What is so good about manufacturing?

[Engineer]

I know the answer to this one!

They are moving to food stamps. All the money saved buying low cost labor products are paying for the food stamps.


.

LOL, did you notice one of the graphs that I placed in my post above?

Yes, I agree with you. Either we can somehow get decent paying jobs that everyone can do (like before) or we can move more toward socialism. Pretty simple really and it's already happening. Seems that many are cheerleading it happening at the same time condemning it. The only thing that hasn't happened yet is raising the taxes more on the haves to give to the have nots (we've actually been going backwards on that one - lowering taxes while taking on more burden - i.e. we're running one hell of a deficit). One of those WTF moments in life, I suppose.

Whether manufacturing comes back to America or not remains to be seen. However, some really big players are starting to take notice (or at least making it a PR stunt).

http://investorplace.com/2013/08/walmart-attempts-to-bring-manufacturing-jobs-back-to-america/

I wonder if WalMart finally noticed that once the credit cards were cut off from people who didn't have as good of paying jobs as they used to, they don't spend as much. Hmmmm...... :hmm:

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Where the former manufacturing workers will move to I can't say.

But I can cite what Steve Jobs told President Obama when he asked what it would take to bring iPhone manufacturing jobs back to the US.
http://www.catholic.org/technology/story.php?id=44500

We actually CAN bring the jobs back to the United States by passing laws requiring that consumer goods and services be manufactured in the United States. "If you want to sell IPhones in the U.S., then you must produce them here." One form is called a tariff. Another variant might be an import credits type of system that requires a zero dollar trade deficit if not encourages having a trade surplus.

 

[blankslate]

We actually CAN bring the jobs back to the United States by passing laws requiring that consumer goods and services be manufactured in the United States. "If you want to sell IPhones in the U.S., then you must produce them here." One form is called a tariff. Another variant might be an import credits type of system that requires a zero dollar trade deficit if not encourages having a trade surplus.

There was a house bill that was pushed up to the senate that included tax incentives to encourage companies to return jobs to the U.S.

Guessed who killed it in the Senate?


Another reason manufacturing is important in the U.S. particularly high tech manufacturing is National Security. How much more money are we spending to ensure that electronics imported for use by government agencies are free of malware.

http://thehackernews.com/2013/09/Undetectable-hardware-Trojans.html


malware built into hardware has been possible for quite a while and some people consider foreign made electronics a risk
http://defensetech.org/2012/03/29/richard-clarke-all-u-s-electronics-from-china-could-be-infected/



This show from CNBC, Code Wars

http://www.hulu.com/watch/257903

highlights one company, The Harris Corporation, hired by the government to look for malware built into Chinese electronics sent to the U.S. for government agency use.

The segment on the company starts at about 9 minutes in.

 

[88keys]

We actually CAN bring the jobs back to the United States by passing laws requiring that consumer goods and services be manufactured in the United States. "If you want to sell IPhones in the U.S., then you must produce them here." One form is called a tariff. Another variant might be an import credits type of system that requires a zero dollar trade deficit if not encourages having a trade surplus.

The problem with bringing back manufacturing now is that we've grown far too dependent on cheap imports. American labor is just too expensive to compete with overseas labor.

 

[Engineer]

The problem with bringing back manufacturing now is that we've grown far too dependent on cheap imports. American labor is just too expensive to compete with overseas labor.

and too dependent on food stamps too.

Wages are taking care of themselves....ours are falling and their are rising. Race to the bottom might just be more of a race to the middle.

 

[Kaido]

We actually CAN bring the jobs back to the United States by passing laws requiring that consumer goods and services be manufactured in the United States. "If you want to sell IPhones in the U.S., then you must produce them here." One form is called a tariff. Another variant might be an import credits type of system that requires a zero dollar trade deficit if not encourages having a trade surplus.

That's really the only thing I can think of that would have stopped manufacturing outsourcing in the first place - make it too expensive to have it made outside the US. Because what company in their right mind would manufacture a product in the US when it would be cheaper to do it outside the US? First, their competitors would go overseas and automatically lower the prices. Second, businesses exist to make money and that's the bottom line. Companies are in business to make money, despite whatever other lines they feed people. Unless incentivized, they will go the way that makes the most economic sense, which is outsourcing.

