What is so good about manufacturing?

[Engineer]

America (and the other Western nations) don't need manufacturing jobs

Couldn't disagree more....in both terms of pay/benefits, which the lower and lower middle (hell, some solid middle class) people are missing as well as the 'on the job skills' that are learned in manufacturing, especially higher tech manufacturing.

You cannot import your way to prosperity...at least in today's current model.

Maybe if we all become one world economy, with one currency, where the US is the 'service sector department' and the remaining countries have their own 'department', sure...but until then, keep the printing presses (and bubbles) going to keep the middle class from falling completely off the map and then hope that the rest of the world continues to accept your printed money (not likely if we keep going, especially if we default like some people seem to want us to do).

 

[shady28]

America (and the other Western nations) don't need manufacturing jobs; that's just our current shorthand for "America needs jobs a low-skill adult can do". That's not to denigrate people in manufacturing; there are obviously highly intelligent and highly skilled workers in that market. But the reason we say "America needs manufacturing" is because we're generally referring to jobs any human can be plugged in to do on fairly short notice. That minor point aside, let's talk about manufacturing.

I think for the most part, the economic savings we realize in North America by allowing foreign nations to build and sell us goods for cheaper than we ourselves could make them for are an obvious win. The commonly cited boogeymen of "forgetting" how to build things or what would occur if China one day decided to stop selling us things are ridiculous and unnecessary to disprove. However, I do wonder about the effect on the economy when spin-off companies from large manufacturers don't get their start in North America anymore.

A made up example: A tailor who works in the garment district of NYC who designs a new type of sewing machine to improve productivity or allows for a new design method; is that guy starting a Chinese company today instead of an American one? That worries me more than anything - we want new business to start here, not elsewhere.

Not sure how to respond to that as it's wrong on many different levels, so I'll just rattle off some facts with link :

1 - In 2011, jobs directly in manufacturing in the USA accounted for 9% of total employment.

2 - Manufacturing accounted for 12.2% of GDP in the same year (Note: 9% of the workforce accounted for 12.2% of GDP)

2 - Another 7% of all jobs are attributable to services directly supporting the manufacturing industry in the USA.

- This does not include things like doctors, teachers, gov't officials, etc; it would include things like controls engineers, contract programmers, etc who contract directly for manufacturing industries.

3 - Jobs involved directly in manufacturing averaged over $38/hr in 2010, vs $32/hr in other occupations.

4 - Manufactured goods accounted for 86% of all US exports in 2011.

Source :
http://www.manufacturing.gov/mfg_in_context.html


Manufacturing is not really as low skill as you appear to believe, not anymore. There are a lot of high skilled jobs in modern factories. In fact, there are a lot of them with openings. The thing is, not very many people have the right skill sets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/m...-bills.html?ref=magazine&_r=2&pagewanted=all&

"The National Association of Manufacturers estimates that there are roughly 600,000 jobs available for whoever has the right set of advanced skills."

 

[Zaap]

"The National Association of Manufacturers estimates that there are roughly 600,000 jobs available for whoever has the right set of advanced skills."

And yet every time its brought up that people need to learn and develop skills, it's met with all the usual gloom and doom horseshit about how expecting people learn bankable skills and be knowledgeable is unrealistic. Nope, it's just that boomers (or whoever it is that it's all the rage to blame for everything) are greedy and they enjoy picking up and moving to third world shitholes to do business, because that's always just so much fun.

 

[yottabit]

So what makes that inherently special or good? Is there a logical reason, or just romanticism? People often say that service jobs are shitty. What defines a shitty job, provided it adds social value and no social costs? So medicine, teaching, insurance sales, don't add value to society?

I think the romanticism around manufacturing jobs is really a lingering affection for the industrial revolution. The idea behind this romanticism is that products are being manufactured that are very helpful to society and increase the standard of living, allow GDP to go up, and our vastly superior to previous solutions.

This held true for quite some time, everything grew, everyone saw benefits and our standard of livings shot way up. I think at some point we plateaued and now our economy has taken up in large part luxury products that don't strong intrinsic value. So manufacturing of these products is really no safer/secure/better than any service job for instance.

Service jobs are considered less secure I suppose because services are typically the first place a consumer cuts back. A lot of times they can be performed by the consumer themselves or it's easier to abstain from them/reduce consumption. The romanticism around manufacturing would say we still need our products to maintain our standard of living, however these types of products would be food/housing/etc, which today are hurting segments. The growth in manufacturing is around mobile technology, electronics, etc, which most of us don't really need to survive.

Ironically the stage of the "industrial revolution" we are at now is still increasing manufacturing output but by replacing workers with robots and software, which is basically starting to work against the health of the economy overall and will likely compound concentration of wealth at the top. It's surprising to me that it was allowed to run amok in this way, and no one ever stopped to ask how much of an "increase" in productivity/standard of living is enough.

 

[yottabit]

It's interesting reading people's responses on here. Like people saying we don't want to make the iPhone in US, our future will be our children designing the iPhone not making it.

Do you really think there are going to be enough design jobs like that to employ everyone in America?

