What is Linux missing that you would require to complete get off Windows?

[Moonbender]

There are a few important features XP home seems to be missing. Yet another reason I wont purchase it.

Name one out of the ones you listed that my parents (or any other casual user) would miss. Seeing that list, I myself could live without most services listed - it's not like I'd use IIS for a webserver! Oh well.

 

[Nothinman]

Name one out of the ones you listed that my parents (or any other casual user) would miss

Your parents could probably get along fine with a P133 running Win95 or NT 4 so why even install XP?

 

[Moonbender]

That may be as it is, but that's beside the point, which was that there is no feature relevant to the typical home user missing in XP Home compared to XP Pro.

 

[Nothinman]

* Offline Files and folders
* Access controls for files, folders, applications and other resources (NTFS Security features)
* Multi-Language User Interface

Those all seem like options that aren't in XP Home that the average user could find very usefull. The lack of SMP support would suck if they had a P4 with HT.

There is no feature relevant to the typical home user missing in XP compared to NT 4.

So why not save some cash and get a used NT 4 license. Anyway, I still want to see this 'typical home user', all the users I know do different things with their PCs. Sure things like www browsing, email, etc
are there but all of them find other unique things to do.

 

[JackBurton]

Your parents could probably get along fine with a P133 running Win95 or NT 4 so why even install XP?

No they wouldn't. First off, a P133 won't run anything these days (practical apps for the everyday user). Secondly, there is no USB support for either of those OSes. Thirdly, 95 sucks ass in the stability department and NT 4 lacks in the software department. So yes, XP would definitely be better for the typical parent.

 

[JackBurton]

Domain support isn't the only thing missing from Home, I have a SMP system which is worthless with XP Home so I need Pro and that costs $139 if I get the OEM version with hardware or $278 for RETAIL.

That is correct, but SMP support isn't something the average user needs either. Like I said, $90 for an OS isn't overpriced at all, and if you want the Pro version, I think $139 is a fair price.

IME XP isn't user friendly at all, totally new users still stare blankly until you tell them what to do and teach them the basics and older Windows users are just confused because MS moved everything around. I've seen both cases happen multiple times. And I won't consider XP flexible until I can remove IE and replace the system HTML renderer with another component.

Come on man, there is a feature in XP that's called "Classic mode." This makes everything look VERY much W2K, which is what the typical user is accustomed to. And it is very easy to switch from XP to classic. This is what you'd probably get with a new XP user:

new user: "I don't like XP. Everything is just different."

XP user: "Just right click on your toolbar (the blue bar that your Start button is on), go to properties, start menu tab, then click the button 'Classic Start Menu.'"

new user: "OH! Ok, that's MUCH better!"

 

[JackBurton]

We are talking about the average joe here. Someone that cant figure out how to turn a computer on, or whatever the watermark is for the "average joe" these days. Do they know to go to newegg.com and order the OEM version with a floppy cable? No, I dont think they do. I stand by my statement for this reason.

Oh come on dude. If my friend was interested in XP and was thinking about getting XP at BestBuy for $299, I'd say, hey man, check out newegg.com online. They have the Home version for $90 with teh purchase of hardware. Either he could by some CD-R media or a floppy cable. If my friend said he wanted to try Mandrake 8.2 and was looking to pick it up at BestBuy for $80, I'd say, hey man, you can download the ISO for free at Mandrakes site. His next words out of his mouth would be, WTF is an ISO?

 

[Nothinman]

No they wouldn't. First off, a P133 won't run anything these days (practical apps for the everyday user).

Noone ever defined 'practical apps', everyone always says www browsing, email and p2p all of which a P133 would run fine given say 256M of memory. Until someone actually defines what these 'joe user, every day users, practical moms, etc' use this conversation is pointless, well it's pointless anyway but I'm bored =)

Thirdly, 95 sucks ass in the stability department and NT 4 lacks in the software department

The only thing NT 4 won't run that XP and 9X will is D3D games.