In addition, I've been working in the manufacturing industry for roughly 10 years now (albeit doing IT, not the shop work). Most people I know don't really like it that much, but it pays the bills. There are very few people I know who love working in manufacturing, actually. So what is so good about manufacturing in America? Other than the in-country economic development it brings from jobs & production, I don't think that it's a much-loved market job-wise. The only people who seem to really like it are the people who get to dabble in the higher-end stuff like CNC programming.

But I definitely think we've shot ourselves in the foot by not keeping it in our country. And they're making all of the technology growth instead of us - Foxconn (manufacturer of iDevices, among other things) has already committed to replacing 1 million human jobs with 1 million robots: (last I read I think 30k had already been deployed)

http://singularityhub.com/2012/11/1...an-jobs-at-foxconn-first-robots-have-arrived/

One company I'm proud of is Tesla. Sure, parts are sourced from all over the world, and they have to be, especially in our global economy, but I think it's very cool that the assembly is being done in the United States. Sure, other foreign companies are bringing jobs to the US, like Kia in Georgia, but the money still gets funneled offshore. Just for kicks, here's a video tour of Tesla's factory:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/07/tesla-plant-video/

Apple is starting to assemble iMacs in the US as well:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/05/apple-ceo-were-going-very-deep-with-us-manufacturing/

The bottom line is that it's all about incentives. No company out there is going to bring manufacturing back to the states unless they have some sort of economically beneficial reason to do so. And I think the only entity that can really control that is the US government.

 

[Engineer]

Apple is starting to assemble iMacs in the US as well:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/05/apple-ceo-were-going-very-deep-with-us-manufacturing/

Can't be. Was told that Steve Jobs said to Obama that it isn't coming back. Oh wait, Jobs died. Maybe it will come back after all.

 

[Kaido]

Can't be. Was told that Steve Jobs said to Obama that it isn't coming back. Oh wait, Jobs died. Maybe it will come back after all.

Nah, that was just the iPhones

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Engineer]

Nah, that was just the iPhones

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Well, we can hope, can't we?

(I'm sure that there are many, lots in this thread, that hope the opposite, for whatever reason.)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

The problem with bringing back manufacturing now is that we've grown far too dependent on cheap imports. American labor is just too expensive to compete with overseas labor.

The "cheap" imports are not as cheap as they appear. It's a mistake to focus on the visible front-end costs while ignoring the invisible back-end costs. The backend costs include increased unemployment, increased costs for welfare and criminal justice, societal decay, etc.

If the price of an import is X dollars then our nation is loses X dollars when we have to exchange IOU's or capital assets in order to purchase the import. In contrast, if the price of the same good, domestically produced, is 2X then that same 2X will cycle back into the American economy. Americans may have to spend more money upfront to purchase the good or service--but we would spend less money on welfare costs (etc.) and Americans would have higher incomes with which to pay that 2X.

 

[Engineer]

The "cheap" imports are not as cheap as they appear. It's a mistake to focus on the visible front-end costs while ignoring the invisible back-end costs. The backend costs include increased unemployment, increased costs for welfare and criminal justice, societal decay, etc.

If the price of an import is X dollars then our nation is loses X dollars when we have to exchange IOU's or capital assets in order to purchase the import. In contrast, if the price of the same good, domestically produced, is 2X then that same 2X will cycle back into the American economy. Americans may have to spend more money upfront to purchase the good or service--but we would spend less money on welfare costs (etc.) and Americans would have higher incomes with which to pay that 2X.

Or as Zebo puts it...cheap is more expensive.

 

[Linux23]

The US Government don't work for the US Citizen. They work for their Corporate buddies.

 

[glenn1]

Well, we can hope, can't we?

(I'm sure that there are many, lots in this thread, that hope the opposite, for whatever reason.)

I don't give a shit where something is made, I just want the best possible product or the one with the best cost/value ratio. If your buying decisions are based upon where assembly workers are physically located, then more power to you. But your mercantilist ideas of trying to force products to be made here (e.g. your iPhone example) it just means that I won't buy an iPhone.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

There was a house bill that was pushed up to the senate that included tax incentives to encourage companies to return jobs to the U.S.

Guessed who killed it in the Senate?

