What is Oblivion like...?

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rangda

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Nov 20, 2006
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I've played all 3 extensively and honestly I don't think either are better than the other; they are just very different. (Disclaimer: At one point I was part of the PRC Consortium which makes a big spell/class mod for NWN 1.)

NWN is a real time port of d20, because of the real time combat (to facilitate multiplayer) it plays a bit loose with the d20 ruleset. If you go into it expecting an exact recreation of the pnp d20 experience you'd be very disappointed. However, as an action variant of d20 both NWN 1 & 2 do a credible job. Like the pnp game the idea is to create the experience of letting the player(s) play through a module. As a port of the pnp module concept, things typically get broken down into areas, and the game becomes very scene specific. Not too many modules let you just wander all over exploring; you are acting out a plot which has already been created and is (to a point) somewhat rigid. NWN uses a mixture of voice acting and text; some places (usually cutscenes) have voice acted scenes but many places (and almost all mods) just use text.

Technically NWN 2 has a lot more glitz than NWN 2; but the default NPC AI in NWN 1 is superior to NWN 2, and there were AI mods for NWN 1 that would blow NWN 2's AI away (I haven't seen a NWN 2 AI mod but I haven't looked either). NWN 1's graphic engine is tile based which definitely shows; NWN 2 is not tile based so the areas look much better (but I have heard are much harder to make which will definately impact availability of mods). The UI's are slightly different, playing primiarily a caster I find the NWN 2 UI much better than NWN 1 but YMMV. For drawbacks the camera in both games is EXTREMELY irritating, I spend far too much time rotating the camera to get a proper view and with the standard mouse/keyboard controls it's very hard to do while moving around.

Content wise, for NWN 1 I have to say that the original campaign is very weak, Hordes of the Underdark is by far the best of the expansions. I've played far too many modules to count; but some of them far exceed anything done by Bioware in terms of storyline (but may be a bit rough around the edged technically). For NWN 1, the best stuff really is in the user created content. I haven't played NWN 1 in a couple of years, but the one set of modules I do recall are the Shadowlords/Dreamcatcher series by Adam Miller. Absolutely brilliant stuff. The NWN 2 story starts out GREAT, good story and plot development, interesting characters (mostly), good progression. However it starts to break down after you are about 2/3 of the way through and it totally falls apart at the end where it gets really cosmic. It's like you start out as a hero fighting pickpockets and muggers and at the end you are fighting Galactus. The "good" ending to the story (there are separate good and evil endings) is also the worst ending I have ever seen in my 25+ years of playing videogames. I wanted to smash my keyboard after watching it.

Oblivion on the other hand, is a totally different game concept wise. On the surface it appears to be somewhat similar, being a fantasy RPG. But that is where the similarities end. Oblivion is much more open ended; it is an exploration game not a story telling game. Where NWN tries to take you through a story (letting you influence it slightly) Oblivion dumps you into a world, pats you on the head, and wishes you luck. You are free to explore the world and do pretty much whatever you want. There are plot threads in the world, each of which is like a NWN module in that they are a story that you play though, but unlike NWN that isn't the point of Oblivion. Oblivion is designed to be a single player FPS game, so you wander around in first (or 3rd) person in the world and you are pretty much the center of the universe as far as the game is concerned. Combat is very action oriented, it's fairly straightforward point and click but it can get pretty frantic when you start fighting multiple opponents. You may have people join you from time to time and you may participate in group battles but it's really always about you. This contrasts with NWN where it's really about the party ("party" may be just you and a henchman or a full blown party of 5+ depending on the module you are playing). In Oblivion everything talks; nothing is done purely with text. This is good in that it helps bring the world to life. It's also bad in that they only have 1 voice actor for each race (all breton's have the same voice, etc.) and the quality of the voice acting varies from decent to horrible. And you will learn to despise phrases you hear far too much (Oblivion players will shudder at the thought of "You do me too much honor"). Like NWN (assuming modules support it) the game has a crafting system for you to make your own magic items. Unlike NWN the game also lets you make your own spells. Game balance on the player crafted items is poor, you can break the game (break as in making the entire game trivial) with certain gear or spell combinations. For example, 100% chameleon will make you totally invisible to the game's actors no matter what you do; and this is achievable with player created magic items.

