What is RAID setup using SSD? And What Brand?????

[swchoi89]

Hi guys,

1) What is the benefit of this "RAID" set up, over just plugging in two SSDs? Do they have to be the exact same model like how GTXs have to be the same model to be in the SLI setup?

2) What brand is the most reliable? Right now I use the Samsung 840, but it's running out of space. I need to buy a new one.

Thanks!

 

[Red Squirrel]

For raid it's ideal to have the same model and when doing hardware raid you often have to. With 2 SSDs I'd probably do raid 0, with good backups. With more than 2, maybe raid 5 or 10 (10 requires pairs, it's 1+0). SSDs don't randomly fail (as much) as regular HDDs so you can get away with less redundancy, but keep in mind when they do fail, they'll probably fail around the same time due to wearing out which will be more or less even. Because of that, you may actually be able to just get away with raid 0 all the way. Personally I'm a bigger fan of HDDs for mass/raid storage though, but everyone has different needs. I do admit I'd like to witness for myself what kind of performance a raid 0 with SSDs would bring to the table.

 

[swchoi89]

For raid it's ideal to have the same model and when doing hardware raid you often have to. With 2 SSDs I'd probably do raid 0, with good backups. With more than 2, maybe raid 5 or 10 (10 requires pairs, it's 1+0). SSDs don't randomly fail (as much) as regular HDDs so you can get away with less redundancy, but keep in mind when they do fail, they'll probably fail around the same time due to wearing out which will be more or less even. Because of that, you may actually be able to just get away with raid 0 all the way. Personally I'm a bigger fan of HDDs for mass/raid storage though, but everyone has different needs. I do admit I'd like to witness for myself what kind of performance a raid 0 with SSDs would bring to the table.

Ok, so do I just connect them to the SATA port, and the motherboard will automatically recognize the "RAID" set-up that I am intending to? setup?

 

[bigi]

Hi guys,

1) What is the benefit of this "RAID" set up, over just plugging in two SSDs? Do they have to be the exact same model like how GTXs have to be the same model to be in the SLI setup?

2) What brand is the most reliable? Right now I use the Samsung 840, but it's running out of space. I need to buy a new one.

Thanks!

Really? what is the benefit?

Do you need uptime? with 2 SSDs?

Don't know where to begin...

 

[swchoi89]

Really? what is the benefit?

Do you need uptime? with 2 SSDs?

Don't know where to begin...

Look.. I'm a complete noob and have no idea what RAID is at all. I tried researching it but I was hoping someone might be able to explain it to me in a noob-friendly words.... hence the reason why I'm here.

Anyways, I saw a bunch of demos of multiple SSDs set-up in RAID and the speed was blazingly fast. I was wondering (Since I have to buy more SSDs anyways for space), if RAID is something that is easy to set up?

 

[bigi]

Look.. I'm a complete noob and have no idea what RAID is at all. I tried researching it but I was hoping someone might be able to explain it to me in a noob-friendly words.... hence the reason why I'm here.

Anyways, I saw a bunch of demos of multiple SSDs set-up in RAID and the speed was blazingly fast. I was wondering (Since I have to buy more SSDs anyways for space), if RAID is something that is easy to set up?

I am looking, but can't see your purpose of needing RAID

So, ...

1. Why do you want to go RAID?
2. What's your budget?
3. How much storage space do you need to get?
4. What level of redundancy do you need?
5. What are your current system specs?

 

[swchoi89]

I am looking, but can't see your purpose of needing RAID

So, ...

1. Why do you want to go RAID?
2. What's your budget?
3. How much storage space do you need to get?
4. What level of redundancy do you need?
5. What are your current system specs?

Thanks. Here are my responses:

1. I am only exploring options as I heard that it makes things faster???
2, 3. Looking for a 120~240GB SSD, around $100~$200.
4. What do you mean by redundancy?
5. Specs in my signature below.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

To get a speed boost from RAID, you have to implement something called striping. This requires at least two disks. The total space is equal to the smallest disks capacity times the number of disks you have. How striping works is: an appropriately sized chunk of every file is stored on each disk. So your computer is able to read and write files in parallel. However, if one of the drives fails, all your data is toast.

Example. 5x 120GB SSDs in a single stripe would give you 600GB of storage. If one drive failed, all your data would go away forever. The likelihood of data loss is now 5x as likely, since there are 5 drives.

Example 2. 4x 180GB SSDs and a 90GB SSD are in a striped array. Your total capacity is 450GB.

That's "RAID-0."

Using a RAID for redundancy involves using one or more disks to check up on the other ones. (So that if one disk fails, you don't necessarily lose all your data.) Data is then striped over the remaining disks. However, you lose the capacity of the last disk in the chain. (So, 2 drives would have the capacity of 1, 5 drives would have the capacity of 4, etc.)

Example: Using 5x 120GB SSDs in a striped RAID with parity* would give you 480GB of storage, and if one of the drives failed, the array would continue operating in a degraded state (no redundancy). You would theoretically be able to rebuild by replacing the failed drive - this would normally result in no downtime, data loss, or interruption of service. However, RAID rebuilds have a non-zero failure rate. And then you're really screwed. So, as the saying goes, "RAID IS NOT A BACKUP."