Come on man, there is a feature in XP that's called "Classic mode." This makes everything look VERY much W2K, which is what the typical user is accustomed to

I know about the classic theme, I used it instead of the PlaySkool theme for the short time I used XP. But even with that, some things are still in different places. I've watched a new XP users stumble around looking for things, it's not as intuitive or easy to use as people think.

I'd say, hey man, you can download the ISO for free at Mandrakes site. His next words out of his mouth would be, WTF is an ISO?

Then you'd say 'Don't worry about it, you can order a Mandrake CD from cheapbytes.com for $5'.

 

[JackBurton]

Look, the only thing I'm trying to point out here is that XP is MUCH more user friendly than Linux (whatever variant). On top of that, it is super stable. I just don't see how you can deny this. Mac's OS X is another user friendly OS that is VERY nice. But no way is Linux in the same league. What Linux needs is what Apple did with BSD. They took a VERY power platform (BSD), and integrated it with an AWESOME GUI. I just can't say enough about Mac's OS X, it's just awesome! THAT is what Linux needs. MS is the champion now, and you don't beat a champ by being "just as good." You beat a champ by being MUCH better than it. And Linux is just not there...yet.

 

[Nothinman]

ook, the only thing I'm trying to point out here is that XP is MUCH more user friendly than Linux (whatever variant).

The only reason that's true is because most people already have Windows experience. Take a totally new user and give them any computer and you'll have to teach them how to use it, no matter what OS.

MS is the champion now, and you don't beat a champ by being "just as good."

No, in this industry you do it with advertising.

 

[JackBurton]

No, in this industry you do it with advertising.

I agree to a certain extent. However in the battle between Linux, XP and OS X, I don't care if you advertise the sh!t out of Linux, it ain't going to catch on like XP or OS X. Their interfaces (OS X & XP) are just MUCH more refined than Linux. It's as simple as that.

Now if you don't mind, I have to go download Knoppix.

 

[Nothinman]

I don't care if you advertise the sh!t out of Linux, it ain't going to catch on like XP or OS X.

Depends on who the target is. Home users aren't Linux's target, for the most part, and corporations are definately taking notice to Linux because of advertising.

Their interfaces (OS X & XP) are just MUCH more refined than Linux. It's as simple as that.

That's the thing I don't agree with, I personally find WindowMaker much easier to work with than OS X or XP. It's all personal opinion.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Moonbender
There are a few important features XP home seems to be missing. Yet another reason I wont purchase it.

Name one out of the ones you listed that my parents (or any other casual user) would miss. Seeing that list, I myself could live without most services listed - it's not like I'd use IIS for a webserver! Oh well.

NTFS Security. How many posts have we seen on these forums alone where someone is looking for information on keeping pr0n hidden from their parents/spouse/significant other?

Even if it is default security settings, having multiple users with various security ownership and whatnot is a good thing.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

We are talking about the average joe here. Someone that cant figure out how to turn a computer on, or whatever the watermark is for the "average joe" these days. Do they know to go to newegg.com and order the OEM version with a floppy cable? No, I dont think they do. I stand by my statement for this reason.

Oh come on dude. If my friend was interested in XP and was thinking about getting XP at BestBuy for $299, I'd say, hey man, check out newegg.com online. They have the Home version for $90 with teh purchase of hardware. Either he could by some CD-R media or a floppy cable. If my friend said he wanted to try Mandrake 8.2 and was looking to pick it up at BestBuy for $80, I'd say, hey man, you can download the ISO for free at Mandrakes site. His next words out of his mouth would be, WTF is an ISO?

Not all of the Windows newbies out there have a computer genius friend. Hell, I didnt know much about OEM licensing before I started visitting this site. Of course, I have only paid for Windows OSes twice. Both times it came with the computer I bought, since then I havent bothered with Windows

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I don't care if you advertise the sh!t out of Linux, it ain't going to catch on like XP or OS X.

