat their kills" is a hole your argument IMO.

People, we do all sorts of stuff that we don't necessarily need to do. Most of the time we do them in utter disregard of what impact it has on other people, furry animals of the wood, or the planet in general. At least, AT LEAST hunters are not generally a part of that group. While they sit there waiting for their buddy to snap the picture, maybe they're really smiling because they know that as long as whatever they just killed is a game animal with a regulated hunting season, it's species will NEVER become extinct. I promise you that legal hunters are more rabid about preserving the environment and the animals in it than any of the lot that are against hunting (yes that means trophy hunting too).

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
It's funny seeing people criticize hunters for being proud of their kills in a forum filled with people who post pictures and descriptions of their computers and desktops. The irony is delicious.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: dahunan
You forgot the next steps.. pose with the animal you just shot as though you killed it out of bravery or self defense .. or EVEN killed it out of absolute necessity?

I think a man could be proud of making a hard decision and killing animals because we have destroyed the habitat for their normal predators.. but to pose with a dead animals body? and we thought native americans were savages??
Art found from past cultures often included depictions of the hunt. Hunters were glorified by the tribe. What did you expect native Americans to do with their buffalo, pull out the Polaroid? You're ignorant. Beyond ignorant, you're arrogant. Combine those two things, and you're simply an ass.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: dahunan
You forgot the next steps.. pose with the animal you just shot as though you killed it out of bravery or self defense .. or EVEN killed it out of absolute necessity?

I think a man could be proud of making a hard decision and killing animals because we have destroyed the habitat for their normal predators.. but to pose with a dead animals body? and we thought native americans were savages??
Art found from past cultures often included depictions of the hunt. Hunters were glorified by the tribe. What did you expect native Americans to do with their buffalo, pull out the Polaroid? You're ignorant. Beyond ignorant, you're arrogant. Combine those two things, and you're simply an ass.

It's a wasteful, arrogant, decadent country where people think they're brave or they've accomplished something worthing of boasting just by killing an animal for entertainment.

If we are to think we've evolved at all in terms of humanity, there would be no point comparing ourselves to people who hunt because they will otherwise starve to death and know no better.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: dahunan
You forgot the next steps.. pose with the animal you just shot as though you killed it out of bravery or self defense .. or EVEN killed it out of absolute necessity?

I think a man could be proud of making a hard decision and killing animals because we have destroyed the habitat for their normal predators.. but to pose with a dead animals body? and we thought native americans were savages??
Art found from past cultures often included depictions of the hunt. Hunters were glorified by the tribe. What did you expect native Americans to do with their buffalo, pull out the Polaroid? You're ignorant. Beyond ignorant, you're arrogant. Combine those two things, and you're simply an ass.

It's a wasteful, arrogant, decadent country where people think they're brave or they've accomplished something worthing of boasting just by killing an animal for entertainment.

If we are to think we've evolved at all in terms of humanity, there would be no point comparing ourselves to people who hunt because they will otherwise starve to death and know no better.
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: dahunan
You forgot the next steps.. pose with the animal you just shot as though you killed it out of bravery or self defense .. or EVEN killed it out of absolute necessity?

I think a man could be proud of making a hard decision and killing animals because we have destroyed the habitat for their normal predators.. but to pose with a dead animals body? and we thought native americans were savages??
Art found from past cultures often included depictions of the hunt. Hunters were glorified by the tribe. What did you expect native Americans to do with their buffalo, pull out the Polaroid? You're ignorant. Beyond ignorant, you're arrogant. Combine those two things, and you're simply an ass.

It's a wasteful, arrogant, decadent country where people think they're brave or they've accomplished something worthing of boasting just by killing an animal for entertainment.

If we are to think we've evolved at all in terms of humanity, there would be no point comparing ourselves to people who hunt because they will otherwise starve to death and know no better.
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.

I guess I also missed the part where they justify hunting by having the same desparation for survival as the native americans also?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.

