What is self defense ?

[jockdisvdude]

I am a 17 year old and hate violence. But what happens when a gang tries to jump me ? WHat do i do ? When is self defense taken to far ? Can I get in trouble for using self defense, and what is self defense ? Is stabbing justified ? I just dont want to get in trouble when I get jumped. because some people don't give you a choice, and you can't walk away.

 

[Scouzer]

You live in the USA. I cannot possibly comprehend how you do not know this.

 

[mithrandir2001]

The best self defense is avoiding the trouble. I don't live in Cali, so I'm not familiar with the gang situation there, but I don't encounter any of that here in PA.

 

[Orsorum]

I know what he's confused about... most American public schools have an absolute "No-Tolerance" policy towards fighting... if you're in a fight, even if you started it, if you're fighting back, you both pretty much receive the same penalty. It's meant to discourage fighting altogether... I think it's just stupid. It allows the belligerent to often start fights, knowing that they can get in a lot of good shots before they're pulled off... I've seen this happen.

At what point can a person legally be allowed to fight back?

 

[Colt45]

<< What do i do ? >>



BANG-BANG!!


Yeah, violence sucks..
if you stab someone that jumps you, i cant see you getting in trouble though, just probably questioned alot, maybe go to court if you press charges on the ppl that jumped you (as a witness) etc..

 

[JonnyDuke]

The American Heritage Dictionary, third edition defines it as:

Self-defense: 1. Defense of oneself, one's property, or one's reputation.
2. Law. The right to protect oneself against violence or threatened violence with whatever means reasonably necessary.

What this means: Essentially if you are attacked by a gang and they are attempting to harm you, you may use lethal force to protect yourself. This is because of something called "disparity of force" which boils down to mean that there is a disparity, a huge difference in the amount of force a group wields, than an individual wields. If a group attacks you intending to do harm they are more than capable of killing you, intentionally or not. The law allows for you to defend your life with whatever force will stop the attack. Even if it means killing someone.

Now there are a few other factors that are involved sometimes, but those are the basics.

 

[luvya]

u slap me, I slap u back
that's what self defense is

 

[BruinEd03]

<< I am a 17 year old and hate violence. But what happens when a gang tries to jump me ? WHat do i do ? When is self defense taken to far ? Can I get in trouble for using self defense, and what is self defense ? Is stabbing justified ? I just dont want to get in trouble when I get jumped. because some people don't give you a choice, and you can't walk away. >>



Ever seen karate kid? ur like that kid...bust out the can of wax cuz u better be doing "wax on!" "wax off!"

-Ed

 

[Anghang]

i hear ya...i'm pretty much a non-violent person and try to avoid it at all costs, unless someone really and i mean REALLY crosses me in a bad way (messes with my personal life, family, etc)...but sometimes trouble just comes looking for you, just for troubles sake...wrong place, wrong time, that kind of situation...when it happens don't ever feel you have to hold back, don't be afraid to defend yourself..this is your life we're talking about...in the end if your still standing and in good health then you've won...

 

[PrinceofWands]

Ok, I'm not a Republik of Kalifornia resident, or lawyer. But I can show you some examples from Washington state law:


RCW 9A.16.110
Defending against violent crime -- Reimbursement.

(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.

(2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.



RCW 9A.16.050 "Homicide - By Other Person - When Justifiable"

"Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is."



So basically this covers us for defending ourselves against attack. After these basics we get into 'disparity of force' laws (which are really REALLY bad ideas) and other little loopholes. The general point is; defend yourself now and sort the rest out later.

 

[tcsenter]

<< Can I get in trouble for using self defense, and what is self defense ? Is stabbing justified ? I just dont want to get in trouble when I get jumped. because some people don't give you a choice, and you can't walk away. >>

You must use EXTREME caution here. The goal is to defend yourself AND stay out of prison, wouldn't you agree?

Do NOT just take a few unqualified opinions and feel you're informed enough to make a judgement. I'm not an attorney, my opinion is not legal advice, so take it for what its worth.

In some states, the law is very favorable to the defender. In other states, no matter how clear-cut the case of self-defense, you're going to be arrested and charged with a crime.

In those states, IF you get a reasonable prosecutor, the charges will usually be dropped. On the other hand, if you get a criminal-coddling prosecutor who is one of those 'zero tolerance' for violence types that believe the only weapon you should have the ability to own is a rape whistle or cellular phone (and there are many of them), you're going to have to convince a jury that you were defending yourself. In this case, if you don't have the money for a good attorney who is experienced in self-defense cases, you stand a fair chance of being convicted.

No, it isn't right, but it is the REALITY. Examples of people being prosecuted or serving prison time for what they honestly believed to be self-defense are legion. This is NOT a clear-cut issue that can be adequately dealt with on an informal discussion forum, the legal complexities and pitfalls of self-defense have produced a legal specialty area.

The best information on this subject can be found in a book entitled "In The Gravest Extreme: Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection" written by Massad Ayoob; a recognized authority on self-defense. Even though this book was written with a focus on firearm self-defense, it comprehensively deals with the legal and ethical aspects of self-defense no matter the instrument.

Since you specifically mention a knife, this book is even more applicable since the knife was 'stigmatized' as the preferred weapon of rapists, muggers, gang-members, and psychos decades before the firearm was. Even in states where guns are treated like family members, carrying knives other than a small pocket knife is usually banned for this reason.

You can find the book at Amazon or the Police Bookshelf:

Amazon.com - In The Gravest Extreme

Police Bookshelf - In the Gravest Extreme

 

[dullard]

How about a real life example:

My cousin in Minnesota was attacked by a gang. He pulled out a knife and stabbed one of the gang members - they fled. My cousin was arrested and convicted. He spent two years in jail.