Depends on who the target is. Home users aren't Linux's target, for the most part, and corporations are definately taking notice to Linux because of advertising.

Their interfaces (OS X & XP) are just MUCH more refined than Linux. It's as simple as that.

That's the thing I don't agree with, I personally find WindowMaker much easier to work with than OS X or XP. It's all personal opinion.

OS X is the easiest in my opinion, I havent touched X Windows for a few months just because of the ease of use with my ibook

But yes, this is personal opinion, much like most of the thread.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
Look, the only thing I'm trying to point out here is that XP is MUCH more user friendly than Linux (whatever variant). On top of that, it is super stable. I just don't see how you can deny this. Mac's OS X is another user friendly OS that is VERY nice. But no way is Linux in the same league. What Linux needs is what Apple did with BSD. They took a VERY power platform (BSD), and integrated it with an AWESOME GUI. I just can't say enough about Mac's OS X, it's just awesome! THAT is what Linux needs. MS is the champion now, and you don't beat a champ by being "just as good." You beat a champ by being MUCH better than it. And Linux is just not there...yet.

Why not just make a new port of BSD for x86? Why should Linux be another Windows anyway? Windows does a good enough job of being itself.

 

[BFG10K]

Bug fixes and miniscule new "features" for the wonderful price of $300 every two years isnt a rip off?

Each version of Windows offered many new and significant features. Also I sure as hell didn't pay $300 for any version - not even close.

Acedemic pricing and/or upgrade pricing significantly reduces costs for me, plus there is absolutely no reason to buy every two years if you don't want to. Some machines at work are still chugging along happily with Windows 95.

You can still get a Dell or an IBM machine with linux installed.

Yes and I'm sure they're selling like hotcakes.

I guess variety isnt something that makes you happy...

Fiddling with a cumbersome OS for no benefit at all is not something I consider as variety. Linux offers me absolutely nothing that I want from it. Even though it's a good programmers OS I'd still take Visual Studio running off an NT kernel over Linux's Emacs/GCC/G++ any day of the week.

How do I enable this in Win2k?

I'm not sure exactly how it works in Windows 2000 but I do know the Windows Update feature is available at the root level of the Start Menu. How it compares to Windows XP I'm unsure of.

How do I customize it to only select the critical updates I need that arent full of new bugs Microsoft is introducing to stay in business?

Manually activate it and you'll find the updates sorted in order of importance. Then you can update only the critical parts and leave everything else.

RedHat I believe.

Do you have a link that points to the database of updates so I may see it for myself?

Security updates do exist, but I dont see them to the degree I see Windows updates.

I've seen pages and pages of Linux security issues that have been plugged over the years. Also with 10 times the users Windows will always appear less secure because you've got more users using it (possibly falling victim to incompetence) and more hackers targetting it and trying to break in. If the market share was reversed I'm sure you'd see Linux's exploits balloon.

 

[BFG10K]

If you havn't paid for any of their software then I guess they're not ripping you off, if you do own a license for every piece of their software you own I don't see how you can think otherwise.

See my comment n0cmonkey about this.

It's obviously their right to charge whatever they want for their software, but in my (and many other's I'm sure) opinion most of it is very over priced.

That's your opinion of course and you're perfectly entitled to it. However my opinion is that:

(1) What I get from Windows is more than worth the price I pay for it.
(2) Linux is only free if your time is worthless.

Very partially, I think the AOL comparison pretty much says it all.

AOL might dominate the U.S but it certainly doesn't dominate the world like Microsoft. You can go to any country you like and look at any desktop there and chances are that it's running Windows. You certainly can't say the same about AOL - not even close.

If Windows was as crap, unstable, rip-off, and insecure as some people here would like to believe then surely the world would be plunged into utter chaos as 95% of the world's machines would fall over, one by one? Yet that doesn't happen at all and even in large scale server situations Microsoft have proven themselves to be stable and reliable with competent system admins looking after their systems.

but for the home PCs I'm pretty sure MS won't let them in their OEM licensing.