I guess I also missed the part where they justify hunting by having the same desparation for survival as the native americans also?
Well I imagine there would be desperation if somebody was starving. Evolution hasn't seen fit to do away with the need to eat.

And before you spout garbage about going to the grocery store and buying a side of beef, where exactly do you think that beef came from? The beef fairy? Animals are killed for their meat. Should we be proud of the fact that cows are bred by the millions solely for our consumption? Compare that to the hunter that actually works for his food.

This has all been covered in the thread. I know there's a lot of information here, but try to stay with us.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.

I guess I also missed the part where they justify hunting by having the same desparation for survival as the native americans also?
Well I imagine there would be desperation if somebody was starving. Evolution hasn't seen fit to do away with the need to eat.

And before you spout garbage about going to the grocery store and buying a side of beef, where exactly do you think that beef came from? The beef fairy? Animals are killed for their meat. Should we be proud of the fact that cows are bred by the millions solely for our consumption? Compare that to the hunter that actually works for his food.

This has all been covered in the thread. I know there's a lot of information here, but try to stay with us.

The threat of starvation is not the same as the need to eat. I would imagine you and I are blessed enough to be familiar with only one of those conditions. The luxury of not knowing the former condition means that the reasons for hunting have become strictly secondary.

I love meat, but I don't see a need for me to assert my dominance over deer-dom by killing members of their species and puffing my chesty while I do it. The need to eat meat is nothing to be proud or shamed about. The excitement of killing indicates an egoistic or sadistic desire in a person, and this is what bothers me about hunting.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.

I guess I also missed the part where they justify hunting by having the same desparation for survival as the native americans also?
Well I imagine there would be desperation if somebody was starving. Evolution hasn't seen fit to do away with the need to eat.

And before you spout garbage about going to the grocery store and buying a side of beef, where exactly do you think that beef came from? The beef fairy? Animals are killed for their meat. Should we be proud of the fact that cows are bred by the millions solely for our consumption? Compare that to the hunter that actually works for his food.

This has all been covered in the thread. I know there's a lot of information here, but try to stay with us.
The threat of starvation is not the same as the need to eat. I would imagine you and I are blessed enough to be familiar with only one of those conditions. The luxury of not knowing the former condition means that the reasons for hunting have become strictly secondary.
The need to eat is directly related to starvation. I'm not really sure I should even bother attempting to talk to you, since you fail to see a relationship in one of the most basic human needs. I'll try to grin and bear it.

I love meat, but I don't see a need for me to assert my dominance over deer-dom by killing members of their species and puffing my chesty while I do it. The need to eat meat is nothing to be proud or shamed about. The excitement of killing indicates an egoistic or sadistic desire in a person, and this is what bothers me about hunting.
So you do eat meat. You're quite content to allow someone else to slaughter animals and stuff your face, but when somebody kills the animal themselves for consumption, they're sadistic?

So you say you don't understand pride in a successful hunt? Why don't you share with the group some things you are proud of. I'd enjoy tearing them apart and showing you how silly it is to be proud of those things.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: judasmachine
Originally posted by: bluestrobe
Reading this thread makes me wonder about society. Hunting is a hobby, like building computers. I have seen several pictures of people's systems on here they built from scratch. Why take picture of a computer? What is the point? Same with cars, houses, yards, along with everything else people take an interest in.

Perhaps because computers don't involve killing? I think the OP's line of reasoning was that why is it manly to shoot something with a gun, when it is so relatively easy (even i've done it.) Not so much why people do it, but why they think it makes them a man.

Maybe they do it because they enjoy it? Because it is good for the environment and it puts food on the table? Did that ever occur to any of you?

How do you come to the conclusion that hunters hunt to make themselve feel like men? I've known plenty of guys and some women who hunt and I've never come to that conclusion about any of them.

Jeez, this thread full of idiotic conclusions about a sport most of you clearly have no clue about.

Perhaps it was the guides that took me on my first hunt who said they had to "paint" me when I got my first buck. They then told me I was man, w00t.
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.