*parity = math. A RAID-5 will tend to be slower than a straight RAID-0, because of the compute overhead, but the redundancy makes it worth it, usually.

Using two drives in mirrored mode is called "RAID-1." Using 3 or more drives with a stripe + redundant parity drive is called "RAID-5." You can add a second parity drive and it's called "RAID-6." RAID-10 is when you take a pair of stripes (0) and mirror them. (1). RAID 15 is when you take a pair of RAID-5 stripe/parity arrays and mirror them.

The thing is, if you've filled a 250GB SSD, you might be better off adding a spinner drive for data and migrating slow-tolerant stuff (audio and video libraries) to that, instead of adding another 120-240GB SSD.

It depends on what's taking up your space, too. If you have a 250GB SSD and a 150GB Steam Library, it would be a simple matter to plug in a second SSD, migrate your Steam folder to it, and call it a weekend.

Your everyday activities on a computer will not see a particularly noticeable boost from a striped RAID with SSDs. It's just a solution for benchmark whores. (NTTAWWT.)

If you're doing a software RAID (Windows Disk Management or Intel ICH RAID) you don't need to have drives that are the same manufacturer and model, but it helps keep performance consistent if you do. Hardware RAID should definitely have drives as similar to each other as possible.

 

[swchoi89]

To get a speed boost from RAID, you have to implement something called striping. This requires at least two disks. The total space is equal to the smallest disks capacity times the number of disks you have. How striping works is: an appropriately sized chunk of every file is stored on each disk. So your computer is able to read and write files in parallel. However, if one of the drives fails, all your data is toast.

Example. 5x 120GB SSDs in a single stripe would give you 600GB of storage. If one drive failed, all your data would go away forever. The likelihood of data loss is now 5x as likely, since there are 5 drives.

Example 2. 4x 180GB SSDs and a 90GB SSD are in a striped array. Your total capacity is 450GB.

That's "RAID-0."

Using a RAID for redundancy involves using one or more disks to check up on the other ones. (So that if one disk fails, you don't necessarily lose all your data.) Data is then striped over the remaining disks. However, you lose the capacity of the last disk in the chain. (So, 2 drives would have the capacity of 1, 5 drives would have the capacity of 4, etc.)

Example: Using 5x 120GB SSDs in a striped RAID with parity* would give you 480GB of storage, and if one of the drives failed, the array would continue operating in a degraded state (no redundancy). You would theoretically be able to rebuild by replacing the failed drive - this would normally result in no downtime, data loss, or interruption of service. However, RAID rebuilds have a non-zero failure rate. And then you're really screwed. So, as the saying goes, "RAID IS NOT A BACKUP."

*parity = math. A RAID-5 will tend to be slower than a straight RAID-0, because of the compute overhead, but the redundancy makes it worth it, usually.

Using two drives in mirrored mode is called "RAID-1." Using 3 or more drives with a stripe + redundant parity drive is called "RAID-5." You can add a second parity drive and it's called "RAID-6." RAID-10 is when you take a pair of stripes (0) and mirror them. (1). RAID 15 is when you take a pair of RAID-5 stripe/parity arrays and mirror them.

The thing is, if you've filled a 250GB SSD, you might be better off adding a spinner drive for data and migrating slow-tolerant stuff (audio and video libraries) to that, instead of adding another 120-240GB SSD.

It depends on what's taking up your space, too. If you have a 250GB SSD and a 150GB Steam Library, it would be a simple matter to plug in a second SSD, migrate your Steam folder to it, and call it a weekend.

Your everyday activities on a computer will not see a particularly noticeable boost from a striped RAID with SSDs. It's just a solution for benchmark whores. (NTTAWWT.)

If you're doing a software RAID (Windows Disk Management or Intel ICH RAID) you don't need to have drives that are the same manufacturer and model, but it helps keep performance consistent if you do. Hardware RAID should definitely have drives as similar to each other as possible.

OK, this sounds a lot better to me, makes so much more sense, thank you!

The thing is, I only have about 20 GB free, and the rest of the 220GB are purely from games (I have like 8 games installed).

As for RAID, I thought if I used this technology, I would be benefiting in FPS boost or some sort..? Maybe I'm wrong.

I did not know there is such a capability to setup RAID using softwares. I should do that as I am not that techie when it comes to hardwares. But if I do decide to buy a SSD, I can just go ahead and plug it into any of the random SATA ports right?

Thanks again.

 

[Old Hippie]

I would be benefiting in FPS boost or some sort..? Maybe I'm wrong.

Yes you're wrong.

FSP has nothing to do with RAID and everything to do with your video card.

I'm not going to spoon feed you on the various RAID configurations nor explain how to set it up on your MB.

But I will tell you this....unless you have your data/games on a cloned, separate, back-up disc, configuring a RAID array will eliminate all the data on your discs.

 

[Essence_of_War]

OP, what specifically are you looking for?