I can't believe that to be true. Nevertheless, Dell can still bundle free distros of Linux, right? Surely then people would be rushing to wipe their HDs clean as soon as they got home, yes?

No, I think not. For the vast majority of users Linux offers only disadvantages.

And several of those automated updates have already severly broken poeple's machines, real good deal...

Several out of how many hundreds of millions of users? Those are pretty damned good statistics I'd say.

With so many users at least one person having a problem is pretty much a given but it needs to be kept in perspective in terms of total users. Also who knows how flaky those systems were in terms of crappy hardware and installed warez, appz or other junk.

 

[Sunner]

BFG, you seem to be of the oppinon that if an OS isn't the best for gaming, it's not good for anything.

For my grandma, OS-X, Linux, or WinXP wouldnt make the slightest difference cause she doesn't know any of them.
She's running Win98 now, cause it came preinstalled on her box, and since like I said, it wont make a difference, I just let it be.

But if I felt like it, I could have installed Linux with KDE, and shown her how to use Konqueror and KMail, and she'd be set.
But in reality, if I got her a comp today, I would probabaly get her one of the new iMac's(Another computer you seem to hate since it isn't the best gaming platform), since it's small, quiet, and would fit in nicely in her living room.
The fact that OS-X is the best desktop OS in existance would help as well.

For me, Linux comes with a crapload of benefits over Windows, as I actually try to get some work done once in a while.
But I suppose many people only use their computers for gaming and nothing more, really, those people should get a PS2 or something.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Bug fixes and miniscule new "features" for the wonderful price of $300 every two years isnt a rip off?

Each version of Windows offered many new and significant features. Also I sure as hell didn't pay $300 for any version - not even close.

Lucky you. What did WinXP offer that Win2k didnt? And Im talking significant features, not the "confuse older users with the new gui" thing.

Acedemic pricing and/or upgrade pricing significantly reduces costs for me, plus there is absolutely no reason to buy every two years if you don't want to. Some machines at work are still chugging along happily with Windows 95.

You can still get a Dell or an IBM machine with linux installed.

Yes and I'm sure they're selling like hotcakes.

I doubt they are doing poorly.

I guess variety isnt something that makes you happy...

Fiddling with a cumbersome OS for no benefit at all is not something I consider as variety.

I feel the same way about Windows...

Linux offers me absolutely nothing that I want from it. Even though it's a good programmers OS I'd still take Visual Studio running off an NT kernel over Linux's Emacs/GCC/G++ any day of the week.

Me too, but only because Im a vi user

How do I enable this in Win2k?

I'm not sure exactly how it works in Windows 2000 but I do know the Windows Update feature is available at the root level of the Start Menu. How it compares to Windows XP I'm unsure of.

Of course.

How do I customize it to only select the critical updates I need that arent full of new bugs Microsoft is introducing to stay in business?

Manually activate it and you'll find the updates sorted in order of importance. Then you can update only the critical parts and leave everything else.

Again, we go back to manually doing the work. Great.

RedHat I believe.

Do you have a link that points to the database of updates so I may see it for myself?

I could find one for you. Check www.redhat.com, click on the redhat network link. I think thats it, but since you edit the posts a lot, its tough to remember what you dont think exists and Im feeling too lazy to look (much like you are feeling to lazy to look at redhat.com)

Security updates do exist, but I dont see them to the degree I see Windows updates.

I've seen pages and pages of Linux security issues that have been plugged over the years.

Ill play semantics for a minute. Do you mean linux or *nix programs (possibly gnu tools)?

Also with 10 times the users Windows will always appear less secure because you've got more users using it (possibly falling victim to incompetence) and more hackers targetting it and trying to break in. If the market share was reversed I'm sure you'd see Linux's exploits balloon.

And we saw a rise in linux breakins. We're back to the same microsoft crap now.. Im still seeing CODE RED!!!! its over a *YEAR* old now!