Republicans killed it...and for good reason.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...he-wrong-way-to-deal-with-outsourcing-647517/

 

[soulcougher73]

Because it provides necessary jobs for the masses. Really as simple as that in my opinion. We can't all be engineers and doctors. Just as we can't all be burger flippers.

 

[glenn1]

Because it provides necessary jobs for the masses. Really as simple as that in my opinion. We can't all be engineers and doctors. Just as we can't all be burger flippers.

Do you think the rest of the world is going to stand still while the U.S. attempts to horde manufacturing jobs? Do you somehow you expect the rest of the world's populace to be satisfied with subsistence farming or starvation and not utilize their own homegrown talent, creativity,and yes cheap labor to set up their own manufacturing that would directly compete with the newly merchantilistic U.S. economy?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I don't give a shit where something is made, I just want the best possible product or the one with the best cost/value ratio.

What if the result of Americans practicing that collectively is the impoverishment of America and its transformation into a third world country? Would you care about that?

I do agree with one part of your sentiment--you have to look out for yourself. It's not nor should it be an individual consumer's job to enact mercantilist economic policies--that's the government's and our politicians' job.

If your buying decisions are based upon where assembly workers are physically located, then more power to you. But your mercantilist ideas of trying to force products to be made here (e.g. your iPhone example) it just means that I won't buy an iPhone.

Think of it more in terms of, "trying to force economic independence and self-sufficiency".

Do you think the rest of the world is going to stand still while the U.S. attempts to horde manufacturing jobs? Do you somehow you expect the rest of the world's populace to be satisfied with subsistence farming or starvation and not utilize their own homegrown talent, creativity,and yes cheap labor to set up their own manufacturing that would directly compete with the newly merchantilistic U.S. economy?

The rest of the world is already engaged in trade protectionism and many even have severe constraints on immigration and foreign work visas (the other two primary components of global labor arbitrage). One of the premises of your comment is flawed--the notion that without the U.S. to lift them up via a U.S. trade deficit that they'll all be left to subsistence farming. Why can't they just develop and build their own middle class economies? Why can't they produce goods and services for their own internal consumption?

 

[glenn1]

What if the result of Americans practicing that collectively is the impoverishment of America and its transformation into a third world country? Would you care about that?

I do agree with one part of your sentiment--you have to look out for yourself. It's not nor should it be an individual consumer's job to enact mercantilist economic policies--that's the government's and our politicians' job.

The U.S. won't turn into a 3rd world country if it doesn't focus on manufacturing. See Comparative advantage for why this is the case.

Think of it more in terms of, "trying to force economic independence and self-sufficiency".

The Soviet Union tried this for decades and wound up obtaining neither. Instead they made some really crappy automobiles like the Trabant and nothing much else worthwhile with their manufacturing.

The rest of the world is already engaged in trade protectionism and many even have severe constraints on immigration and foreign work visas (the other two primary components of global labor arbitrage). One of the premises of your comment is flawed--the notion that without the U.S. to lift them up via a U.S. trade deficit that they'll all be left to subsistence farming. Why can't they just develop and build their own middle class economies? Why can't they produce goods and services for their own internal consumption?

Oh yes, and that trade protectionism and constraints on immigration work so well. Japan uses both heaviliy and their manufacturing and economy are the envy of the world. Whee, let's enjoy 2 or 3 lost decades just like them!

 

[blankslate]

Republicans killed it...and for good reason.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...he-wrong-way-to-deal-with-outsourcing-647517/

BS.

And additionally there was more than one bill moved up from the House to the Senate with tax incentives for bringing back jobs... Let me guess they were all flawed?

sorry but no; the far right wing of the Republicans are just set on saying no to everything that the current administration does.


Leaving that aside I don't think that even you can deny that having electronics for U.S. Government use made outside of the U.S. by competing countries presents a real security risk.

 

[OverVolt]

You know I look out for indicators.

The fact that someone has to even ask the title of the thread means something.

In a country where everyone is just pushing papers back and forth we've literally come to a point where people are so naive and go "what was the point of actually making things?" as we all complain there isn't enough stuff to go around.

The overall pie is shrinking, so the solution? Take from others. Brilliant.

 

[Engineer]

The U.S. won't turn into a 3rd world country if it doesn't focus on manufacturing. See Comparative advantage for why this is the case.