I guess I also missed the part where they justify hunting by having the same desparation for survival as the native americans also?
Well I imagine there would be desperation if somebody was starving. Evolution hasn't seen fit to do away with the need to eat.

And before you spout garbage about going to the grocery store and buying a side of beef, where exactly do you think that beef came from? The beef fairy? Animals are killed for their meat. Should we be proud of the fact that cows are bred by the millions solely for our consumption? Compare that to the hunter that actually works for his food.

This has all been covered in the thread. I know there's a lot of information here, but try to stay with us.
The threat of starvation is not the same as the need to eat. I would imagine you and I are blessed enough to be familiar with only one of those conditions. The luxury of not knowing the former condition means that the reasons for hunting have become strictly secondary.
The need to eat is directly related to starvation. I'm not really sure I should even bother attempting to talk to you, since you fail to see a relationship in one of the most basic human needs. I'll try to grin and bear it.

I love meat, but I don't see a need for me to assert my dominance over deer-dom by killing members of their species and puffing my chesty while I do it. The need to eat meat is nothing to be proud or shamed about. The excitement of killing indicates an egoistic or sadistic desire in a person, and this is what bothers me about hunting.
So you do eat meat. You're quite content to allow someone else to slaughter animals and stuff your face, but when somebody kills the animal themselves for consumption, they're sadistic?

So you say you don't understand pride in a successful hunt? Why don't you share with the group some things you are proud of. I'd enjoy tearing them apart and showing you how silly it is to be proud of those things.

You're not getting what I'm saying. It is not the act of killing that bothers me. It is the ego trip you get holding a big gun and killing with it.

The Bible teaches that pride keeps us from God. It is sin. There are plenty of things I would have uncontrolled pride in if I did not prayerfully ask God to humble me. Do I need to reveal what they are if I know they are wrong and unhealthy for me?
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: BoberFettconfused; The need to eat is directly related to starvation. I'm not really sure I should even bother attempting to talk to you, since you fail to see a relationship in one of the most basic human needs. I'll try to grin and bear it.

Please explain your experiences with your survival being threatened due to starvation recently.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,246
207
106
Originally posted by: DeadByDawn
I hope nobody in here bitches when they hit a deer on the highway @65mph because they are overpopulated.

Originally posted by: Journer
go hunting...return with results...

/thread

Like these guys said in simpler terms, don't knock it until you've tried it, and a good chunk of the deer hunting in the States is because they'd overpopulate otherwise. We've already wiped out most of the wolves and such that'd normally eat the deer (they liked gnawing on our cows too), so there is basically nothing but starvation to keep their population in check.
That said, that reason is why it's government-endorsed (most of the money spent on permits etc. goes back into the land in conservation programs). The reasons we actually get up at four in the morning, sit in a stand for hours in freezing weather, wind, and all kinds of sleet and other fun stuff are these: food, and fun. Why do so many people here plaly FPSs? It's the same sort of concept with deer, minus frag grenades and automatic rifles. You have to have skill to get these animals (I'm ignoring the cheating rich boys that go to deer ranches; that's not hunting, that's just killing). Contrary to popular opinion, you can't just point and shoot a bunch, that only works in games where your character automatically aims a little. Also, there are clip limits, in Missouri you can only have ten rounds in your clip for deer, three for turkey.

As for hunting as a whole, it's either for fun, food, or both, that's it. Other reasons like overpopulation are valid, though that doesn't apply to every species around the world, so it comes down to those two things.