Content wise Oblivion is loaded with places to explore and things to do but is pretty lacking in plot driven story based content. There are quests lines for the Arena, Thieve's Guild, Assassin's Guild (Dark Brotherhood), Fighter's Guild, and Mage's Guild. There is also the main quest, and a ton of little one off quests scattered throughout the cities, towns, and hamlet's of the world. Some are of standard "go get this thing for me" or "kill these creatures/people for me" but there are many that go beyond that. Some quests may require you to do some spying, tailing, and b&e to gather evidence. Expansions add a quest for the Knights of the Nine (save the world a second time in case once in the main quest wasn't enough for you) and the Shivering Isles storyline (taking place on an alternate plane). Honestly if anything I think there is too much content for one character to really experience.

Because Oblivion is really an exploration game, the game levels the content to you. So instead of having an NPC be level 5 he is defined to be your level +/- some number. So if the shopkeeper is defined to be 1 level higher than you he's always 1 level higher than you regardless of what level you are. This allows you to do the content of the game in any order, but it makes things somewhat infuriating in that it removes the feeling of accomplishment you get from levelling as nothing (including bandits and woodland creatures) ever becomes trivial content. If you find this infuriating (and many do) there are mods that turn off the levelling of the world.

In some ways Oblivion is almost like a MMO without the other players.

Technically Oblivion is vastly superior. If you have the hardware to drive it, the world can look very lush and really come to life. If you don't have the hardware for it, it can kill your PC (I have it on my son's 1.8 P4 / 6600 and even at 640x480 low settings it's not really playable). The game is particularly finicky about hardware, certain people seem to have trouble getting it to be stable for no apparent reason. It hates on-board audio; it really seems to want to have hardware accelerated audio (unless you have overkill CPU power).

So the $64 question is which would you like better? If you like story driven games and want to feel like you are part of a story then you are going to like NWN 1/2 better (and NWN 1 is probably the better of those at the moment due to all the mod content). If you prefer a more action oriented game and like to explore vast areas then you will like Oblivion better.

And I think for you to get the best from either you really need to seek out mods; as they greatly enhance either game.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Ummm, dude, you need to lay off the coke (I know you wont just because you ask, but I feel the need to ask anyway).

I dont know where you got all the anti-NWN2 statements from, but I never said it was a great game by comparison or even a decent game on its own.
I was just making a comment on ol' boys' list of complaints which was strictly about Oblivion.
And even if he missed the depth I sure didnt, I was the leader of every guild and group and then beat the two expansions when they came out. I also took care of each and every shrine quest and most of the random walking-around/people-come-up-and-talk-to-you-type quests. They all sort of meld together after a while.

And NO mod makes the console/menu the way I want it. (I am assuming you meant menu when you said console.) I want the Morrowind menu and have not found anything close to it yet. Plus, we shouldnt NEED mods just to make a game playable.

And your so-called BS level system works a hell of a lot better than the way they did in Oblivion, if its done right.
A game where you struggle to kill rats one minute and become a god the next minute is NOT balanced properly. Thats not a problem with the leveling its a problem with how the monsters and quests are layed out. Proper balance (which happened with the earlier Final Fantasy games and the Baldurs Gate games) makes sure you always have a little bit of challenge throughout, but you still get benefits from being a higher level.
You cant achieve that kind of balance with "Level-with-you" system. Its not possible.
And Morrowind let you approach the game any way you wanted while still having a normal level system. If you were at level 1 and went straight for a dungeon rumored to have ascended sleepers or golden saints or were careless enough to attack imperial guards then you were just asking to get yourself killed. Theres a crapload of stuff for a level 1 character to do that isnt automatic suicide.
The game balance comes from the creators and while I admit its not an easy thing to achieve, it IS possible.

Final Fantasy games dont normally let you get in over your head but the reason many of us like Elder Scrolls more is because we dont see those kinds of limitations.
 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
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Originally posted by: apoppin

baldurs gate
baldurs gate tales of sword coast
baldurs gate 2
baldurs gate 2 throne of bhaal
planescape torment
fallout
fallout 2

I am sure you have played them but what the hell I have to mention em.

well, i really fell bad for the "pure" D&D RPGers ... there isn't really anything good in a long long time

however, if you can look beyond it's faults - Oblivion - has at least 50 hours of absolutely top-notch story and game play - for a "Fantasy-Adventure Hybrid RPG" ...

[/quote]

Agreed on the pure D&Ders, the company left us hanging. However, I find the story behind the main quest in Oblivion too far fetched, even beyond the concept of vampires, demons, trolls, etc.