The Soviet Union tried this for decades and wound up obtaining neither. Instead they made some really crappy automobiles like the Trabant and nothing much else worthwhile with their manufacturing.



Oh yes, and that trade protectionism and constraints on immigration work so well. Japan uses both heaviliy and their manufacturing and economy are the envy of the world. Whee, let's enjoy 2 or 3 lost decades just like them!

Fine, but don't cry when the masses of people in the US who are falling in economic status because their wages are cut and falling vote themselves the treasury from people like yourself. Enjoy the upcoming socialist movement.

Your cheap iPhone will cost you more than just the sticker price....you can count on it.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

BS.

And additionally there was more than one bill moved up from the House to the Senate with tax incentives for bringing back jobs... Let me guess they were all flawed?

sorry but no; the far right wing of the Republicans are just set on saying no to everything that the current administration does.

Please list the bill(s) that you thought deserved Republican support. And while you compile this long list...be sure to note those drafted by Republicans, and those where Republicans were either included in writing the bill or were at least given a chance to add amendments to address any potential concerns. Oh, and while your listing things, please make sure you list all 18+ of the Republican House jobs bills that have been stalled in the Senate by Democratic leadership. Let me guess they were all flawed?

Leaving that aside I don't think that even you can deny that having electronics for U.S. Government use made outside of the U.S. by competing countries presents a real security risk.

Even me? Really? Anyway, I don't know enough about this subject to have an opinion.

 

[Linux23]

Do you think the rest of the world is going to stand still while the U.S. attempts to horde manufacturing jobs? Do you somehow you expect the rest of the world's populace to be satisfied with subsistence farming or starvation and not utilize their own homegrown talent, creativity,and yes cheap labor to set up their own manufacturing that would directly compete with the newly merchantilistic U.S. economy?

who gives a shit about the rest of the world. i care about what goes on in my backyard.

 

[werepossum]

That's really the only thing I can think of that would have stopped manufacturing outsourcing in the first place - make it too expensive to have it made outside the US. Because what company in their right mind would manufacture a product in the US when it would be cheaper to do it outside the US? First, their competitors would go overseas and automatically lower the prices. Second, businesses exist to make money and that's the bottom line. Companies are in business to make money, despite whatever other lines they feed people. Unless incentivized, they will go the way that makes the most economic sense, which is outsourcing.

In addition, I've been working in the manufacturing industry for roughly 10 years now (albeit doing IT, not the shop work). Most people I know don't really like it that much, but it pays the bills. There are very few people I know who love working in manufacturing, actually. So what is so good about manufacturing in America? Other than the in-country economic development it brings from jobs & production, I don't think that it's a much-loved market job-wise. The only people who seem to really like it are the people who get to dabble in the higher-end stuff like CNC programming.

But I definitely think we've shot ourselves in the foot by not keeping it in our country. And they're making all of the technology growth instead of us - Foxconn (manufacturer of iDevices, among other things) has already committed to replacing 1 million human jobs with 1 million robots: (last I read I think 30k had already been deployed)

http://singularityhub.com/2012/11/1...an-jobs-at-foxconn-first-robots-have-arrived/

One company I'm proud of is Tesla. Sure, parts are sourced from all over the world, and they have to be, especially in our global economy, but I think it's very cool that the assembly is being done in the United States. Sure, other foreign companies are bringing jobs to the US, like Kia in Georgia, but the money still gets funneled offshore. Just for kicks, here's a video tour of Tesla's factory:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/07/tesla-plant-video/

Apple is starting to assemble iMacs in the US as well:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/05/apple-ceo-were-going-very-deep-with-us-manufacturing/

The bottom line is that it's all about incentives. No company out there is going to bring manufacturing back to the states unless they have some sort of economically beneficial reason to do so. And I think the only entity that can really control that is the US government.

Well said, although personally I loved working in manufacturing. The years I spent in Dalton designing carpet handling equipment were the most interesting I've ever spent. (Unfortunately it was also the worst company for which I've ever worked.) I admit though that if I'd spent all day assembling or welding the same sub-assemblies I wouldn't have found it quite so stimulating, but there's still something very satisfying about creating something.

 

[piasabird]

We made companies like Toyota build cars in the USA. We could do the same for computers. In the event of a war overseas what happens if we cant import what we want from China, Japan, Korea, etc.? How long before we have no more computers?