 

[BFG10K]

Gaming is only part of it. I get far more work done on Windows because I don't have to struggle with a crappy GUI, a command line, a lack of programs, sifting through man pages just to do something as simple as using a floppy disk or working with programs whose interface is absolutely attrocious. Also something as simple, stable and feature-rich as Microsoft Office does not exist on Linux (don't even bother mentioning the bloated and unstable office clones).

For my grandma, OS-X, Linux, or WinXP wouldnt make the slightest difference cause she doesn't know any of them.

It most certainly would make a difference if your Grandma wanted to create a new dial-up networking connection, wanted to install a printer or scanner, or wanted to use a floppy disk drive. Also if your Grandma wanted universal copy/paste between her email browser and her spreadsheet program (for example) she'd have big problems, problems that don't exist under Windows when programs use OLE to universally link objects between different programs (Microsoft's Office is a superb example) and because of Windows' global clipboard.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

If you havn't paid for any of their software then I guess they're not ripping you off, if you do own a license for every piece of their software you own I don't see how you can think otherwise.

See my comment n0cmonkey about this.

It's obviously their right to charge whatever they want for their software, but in my (and many other's I'm sure) opinion most of it is very over priced.

That's your opinion of course and you're perfectly entitled to it. However my opinion is that:

(1) What I get from Windows is more than worth the price I pay for it.

Thats actually pretty cool.

(2) Linux is only free if your time is worthless.

My time is worth a good deal of money, so I chose linux/OpenBSD/FreeBSD/Mac OS X for my machines. I have work to do, no games, no Microsoft

Very partially, I think the AOL comparison pretty much says it all.

AOL might dominate the U.S but it certainly doesn't dominate the world like Microsoft.

Whoa whoa whoa! Name another ISP you can get a connection to no matter which country you are in. Thats pretty dominant.

You can go to any country you like and look at any desktop there and chances are that it's running Windows. You certainly can't say the same about AOL - not even close.

Can I pick the country and desktop? A quick email to someone I kinda know, and he can tell me atleast one or two areas where *AOL* is the only isp.

If Windows was as crap, unstable, rip-off, and insecure as some people here would like to believe then surely the world would be plunged into utter chaos as 95% of the world's machines would fall over, one by one? Yet that doesn't happen at all and even in large scale server situations Microsoft have proven themselves to be stable and reliable with competent system admins looking after their systems.

Thats the key, competant admins. There arent enough of them. BTW, the latest security bug in Microsoft's awesome OS is based on netbeui. Didnt they basically invent that protocol because they dont like standards?

but for the home PCs I'm pretty sure MS won't let them in their OEM licensing.

I can't believe that to be true. Nevertheless, Dell can still bundle free distros of Linux, right? Surely then people would be rushing to wipe their HDs clean as soon as they got home, yes?

No, I think not. For the vast majority of users Linux offers only disadvantages.

For Microsoft educated lusers yes.

And several of those automated updates have already severly broken poeple's machines, real good deal...

Several out of how many hundreds of millions of users? Those are pretty damned good statistics I'd say.

And yes, every Microsoft user that updates their software comes here to bitch when it breaks.

With so many users at least one person having a problem is pretty much a given but it needs to be kept in perspective in terms of total users. Also who knows how flaky those systems were in terms of crappy hardware and installed warez, appz or other junk.

Junk like media player and ie.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Gaming is only part of it. I get far more work done on Windows because I don't have to struggle with a crappy GUI, a command line, a lack of programs, sifting through man pages just to do something as simple as using a floppy disk or working with programs whose interface is absolutely attrocious. Also something as simple, stable and feature-rich as Microsoft Office does not exist on Linux (don't even bother mentioning the bloated and unstable office clones).

For my grandma, OS-X, Linux, or WinXP wouldnt make the slightest difference cause she doesn't know any of them.