The Emperor himself is responsible for keeping the gates to hell closed, and when his heir takes over, he becomes the avatar of a god to fight the demon prince. Bah!

It's all the other quests that are fun, and going into hell to close a gate is cool, but I've gotten a little leary and weary of dungeon crawling.

I have SI, but haven't started it yet.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: aCynic2
Originally posted by: apoppin

baldurs gate
baldurs gate tales of sword coast
baldurs gate 2
baldurs gate 2 throne of bhaal
planescape torment
fallout
fallout 2

I am sure you have played them but what the hell I have to mention em.

well, i really fell bad for the "pure" D&D RPGers ... there isn't really anything good in a long long time

however, if you can look beyond it's faults - Oblivion - has at least 50 hours of absolutely top-notch story and game play - for a "Fantasy-Adventure Hybrid RPG" ...
Agreed on the pure D&Ders, the company left us hanging. However, I find the story behind the main quest in Oblivion too far fetched, even beyond the concept of vampires, demons, trolls, etc.

The Emperor himself is responsible for keeping the gates to hell closed, and when his heir takes over, he becomes the avatar of a god to fight the demon prince. Bah!

It's all the other quests that are fun, and going into hell to close a gate is cool, but I've gotten a little leary and weary of dungeon crawling.

I have SI, but haven't started it yet.

No .. no ... no

that is NOT the story of Oblivion ... the Emperor was "replaced" until the day you meet him ... the day he was to die
--you need to read the 5 volume in-game book "The Real Berezeniah", about 200 pages, overall, that sets the Background for "Story of You, the Hero Of Cyrodiil" and explains *why* the gods and the entire Oblivion universe waits on you

. . . there is real depth even in the Story .. it is a great story continuing the TES universe ... but you must DIG for it. If you approach Oblivion superficially - like a "pure fps", you will get a superficial reward ... i got over 1,000 of good gameplay out of it ... way more "depth" then the "story by committee" disaster that is NWN2

and i don't know what to say Shorty, Oblivion doesn't work the way you describe it ... ONLY A FEW nps actually level with you - and you can easily take them out if you know the "legal cheats" [wabbajack/chameleon]
 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
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Originally posted by: apoppin
No .. no ... no

that is NOT the story of Oblivion ... the Emperor was "replaced" until the day you meet him ... the day he was to die
--you need to read the 5 volume in-game book "The Real Berezeniah", about 200 pages, overall, that sets the Background for "Story of You, the Hero Of Cyrodiil" and explains *why* the gods and the entire Oblivion universe waits on you

. . . there is real depth even in the Story .. it is a great story continuing the TES universe ... but you must DIG for it. If you approach Oblivion superficially - like a "pure fps", you will get a superficial reward ... i got over 1,000 of good gameplay out of it ... way more "depth" then the "story by committee" disaster that is NWN2

Sorry man, this is definitely a "whatever' case. The game is fun to play through, but the story and general lack of personality doesn't motivate me to read any background.

I tried it once, with BG and the avatar series (which provided backgorund for the game) and decided from then on, I will not read any story based on a game or game character that I did not write myself. Even the Drizz't novels sucked.


 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: aCynic2
Originally posted by: apoppin
No .. no ... no

that is NOT the story of Oblivion ... the Emperor was "replaced" until the day you meet him ... the day he was to die
--you need to read the 5 volume in-game book "The Real Berezeniah", about 200 pages, overall, that sets the Background for "Story of You, the Hero Of Cyrodiil" and explains *why* the gods and the entire Oblivion universe waits on you

. . . there is real depth even in the Story .. it is a great story continuing the TES universe ... but you must DIG for it. If you approach Oblivion superficially - like a "pure fps", you will get a superficial reward ... i got over 1,000 of good gameplay out of it ... way more "depth" then the "story by committee" disaster that is NWN2

Sorry man, this is definitely a "whatever' case. The game is fun to play through, but the story and general lack of personality doesn't motivate me to read any background.

I tried it once, with BG and the avatar series (which provided backgorund for the game) and decided from then on, I will not read any story based on a game or game character that I did not write myself. Even the Drizz't novels sucked.