RAIDs are generally used to solve the following set of problems:
1) I need lots of storage
2) I need that storage to be redundant in case of disk failure.
3) I need improved read/write speeds over a single disk.
As dave_the_nerd described, RAID 0 solves only 1,3. RAID 1 solves 2. RAID 10/0+1/5/6 solve all of 1,2,3 with different emphasis on different numbers. It doesn't sound to me like you have this set of problems.

What it sounds to me like you need is not MOAR SSD, but a high-capacity HDD for your games. Get a 2/3/4 TB Seagate/Toshiba/WD/whatever is cheapest. It's way cheaper than an SSD, and it will fit all of your games. Put all your games on that. Stop worrying about running out of storage space.

If you really want to put your entire game library on SSD despite the fact that:
1) SSDs don't improve your in-game FPS
2) They typically only cut down on game launch and level-load times
3) They're really expensive per GB compared to HDDs. And modern games are fairly big.
Then just get whatever the largest capacity Crucial m500, Samsung EVO, or Toshiba Q drive you can afford. Put all your games on that. Leave your 840 for just your OS/other applications. Messing around w/ RAID'd SSDs for game storage is silly if you can fit them on one high capacity drive.

 

[serpretetsky]

I'll make this short and sweet:
If you don't know why you would need it, you probably don't.

Raid0 is the main performance raid. For most things you won't notice a difference.
see the following
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-raid-benchmark,3485-10.html

 

[swchoi89]

OK, I guess I had some mis-understanding here. I'll just go buy whatever, thanks for your help guys.

 

[Essence_of_War]

I'll just go buy whatever

Uhh...OK. Good luck, I guess.

 

[nk215]

To the OP.
Don’t bother with RAID SSD. In your situation, you won’t gain much of anything but a lot of work on your hand.

Here’s my recommendation to you:
+ Ignore the RAID setup.
+ Get another SSD
+ Use that SSD as a second HD on your computer
+ Use Junction to “move” data from your C: to this new drive.

In my setup, most of the applications in “Program Files” are moved to my other SSD including offices and stuffs. That way I can image the entire C drive before anything major change quickly.

There are a lot of tools to help you setting up with Junctions. Basically, it’s like a “shortcut” but work at a much lower level. For example, if you move Office from C:\Program Files to D:\link\Office. Windows still think Office is still at C:\Program Files but the actual files/folders are in D:\link\Office. No need to reinstall anything. Just move folders and use Junction to “link” it back to the original location.

The OS drive should only has the bare minimum of stuffs in it so that you can do image backup quickly.

 

[delonm]

There are a lot of tools to help you setting up with Junctions. Basically, it’s like a “shortcut” but work at a much lower level. For example, if you move Office from CProgram Files to \link\Office. Windows still think Office is still at CProgram Files but the actual files/folders are in \link\Office. No need to reinstall anything. Just move folders and use Junction to “link” it back to the original location.

nk215:

I apologize for the OT question here, but I was wondering if you could provide some additional information on the tools you referenced above. I did some quick research on the sysinternals junction tool and it appears as if it may solve some of my headaches trying to manage SSD space.

Also, when you junction a folder such as Program Files or the User directory, do you have to worry about file locks when backing up the junction target directories?

You may want to consider creating a "how to" post for the forum.

Thanks,

David

 

[Lonyo]

There is another option other than junctions, which is to use "mount as folder" and then just set up your second drive as a folder on C:. Then you don't need to bother with junctions.

IIRC, the file structure on the mount as folder drive is the same as a regular setup, and you can plug it into any PC and have it recognised as a regular NTFS drive as well so there are no longer term/reformatting problems caused, but I could be wrong.

 

[nk215]

nk215:

I apologize for the OT question here, but I was wondering if you could provide some additional information on the tools you referenced above. I did some quick research on the sysinternals junction tool and it appears as if it may solve some of my headaches trying to manage SSD space.

Also, when you junction a folder such as Program Files or the User directory, do you have to worry about file locks when backing up the junction target directories?

You may want to consider creating a "how to" post for the forum.

Thanks,

David

Hi David,

Like I said previously, there are a few tools doing the same thing. One of the more update one is "Link Shell Extension" (you can search for it using that name).

For example if you want to move GameABC from "C:\Program Files\GameABC" to "D:\Link\GameABC". Just copy the GameABC folder over to D:\Link\. Delete the original Folder in C:\Program Files\. Then right-click-drag the D:\Link\GameABC folder back to C:\Program Files and pick "Drop As Junction". You'll have the "linked" folder in C:\Program Files\GameABC. As far as windows is concern, the game is still in C:\Program Files.

No need to re-install the game. You can always move the game back or further move it somewhere else.

It's important to note that you must be able to delete the original file locations. Which mean you can't do this to files that windows locks during a normal windows operation. I've not tried to move the entire Program Files but I have no issue moving Office/Photoshop/Games out of the C: drive to save spaces.

My documents/Pictures/Download folder can be moved to another drive using "property - location" so I didn't use junction for those. With those directories on another drive, my user directory is not that large.

Give it a try. You may like it.

 

[delonm]

Thanks for the follow up Nk215! Great info. The shell extension sounds like it takes all the pain out of setting up junctions. I will definitely be giving it a try.