EDIT: Only in English can you sit in a stand for hours....
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,080
12,400
136
Y'know guys, these anti-hunters have us all figured out...we just drive out into the country somewhere, walk out into a field, and there are thousands of deer, pigs, elk, etc., just standing there for us to slaughter enmasse. OR, we sit in a tree stand, (maybe some of youse down south, I never die) and wait for someone to herd them to you....There's no skill in stalking the game, no skill in sneaking up on them so you can get a good clean shot, no skill in finding them, (in spite of this magical guide book referred to earlier in this thread) nope...they'z jest there by the thousands, waiting for us to come get them...Maybe they figured out, that deer come from a big ranch, just like cattle do, where we go pick out the one we want, and tie it to the barn before we pump 300 rounds into it with a fully-automatic AK-47...
Yep, them anti-hunters have us all figured out...I guess the jig is up fellows...maybe we should just start eating tofu like they do...
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
The argument that hunters can get their meat in grocery stores is a pretty poor argument. I can NOT get meat of the quality I get from deer at my local grocery store. Venison is far healthier than beef. The cattle are often fed tons of antibiotics and growth hormones. Venison is all natural.

Furthermore, in terms of the life of the animal, the average cow is butchered at a much younger age than most deer are shot. Explain the difference between allowing cows to free-range and shooting them when it's time for beef and allowing deer to free-range and shooting them when it's time for venison. Allow me to reitterate a few of the differences: the beef are walked/driven to the slaughter house. The hunter has to drag the deer, sometimes for miles, to get it to a vehicle (try moving something that heavy through the woods with trees and saplings all around... it can be incredibly strenuous, especially if you have to go uphill!) The deer has a chance to escape, deer hide very well; the cow doesn't have a chance to escape.

 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: dahunan
You forgot the next steps.. pose with the animal you just shot as though you killed it out of bravery or self defense .. or EVEN killed it out of absolute necessity?

I think a man could be proud of making a hard decision and killing animals because we have destroyed the habitat for their normal predators.. but to pose with a dead animals body? and we thought native americans were savages??
Art found from past cultures often included depictions of the hunt. Hunters were glorified by the tribe. What did you expect native Americans to do with their buffalo, pull out the Polaroid? You're ignorant. Beyond ignorant, you're arrogant. Combine those two things, and you're simply an ass.

It's a wasteful, arrogant, decadent country where people think they're brave or they've accomplished something worthing of boasting just by killing an animal for entertainment.

If we are to think we've evolved at all in terms of humanity, there would be no point comparing ourselves to people who hunt because they will otherwise starve to death and know no better.
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.

I guess I also missed the part where they justify hunting by having the same desparation for survival as the native americans also?

wtf are you talking about? The native americans did NOT have a desperation for survival. In fact, they were thriving over here (before white men and small pox arrived.) "people who hunt because they will otherwise starve to death and know no better" is incredibly ignorant. It's unfortunate that you have such a poor education.

Furthermore, to think that is a trait of "savages" (which you apparently believe Indians were) to celebrate a successful hunt/harvest, perhaps you're forgetting why most societies have a harvest festival or Thanksgiving. If I'm less evolved because I prefer to think of Thanksgiving as a time to be thankful for the bountiful food that I have available to me, rather than think of it as a time to be thankful that I have a couple of days off and can do some extra shopping on Friday, then so be it.

Or, perhaps your view of hunting has been shaped by watching 1 or 2 hunting shows on television (if you want to call that hunting) which does not represent what the majority of hunting is like, and certainly doesn't depict the amount of physical labor that's involved.
 

bluemax

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2000
7,182
0
0
Hey.... if you go hunting deer with a rocket launcher, you can kill, skin, butcher and barbecue it all in one shot!

BOOM!!!!!
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
heh i find it amusing that anti-hunting people are fine with eating a cheeseburger and letting the deer population waste due to starvation, disease etc. But have a hunter shoot a deer and eat it! oh noo! the savages. LOL

but all this talk about hunting has really made me want some venison or rabbit stew. hmm

/me gets his bow out of storage

hope i get a deer this year (doubtfull that i even get to go this year with my health problems) i really really want some deer jerky, deer sticks and sausage
 

busmaster11

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2000
2,875
0
0
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: dahunan
You forgot the next steps.. pose with the animal you just shot as though you killed it out of bravery or self defense .. or EVEN killed it out of absolute necessity?