ALL these 'books' are all found "in-game" ... many many hundreds of pages of reading for those *interested* in Oblivion's background and details of everyday 'things', life, legends and background

and some of this writing is top-notch fantasy adventure ... great stories to read
 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
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0
Originally posted by: apoppin
and some of this writing is top-notch fantasy adventure ... great stories to read

I don't agree. It's at best mediocre.

If you want to read really good fantasy, read Lieber or Dunsany. These are two names that helped make fantasy a viable genre, like Lovecraft helped make the modern horror story with the concept of monsters and alien incursions viable, Garcia-Marquez made magical realism a viable genre, etc.


 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: aCynic2
Originally posted by: apoppin
and some of this writing is top-notch fantasy adventure ... great stories to read

I don't agree. It's at best mediocre.

If you want to read really good fantasy, read Lieber or Dunsany. These are two names that helped make fantasy a viable genre, like Lovecraft helped make the modern horror story with the concept of monsters and alien incursions viable, Garcia-Marquez made magical realism a viable genre, etc.

first of all, did you read "the Real Berezeniah" ? ... there are 2 copies ... the "real" story and the false one.
-or even 1/4 of the many dozens of in-game books that add up to probably over 1,000 pages ... SOME of it is top notch

i KNOW good fantasy ... for over 40 years .. now tell me JRR Tolkien is not a good fantasy writer
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: aCynic2
Originally posted by: apoppin
i KNOW good fantasy .. now tell me JRR Tolkien is not good fantasy

I liked the story, yawned at the style.

so we don't even agree on the basics ... no prob, i have nothing further to add to you.

i really liked Oblivion and hated NWN2 ...

big deal ... different strokes for different folks
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Originally posted by: aCynic2


I tried it once, with BG and the avatar series (which provided backgorund for the game) and decided from then on, I will not read any story based on a game or game character that I did not write myself. Even the Drizz't novels sucked.

Eh? You do know that Salvatore created the character of Drizzt with the intention of him never being a playable character? He didn't appear in a game, console or PC, until well after Salvatore wrote the IWD Trilogy. Heck, he wasn't even intended to be the main character in that series. He was supposed to be the side kick for Wulgar. It was his popularity that led him to become possibly the most popular D&D character ever created. And some of the novels around him are among the best fantasy novels ever written. The Dark Elf Trilogy and IWD Trilogy were both excellent. The rest of the books about him were good, and the most recent Hunter's Blade Trilogy had their moments. I have mixed feelings about those though. Wish Salvatore would write another book in his Highwayman Corona novels.

I also wanted to comment on some of apoppin's posts, but there's far to many to quote and I don't have enough time to type up everything.

Compare the mods that the NWN2 community has created then compare the mods that the Oblivion community has created. Not to insult either community, but the tools in NWN2 were made with the intend of designing entirely new games as well as reskinning and modding the existing game. NWN2 already features dozens of modules that were more fun than Oblivion was. The bulk of Oblivion's mods are focused on improving the game's already gorgeous graphics, the craptacular UI, adding more armor looks, adding more weapon looks, things of that nature. I have yet to see a single total conversation modules for Oblivion, and already there are a few NWN2 mods that feature almost entirely their own content, with dozens more on the horizon.

NWN2's toolset isn't easy to use, and I think Obsidian could have made it more user friendly without sacrificing its power, but on the whole, its geared for a lot more than what the Oblivion tools were made for.

To create an analogy, Oblivion is QBasic. NWN2 is C++.

And I wanted to comment on the story lines in the games. While both had their flaws, NWN2 comes out on top, if only for being more than 'Demons from hell are invading, stop them!'

Others mock NWN2's characters and dialogue, while Oblivion had none. The only companions you had in Oblivion came from mods, which completely unbalanced the game and made it even easier than it already was. The only dialogue in Oblivion came from the same half dozen voice actors that likely weekend janitors. Had to pay for Patrick Stewart's fee somehow.

This is something I find amusing myself. People always clamor for deeper characters, characters that you can emotionally relate to, characters that have opinions and speak up for themselves, who will ditch your party if your goals are not compatible with their's; but when a developer attempts to create a game with characters like that, they get flamed by people who seem to want Diablo 2 style, cookie cutter henchman with absolutely no personality to speak of. This is part of the general dumbing down of RPGs in general, as well as publishers wanting $$$ and trying to get it by copying the most successful games on the market.