It most certainly would make a difference if your Grandma wanted to create a new dial-up networking connection, wanted to install a printer or scanner, or wanted to use a floppy disk drive. Also if your Grandma wanted universal copy/paste between her email browser and her spreadsheet program (for example) she'd have big problems, problems that don't exist under Windows when programs use OLE to universally link objects between different programs (Microsoft's Office is a superb example) and because of Windows' global clipboard.

A command line isn't crappy just cause don't know how to use it.
The guy sitting in front of me doesn't know much about Windows, but a crapload about Solaris and IRIX, as well as many other things related to them, I guess that means Windows sucks just cause he isn't very familiar with it.

As for my grandma, she can't setup a dial up connection in Win98, WinXP, Linux, or any other OS, nor setup a printer or anything else, nor does she have the need to, I set it all up for her in the first place, she just uses it from there.
As for copy and paste, like I said, if I setup a Linux box for her, I'd setup KDE on it, where you have the same copy and paste functionality as in Windows(ctrl-c/x/v).
And yes, KDE does have a global clipboard.

You're obviously speaking of things that you don't have a clue about.

 

[BFG10K]

What did WinXP offer that Win2k didnt?

-Driver rollback.
-System restore.
-Native CD burning.
-Native zip support.
-More low level control of devices in the device manager.
-Large icons.
-More system options and controls.
-Native firewall and wireless network support.
-SIMD optimisations for Pentium4 and Athlon/Palomino processors.
-Enhanced multitasking performance.
-Remote desktop and remote assistance.
-Enhanced multimedia and gaming performance and compatibility.

Again, we go back to manually doing the work. Great.

As opposed to the distros having...no form of update at all?

Besides, the manual update is so easy even a monkey can manage it. Also it's automatic by default except only your nitpicks keep it from being so.

I think thats it, but since you edit the posts a lot,

LOL, the post you responded to didn't even have an edit tag. That' reaching, even for you. Sad and reaching.

Do you mean linux or *nix programs (possibly gnu tools)?

And do you mean Windows or IIS?

Im still seeing CODE RED!!!! its over a *YEAR* old now!

Only the most incompetent admin would be seeing that now. In fact IIRC there was a patch for the exploit behind Code Red 6 months before it even hit the world.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Gaming is only part of it. I get far more work done on Windows because I don't have to struggle with a crappy GUI, a command line, a lack of programs, sifting through man pages just to do something as simple as using a floppy disk or working with programs whose interface is absolutely attrocious. Also something as simple, stable and feature-rich as Microsoft Office does not exist on Linux (don't even bother mentioning the bloated and unstable office clones).

Gaming is easy on my ps2! Which leaves me plenty of time to get work done on my Mac OS X, Linux, OpenBSD, or FreeBSD machines. I dont have to spend time loading a bunch of crappy drivers, working with a crappy gui, or an unendowed cli, lack of decent programs that I can customize to my liking, sifting through unhelpful bloated help guis when all I want to do is patch my machine. I wont even get into antivirus and firewalling! And how can any OS in 2002 not come with a decent text editor?! Where is vi? How can I get work done without a good text editor? What about an ssh client? Telnet? I dont think so.

For my grandma, OS-X, Linux, or WinXP wouldnt make the slightest difference cause she doesn't know any of them.

It most certainly would make a difference if your Grandma wanted to create a new dial-up networking connection,

Very easy in kppp.

wanted to install a printer or scanner, or wanted to use a floppy disk drive.

There is a floppy icon.

Also if your Grandma wanted universal copy/paste between her email browser and her spreadsheet program (for example) she'd have big problems,

Highlight middle click is a problem? Its always worked for me in just about everything.

problems that don't exist under Windows when programs use OLE to universally link objects between different programs (Microsoft's Office is a superb example) and because of Windows' global clipboard.

And thankfullly Microsoft opened up some documentation to some of its apis! Oh wait... That documentation was incomplete and incorrect... D'oh! Lets look at the source! Wait, to get that I have to contact some Russian hacker group... Never mind.