I think a man could be proud of making a hard decision and killing animals because we have destroyed the habitat for their normal predators.. but to pose with a dead animals body? and we thought native americans were savages??
Art found from past cultures often included depictions of the hunt. Hunters were glorified by the tribe. What did you expect native Americans to do with their buffalo, pull out the Polaroid? You're ignorant. Beyond ignorant, you're arrogant. Combine those two things, and you're simply an ass.

It's a wasteful, arrogant, decadent country where people think they're brave or they've accomplished something worthing of boasting just by killing an animal for entertainment.

If we are to think we've evolved at all in terms of humanity, there would be no point comparing ourselves to people who hunt because they will otherwise starve to death and know no better.
Just for entertainment? Apparently you missed the part where hunters eat the animals they've killed. Try again sparky.

I guess I also missed the part where they justify hunting by having the same desparation for survival as the native americans also?

wtf are you talking about? The native americans did NOT have a desperation for survival. In fact, they were thriving over here (before white men and small pox arrived.) "people who hunt because they will otherwise starve to death and know no better" is incredibly ignorant. It's unfortunate that you have such a poor education.

Furthermore, to think that is a trait of "savages" (which you apparently believe Indians were) to celebrate a successful hunt/harvest, perhaps you're forgetting why most societies have a harvest festival or Thanksgiving. If I'm less evolved because I prefer to think of Thanksgiving as a time to be thankful for the bountiful food that I have available to me, rather than think of it as a time to be thankful that I have a couple of days off and can do some extra shopping on Friday, then so be it.

Or, perhaps your view of hunting has been shaped by watching 1 or 2 hunting shows on television (if you want to call that hunting) which does not represent what the majority of hunting is like, and certainly doesn't depict the amount of physical labor that's involved.


Native Americans thrived before the europeans arrived because they hunted. If they didn't hunt, they would have starved. Many did not show to be capable or desirous of a purely agrarian settled down type of society. I'm sorry the truth is in conflict with what you thought you learned in grammar school.

You talk about taking the time to be thankful. How patriotic and virtuous. Who are you thankful to? If its not God, its pretty silly. If it is, how would He feel about the following premise?

It's funny that I'm being called ignorant here yet pro-hunters continue to ignore whats really the only point I've been trying to make on this thread. You continue to rehash all the tired old arguments but the only thing it boils down to for me is the ego trip and the hardon you get from killing an animal in a savagte way. Hard work and bravery doesn't mean a thing if its used for a foolish purpose. And if this is what we're doing, we're more savage than any native american culture.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: busmaster11
Originally posted by: BoberFettconfused; The need to eat is directly related to starvation. I'm not really sure I should even bother attempting to talk to you, since you fail to see a relationship in one of the most basic human needs. I'll try to grin and bear it.

Please explain your experiences with your survival being threatened due to starvation recently.

I face starvation every day, as does every living animal on the planet. That's why we eat. You're not very bright are you. Ohhhh, I see, you pray to god. That explains a few things.
 

The Mailman

Senior member
Aug 11, 2006
453
0
0
hunters are pussies

unless you're going in with a machete and taking it on mano e mano

theirs skill, sure, but theres nothing to be proud of if you're using a sniper rifle
 

w00t

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 2004
5,545
0
0
your the one acting like it's bad hunters keep it from overpopulated they regulate how much you can hunt it's not like they waste the animals either. I think it's cool that we still are able to do what our ancestors did back than.

It takes skill to sneak up on an animal and place an accurate shot into it. would you rather the animals die of starvation? disease?
 

ShellGuy

Golden Member
Mar 1, 2004
1,343
0
0
Originally posted by: The Mailman
hunters are pussies

unless you're going in with a machete and taking it on mano e mano

theirs skill, sure, but theres nothing to be proud of if you're using a sniper rifle

I really hope you arn't trying to say that me with my 12ga slug gun is = to a police sniper with a .308 win and a heavy barel and a bipod... As they are no where near the same. Nor is it even gun season yet here, still only Bow Season sorry boys..



Will G.
 
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