Even in the case of NWN1 and 2, the OC's were nothing to write home about. But they were never intended to be. They were intended to do two things. 1) Demonstrate what the toolset could do, and 2) Occupy your time while the community creates other modules. NWN2 modules like Dark Waters, Tragedy in Tragidor, Pool of Radiance Remastered, The Final Journey, Passage West, Dawn of the Mind's Eye, Temple of Torm, Nestlehaven, Subtlety of Thay, and the upcoming Planescape Trilogy are what will eventually propel NWN2 into the top RPG games ever created.
 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
0
0
Originally posted by: Bateluer
Originally posted by: aCynic2


I tried it once, with BG and the avatar series (which provided backgorund for the game) and decided from then on, I will not read any story based on a game or game character that I did not write myself. Even the Drizz't novels sucked.

Eh? You do know that Salvatore created the character of Drizzt with the intention of him never being a playable character? He didn't appear in a game, console or PC, until well after Salvatore wrote the IWD Trilogy. Heck, he wasn't even intended to be the main character in that series. He was supposed to be the side kick for Wulgar. It was his popularity that led him to become possibly the most popular D&D character ever created. And some of the novels around him are among the best fantasy novels ever written. The Dark Elf Trilogy and IWD Trilogy were both excellent. The rest of the books about him were good, and the most recent Hunter's Blade Trilogy had their moments. I have mixed feelings about those though. Wish Salvatore would write another book in his Highwayman Corona novels.

That's all interesting, but inconsequential to the point. Remember, the character, the world and all surrounding it is still based on AD&D.

So, back to the point, all stories based on a game or a character from game, suck or at best, mediocre.

And the idea of among the best, qualify that. Who said that? Siskel and Ebert? You? Who? Because my opinion is they are at best, ok. Among the best? No.

I read the first, and it was mediocre. The author at one point described Drizz't's swirling scimitars as "a blender of death." Pheh! A blender of death...oh man! Nevermind that blenders don't exist in medievil fantasy, where would you plug in a blender? Maybe Elminster has something. Let's petition the king for an electical infrastructure so we can qualify the blender statement.

They were ok, but I couldn't bring myself to read after the first book.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Bateluer

I also wanted to comment on some of apoppin's posts, but there's far to many to quote and I don't have enough time to type up everything.
you did comment; we have gone over and over this many times for many many months. it appears - with no insult to either of us, that we prefer very different TYPES of RPG-games. You consider yourself a "purist" .. but i say that form of gaming you so admire is long-dead

Compare the mods that the NWN2 community has created then compare the mods that the Oblivion community has created. Not to insult either community, but the tools in NWN2 were made with the intend of designing entirely new games as well as reskinning and modding the existing game. NWN2 already features dozens of modules that were more fun than Oblivion was. The bulk of Oblivion's mods are focused on improving the game's already gorgeous graphics, the craptacular UI, adding more armor looks, adding more weapon looks, things of that nature. I have yet to see a single total conversation modules for Oblivion, and already there are a few NWN2 mods that feature almost entirely their own content, with dozens more on the horizon.
You always talk about the future ... i am SO looking forward to a SINGLE good NWN2 mature and polished campaign ... care to point me to ONE ..

and there ARE total conversions for Oblivion - OOO comes to mind and you are totally IGNORING Komiko's Manor which has probably 100 hours of play - DIFFERENT monsters and bosses and changed AI ... ALSO the 4 mods by the author of 'tower of the lich king' ... i am certain you are NO expert on Oblivion and are totally ignorant of the many conversions, mods and campaigns ... i AM ... or was ... when i was very active on the TES forums
... you are expert on things NWN and i look to you to provide thoae details


NWN2's toolset isn't easy to use, and I think Obsidian could have made it more user friendly without sacrificing its power, but on the whole, its geared for a lot more than what the Oblivion tools were made for.

To create an analogy, Oblivion is QBasic. NWN2 is C++.

And I wanted to comment on the story lines in the games. While both had their flaws, NWN2 comes out on top, if only for being more than 'Demons from hell are invading, stop them!'