Why didn't his self-defense arguement work? Because the law states that self defense involves weapons of equal or lesser power than your attacker. If an attacker comes at you with only fists, you can fight with only fists. If you bring out a more powerful weapon AND use it, then you are now considered the attacker. If you are attacked by someone with a knife, then in self defense you can use fists or a knife - but not a gun. If someone comes at you with a gun - then you can use fists, knives, or guns as self defense. In all these cases your allowed weapons are lesser or equal in destructive potential.

Things change a bit when you are invaded in your home. Then the law allows you to use a more powerful weapon since you have no where to flee.

 

[JupiterJones]

In Alabama it is understood that the best deterrent to violent crime is a populace who will resist aggression. It is legal to use lethal force in protection of yourself, your property, or others. In Alabama anyone who has not been convicted of a felony or has been declared insane can acquire a concealed carry permit at the age of 18. The permit is issued by the local Sheriff and cost $20 a year.

 

[JupiterJones]

Because the law states that self defense involves weapons of equal or lesser power than your attacker.

Dullard,
This law is grossly unfair. While it may be that there are people who can defend themselves against ANY opponent using equal weapons, this is not true of a whole bunch of us. There was a time when I would have had great personal confidence, but age and injury have taken that away from me. It has been said that while God made all men, Sam Colt made them equal. My Grandmother, from her wheelchair, can defend herself with a firearm.

Minnesota is no place for a free man.

Don

 

[badluck]

I know it may sound stupid but call the cops and ask them what rights you have since you fear your safety. Tape record the conversation (tell the cops you are recording the conversation if it is required by law in your state) and follow their directions. You probably won't do this, but I would. You have every right to contact the cops to find out this information. As does someone who is being stalked or threatened.....

 

[gotsmack]

self defense

IS: Kicking an intruder of your home in the nuts.


IS NOT: Going up to a guy who just happens to be walking on your side of the sidewalk and kicking him in the nuts.

 

[Superwormy]

If someone attacks you, they you are allowed to fight back. However, it stops being 'self defense' when:


You bring out a more dangerous weapon (ie, they have fists, you have knife, or they have knife, you pull a gun)

OR

You gain the upper hand, and CONTINUE to beat them. So for instance, someone jumps you starts hitting you with their fists. Somehow you push each other away, so you are standin like say 5 feet apart. NOW, if he approaches you, you can still defend yourself, but if YOU APPROACH HIM, they you are considered the attacker from then on in.

Another common example is like someone attacks you and you throw him on the ground. If you do anything beyond the point where he hits the ground, YOU are the attacker. So if you stomp his face after you toss him to the ground, its jail time for you!!!


THE EXCEPTIONS!!!:

If you are in your own home, and someone breaks in, in the MAJORITY of states, you have any right to use LETHAL FORCE against that person, cause he is on your property.



This site is an EXCELLENT resource for topics like this!!! Check it out!

 

[Daniel]

It is one of those very tricky legal areas generally. I watched a court battle in person with the family of the cousin of a girl I used to go out with. The cousin was stabbed to death by another classmate, but since the court believed it was in self defense cause there were 2 guys pushing him and the kid got off, it was insane.

I do a lot of martial arts training and I always try to stress to people that even in a situation where you can't get away, you do what you have to do, but always within reason. If a guy attacks you with a knife and you break his arm then fine. If he attacks you with the knife, you break his arm, take his knife and jam him with it then you are going to be standing trial for something. They tend to use the term "reasonable force" a lot, meaning you can use what they decide is reasonable, which many times at the time of an encounter might seem quite different in your eyes, to defuse the situation, once you go beyond that level of reasonable force then you have passed the level of self defense.

In the situation where the guy got put in jail for stabbing the gang member there was probably more involved. Had he gotten attacked and used the knife cause he feared his life then maybe things would have been different, but if he was just verbally threatened or pushed and he used one then the courts probably jumped all over him.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Moral of the story: Learn to kill a man with your bare hands.

 

[jockdisvdude]

what do you consider this scenario. A group of guys approach and push and shove. I try to walk away and they follow me and continue to threaten me and hit me onto the ground and continue hitting me while I'm on the ground. What if I pulled out a knife, and stabbed one of them ? Or three of them ?

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

In Oregon, the state doesn't consider violence "self-defense" if there is any possible way out of the situation other than violence.

If you get jumped, defend yourself no matter what, though. Screw the law, the law doesn't compensate you for broken limbs or brain damage afterwards if you get jumped!

Nik

 

[badluck]

dood, you are an idiot. why didn't you take my advice? you are going to take the advice of people who might not have any clue. when you get bad advice and end up in jail, make sure you grab a terminal and tell us how you like bubba.....

 

[tcsenter]

<< what do you consider this scenario. A group of guys approach and push and shove. I try to walk away and they follow me and continue to threaten me and hit me onto the ground and continue hitting me while I'm on the ground. What if I pulled out a knife, and stabbed one of them ? Or three of them? >>

How are you going to stab any of them while you're on the ground getting hit? Maybe you can take a stab or swipe at their ankles, but as soon as one of them spots the knife, they're not going to stand there, let you get up, walk over and stab them.

A prosecutor is going to ask, why didn't you run away instead of waltzing away? You must not have felt you were in that much danger if you chose to walk instead of run.

<< Screw the law, the law doesn't compensate you for broken limbs or brain damage afterwards if you get jumped! >>

Neither will it compensate you for the ruining of your sphincter and contracting hepatitis while in prison.

 

[QueHuong]

<< Because the law states that self defense involves weapons of equal or lesser power than your attacker. >>


I've heard that once you're a black belt in a martial art, you're legally considered a weapon. So if someone comes up to attack you with their fists, and you fight back with your fists, is it still self defense (fist vs fist) or is it considered a case of weapon (the martial artist) vs bare hands (attacker)?