Others mock NWN2's characters and dialogue, while Oblivion had none. The only companions you had in Oblivion came from mods, which completely unbalanced the game and made it even easier than it already was. The only dialogue in Oblivion came from the same half dozen voice actors that likely weekend janitors. Had to pay for Patrick Stewart's fee somehow.
They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT games ... Oblivion is NOT "supposed to" have a party ... it is SINGLE PLAYER ... designed as such. AND SI *fixed* your dialog problems
This is something I find amusing myself. People always clamor for deeper characters, characters that you can emotionally relate to, characters that have opinions and speak up for themselves, who will ditch your party if your goals are not compatible with their's; but when a developer attempts to create a game with characters like that, they get flamed by people who seem to want Diablo 2 style, cookie cutter henchman with absolutely no personality to speak of. This is part of the general dumbing down of RPGs in general, as well as publishers wanting $$$ and trying to get it by copying the most successful games on the market.

Even in the case of NWN1 and 2, the OC's were nothing to write home about. But they were never intended to be. They were intended to do two things. 1) Demonstrate what the toolset could do, and 2) Occupy your time while the community creates other modules. NWN2 modules like Dark Waters, Tragedy in Tragidor, Pool of Radiance Remastered, The Final Journey, Passage West, Dawn of the Mind's Eye, Temple of Torm, Nestlehaven, Subtlety of Thay, and the upcoming Planescape Trilogy are what will eventually propel NWN2 into the top RPG games ever created.
NWN2's characters and story are SUPPOSED the be the "thing" in D&D RPGs .. and it was DULL dull D-U-L-L .. they only developed a couple of characters and you could see every juvenile plot twist telegraphed from 100 miles away.
At least Oblivions was "true" to being a "Fantasy-adventure SP RPG". NWN2 was a failure in every way as a "true D&D storydriven party RPG" .. linear AND dull.
:thumbsdown:

 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
NWN2's characters and story are SUPPOSED the be the "thing" in D&D RPGs .. and it was DULL dull D-U-L-L .. they only developed a couple of characters and you could see every juvenile plot twist telegraphed from 100 miles away.
At least Oblivions was "true" to being a "Fantasy-adventure SP RPG". NWN2 was a failure in every way as a "true D&D storydriven party RPG" .. linear AND dull.
:thumbsdown:


I'm not sure where you ever got that idea. At least NWN was marketed primarily as MP. That's what they held out as the principle feature. Redesignability was #2, if not #1. The SP campaign was always like #3 or 4 on the list, if not lower.

I have no experience with NWN2. As co-op MP, I think NWN could have done much better, with more critical thinking, but as persistent world, it was destined for failure because D&D was never designed for PW, accept as it applies to a co-op MP.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: aCynic2
Originally posted by: apoppin
NWN2's characters and story are SUPPOSED the be the "thing" in D&D RPGs .. and it was DULL dull D-U-L-L .. they only developed a couple of characters and you could see every juvenile plot twist telegraphed from 100 miles away.
At least Oblivions was "true" to being a "Fantasy-adventure SP RPG". NWN2 was a failure in every way as a "true D&D storydriven party RPG" .. linear AND dull.
:thumbsdown:


I'm not sure where you ever got that idea. At least NWN was marketed primarily as MP. That's what they held out as the principle feature. Redesignability was #2, if not #1. The SP campaign was always like #3 or 4 on the list, if not lower.

I have no experience with NWN2. As co-op MP, I think NWN could have done much better, with more critical thinking, but as persistent world, it was destined for failure because D&D was never designed for PW, accept as it applies to a co-op MP.
what idea? [in bold]

i am talking SOLELY about NWN2 vs. Oblivion ... not NWN vs. Morrowind .. so i don't know where you are getting that idea

and i believe Oblivion should not be compared to NWN2 anymore than apples can be compared to oranges ... sure, they are both fruit and these games are both "RPGs"

but at the respective ends of their spectrums

and i am SO looking forward to my first good NWN2 campaign ... i have experienced many dozens of hours of further campaigns since Oblivion was released last Spring .. about half of the of the good ones were free.
 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
0
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: aCynic2
Originally posted by: apoppin
NWN2's characters and story are SUPPOSED the be the "thing" in D&D RPGs .. and it was DULL dull D-U-L-L .. they only developed a couple of characters and you could see every juvenile plot twist telegraphed from 100 miles away.
At least Oblivions was "true" to being a "Fantasy-adventure SP RPG". NWN2 was a failure in every way as a "true D&D storydriven party RPG" .. linear AND dull.
:thumbsdown:


I'm not sure where you ever got that idea. At least NWN was marketed primarily as MP. That's what they held out as the principle feature. Redesignability was #2, if not #1. The SP campaign was always like #3 or 4 on the list, if not lower.

Man, this is quickly becoming a conversation with a wall.

1. You said, "NWN2's characters and story are SUPPOSED the be the "thing" in D&D RPGs." I can't believe you forgot that or couldn't make the connection between what you said and what I responded with.

2. I NEVER compared NWN and Oblivion. I only said I found the story in Oblivion a bit far fetched. If you look back on my first post in this thread, I said they were two totally different types of games, with different game machanics. Story wise, one fantasy is the same as any other. They have monsters and magicians and knights and damsels in distress and what not. It's the writing that makes it and in that regard, Oblivion == NWN. They both suck in the writing as it tranlates to gameplay.



 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: aCynic2

Man, this is quickly becoming a conversation with a wall.

1. You said, "NWN2's characters and story are SUPPOSED the be the "thing" in D&D RPGs." I can't believe you forgot that or couldn't make the connection between what you said and what I responded with.

2. I NEVER compared NWN and Oblivion. I only said I found the story in Oblivion a bit far fetched. If you look back on my first post in this thread, I said they were two totally different types of games, with different game machanics. Story wise, one fantasy is the same as any other. They have monsters and magicians and knights and damsels in distress and what not. It's the writing that makes it and in that regard, Oblivion == NWN. They both suck in the writing as it tranlates to gameplay.
that is how i feel about you

this is supposed to be a comparison ... look at the topic & summary:
What is Oblivion like...? compared to NWN,NWN2.

i still believe NWN2's success is dependent on "story" ... unlike Oblivion's success which is dependent on "adventure" ... Oblivion succeeds, NWN2 falls flat in THAT regard.



 

aCynic2

Senior member
Apr 28, 2007
710
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Originally posted by: apoppin
this is supposed to be a comparison ... look at the topic & summary:
What is Oblivion like...? compared to NWN,NWN2.

If I asked you what a garden salad is like, compared to a toasted cheese sandwich, is that a fair comparison?

Oblivion is marketed as an RPG. Look at any review site or seller. It's catergorized as an RPG.

Dialo is considered an adventure game.

However, NWN was made to be remade, with a different story, over and over, first and foremost. Oblivion is the same story, the same events.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Originally posted by: apoppin
DM M&M is marketed as a RPG ... So what?

Dark Messiah is also part of the dumbing down of RPGs today. Its a FPS, played in 3rd person some of the time, with RPG like elements. Its a growing trend in FPS games these days. Some FPS are 'smarting up' while RPGs are dumbing down.

Still not too sure where you believe that only a few NWN2 characters were developed. They were also developed, however its extremely difficult to develop them all in the course of one game. They have different alignments and opinions. Try build your influence with Bishop and Casavir at the same time. Thats not pretty.

Originally posted by: apoppin
AND SI *fixed* your dialog problems

Explain. I haven't played SI, but from the screen shots I've seen, the dialogue is the same way. I click on a single word and the NPC responds as if I asked a complete question. Try going up to someone at the supermarket and saying the word 'Gossip' and waiting for a response.

As you pointed out though, the style of gameplay that I enjoy is dying out. Its also a victim of the dumbing down and consolization of gaming today.


Edit again -

This the mod you were referring too?

http://elderscrolls.filefront....ile/Kumiko_Manor;63868

Thats not a mod, thats a simple add-on. Something that can be done with the NWN1/2 toolsets in under 10 minutes. How you can pull 100 hours of gameplay out of a house mod, I don't understand. You alt tab out to check AT and AIM a lot?

Look at the Tragedy of Traigdor for NWN2, thats a solid module. Rogue Dao Studio's Purgatorio is in their internal beta right now, with a release date of 'soon'. Supposedly, its going to be a 700MB download for the full version. Tragedy is currently one of the largest NWN2 mods at 108MB and boasts more gameplay and content than most full retail games.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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Kumiko Manor is not a "simple add-on" .. when i played it last year there were three complete inter-related Quests for high-level players - including one for vampires only ... deep puzzles and really pretty clever
--and many hidden sub quests

as i said you are the expert on NWN ... not oblivion
[i am]

http://elderscrolls.filefront....of_the_Lich_King;65590

check out all 4 of his mods ... tens of hours of very good game play, monsters, bosses and completely new content
Description:
This is the 3rd mod in my "series" and should be used together with my other two, Lair of the Hydra and Blackrock Mountain to get the most out of it.

-High up in the mountains in Northwestern Cyrodil stands the Tower of the Lich King. Only the most experienced and powerfull adventurers can even stand a chance to his might.

This mod adds a extremely hard dungeon which should only be atempted by the best geard adventurers. The monsters in here are very tough and the bosses by far the most powerfull beeings in Tamriel.

Except from the tower and the bosses I've also added a full set of armor for each archtype of character, Warrior, Assassin/Rogue, Mage and Hunter (Marksman, kiting that kind of character) I've also added new unique weapons and jewlery to be found on slain monsters in the tower.
This mod is the 3rd in line with my other two and adds a tier 3 set of armor and tier 3 quality equipment (compared to the other two)

Like mentioned above the Lich King and his minions are extremely powerfull and you will probably need allot of potions, scrolls and the best equipment available to be able to kill the Lich King.

-SPOILERS-

p.s The tower is just NW of Sancre'tor.

http://elderscrolls.filefront....of_the_Lich_King;65590

http://elderscrolls.filefront....ient_Goblin_City;65588

http://elderscrolls.filefront....ck_Rock_Mountain;65586

Explain. I haven't played SI, but from the screen shots I've seen, the dialogue is the same way. I click on a single word and the NPC responds as if I asked a complete question. Try going up to someone at the supermarket and saying the word 'Gossip' and waiting for a response.

As you pointed out though, the style of gameplay that I enjoy is dying out. Its also a victim of the dumbing down and consolization of gaming today.
the dialog is the same way in NWN2 .. you get "choices"

BUT i was addressing the monotony of the "same" voice actors ... in SI, there is MUCH more variety and Sheogorath is a BLAST ... so is his butler ... PLUS the world *reacts* properly to you changing status ... from 'chosen' to god. i think they added a bit more 'choices' in the dialog and your having to choose Dementia or Mania ... but that was a naatural expansion for Oblivion to address some of the criticism leveled at it.

what you call "dumbing down" is quite enjoyable to most gamers. ANYWAY, i think the indies and mod makers will always support your style of game play - if you can forget about graphics and eyecandy.
 

kobymu

Senior member
Mar 21, 2005
576
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@apoppin what gives? Seriously, why do you insist oblivion is a good Role Playing Game, that is just weird, I don?t think anyone here said it?s a bad action/adventure game, but it not a good RPG, Seriously! What gives?

Can you explain that? Can you share with me that mysterious hidden Role Playing Gameing experience within oblivion that nobody else seems to find?

How do you perceive RPG? Is playing Doom & Quake a RPG where you roleplay a Space Marine?

What does RPG means to you?
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: kobymu
@apoppin what gives? Seriously, why do you insist oblivion is a good Role Playing Game, that is just weird, I don?t think anyone here said it?s a bad action/adventure game, but it not a good RPG, Seriously! What gives?

Can you explain that? Can you share with me that mysterious hidden Role Playing Gameing experience within oblivion that nobody else seems to find?

How do you perceive RPG? Is playing Doom & Quake a RPG where you roleplay a Space Marine?

What does RPG means to you?

RPG means "role playing game"

and no, i cannot explain it to RPG "purists" who insist that top down 2D D&D is the only form of game "allowed" to have the lofty designation "R-P-G"

well, excuse me mr purist, but there is more to RPG then D&D games

Fable LC fits as an RPG, so does the Gothic Series - which are very close to Oblivion except in a few key points [as in 'leveling up']

DeusEx is also a RPG ... but since it retains the FPS elements so strongly, it is called RPG hybred ... and DE is no less RPG then Vampire:tMB.

SS2 was also RPG/FPS hybred ... but seemed more FPS

DM M&M is also billed as "RPG" even though Oblivion has 100 times MORE "RPG elements" then DM&M does.

STALKER is RPG at "heart" .. you DO level up and gain "experience" in whatever you SPECIALIZE in - and when you "shoot" at a NPC, the program calculates your "chances" of hitting and how much damage your shot will do ... but the game does not make you aware of it with a "level up NOW!" screen and it plays like a pure FPS

Doom, Quake, Prey, HL2, Unreal are NOT "rpgs" ... they are FPS

anything else i can clear up for you?
 

kobymu

Senior member
Mar 21, 2005
576
0
0
Originally posted by: kobymu
Can you explain that? Can you share with me that mysterious hidden Role Playing Gameing experience within oblivion that nobody else seems to find?

...

What does RPG means to you?

 
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