I'm troubled by the shift to high-tech companies becoming such a large part of our economy, because the wealth is so concentrated. And again robotics/automation compounds that problem in the manuf. sector.

While I agree manufacturing workers in the middle of the 20th century had it pretty great and it probably wasn't meant to last, if we continue on this trend there's going to be a huge problem of unemployed low skilled/middle class workers in the US. Not everyone can be an engineer or designer, and if everyone in the US was an engineer all our salaries would probably fall dramatically.

We will either need to become more of a socialist country with much heavier taxes on the wealthy, or there will have to be some kind of mass exodus of the low skill worker. I don't see any other way for the economy to support itself in the long term.

I do think the growth of outsourcing is pretty close to an end. I know China's labor force is pretty tapped out, and China is even outsourcing to neighboring countries like Bangladesh. Once the essentially free growth of employing all these low skilled people into manufacturing jobs is done, labor costs (even outsourced) will start to rise, perhaps to levels where the US will be somewhat competitive again. Either that, or it will make sense to automate it. In any case if manufacturing does shift back here it won't be the high paying, pensioned jobs of decades ago.

Really US manufacturing workers really shot themselves in the foot, not necessarily blaming the unions or anyone. But it probably doesn't make sense to automate manufacturing of a product if you have to pay the workers $3 in an hour in China. If you have to pay ~$22 an hour starting though with huge pension/retirement liabilities then it can be a no brainer to go to heavy automation.

 

[yottabit]

The only other possibility I can really see happening (and it seems more and more likely) is that the US economy shifts hugely toward producing luxury products and media, much moreso than today. This could become possible if China (and later India) become more developed and become a more consumerist society.

I can totally picture the US becoming the media center of the world, with a lot more actors and content producers. I suppose that would be the "lower-skilled" job of the future. And way more social media and niche products that make our lives "better". However the problem with this type of economy is that we would not be independent at all, our economy would be propped up on other countries and we wouldn't be able to survive on our own. It would also be a at a huge risk of a bubble/collapse in any world economic downturn.

 

[yllus]

Couldn't disagree more....in both terms of pay/benefits, which the lower and lower middle (hell, some solid middle class) people are missing as well as the 'on the job skills' that are learned in manufacturing, especially higher tech manufacturing.

You cannot import your way to prosperity...at least in today's current model.

Maybe if we all become one world economy, with one currency, where the US is the 'service sector department' and the remaining countries have their own 'department', sure...but until then, keep the printing presses (and bubbles) going to keep the middle class from falling completely off the map and then hope that the rest of the world continues to accept your printed money (not likely if we keep going, especially if we default like some people seem to want us to do).

As I said, America needs jobs a low-skill adult can do (generally the jobs the lower and lower middle class are placed within). Today, that means jobs in manufacturing; tomorrow, it could be something quite different. There is nothing inherently special about manufacturing that makes it necessary above all other industry.

Not sure how to respond to that as it's wrong on many different levels, so I'll just rattle off some facts with link :

1 - In 2011, jobs directly in manufacturing in the USA accounted for 9% of total employment.

2 - Manufacturing accounted for 12.2% of GDP in the same year (Note: 9% of the workforce accounted for 12.2% of GDP)

2 - Another 7% of all jobs are attributable to services directly supporting the manufacturing industry in the USA.

- This does not include things like doctors, teachers, gov't officials, etc; it would include things like controls engineers, contract programmers, etc who contract directly for manufacturing industries.

3 - Jobs involved directly in manufacturing averaged over $38/hr in 2010, vs $32/hr in other occupations.

4 - Manufactured goods accounted for 86% of all US exports in 2011.

Source :
http://www.manufacturing.gov/mfg_in_context.html


Manufacturing is not really as low skill as you appear to believe, not anymore. There are a lot of high skilled jobs in modern factories. In fact, there are a lot of them with openings. The thing is, not very many people have the right skill sets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/m...-bills.html?ref=magazine&_r=2&pagewanted=all&

"The National Association of Manufacturers estimates that there are roughly 600,000 jobs available for whoever has the right set of advanced skills."

If anything, this makes it even more obvious that manufacturing isn't the crucial industry that people are claiming it is. The industry appears to have declined from employing 55% of all Americans in 1965 to just 9% a few years ago. If Armageddon was to occur from the hollowing out of manufacturing, it already would have happened.

It also points out that manufacturing isn't the saviour of the lower-class or lower-middle class; $38/hr is around $79,000 annually, which is easily in the top 25% of American household income. So I'll echo the title of this thread again: What is so good about manufacturing?

 

[shady28]

As I said, America needs jobs a low-skill adult can do (generally the jobs the lower and lower middle class are placed within). Today, that means jobs in manufacturing; tomorrow, it could be something quite different. There is nothing inherently special about manufacturing that makes it necessary above all other industry.



If anything, this makes it even more obvious that manufacturing isn't the crucial industry that people are claiming it is. The industry appears to have declined from employing 55% of all Americans in 1965 to just 9% a few years ago. If Armageddon was to occur from the hollowing out of manufacturing, it already would have happened.

It also points out that manufacturing isn't the saviour of the lower-class or lower-middle class; $38/hr is around $79,000 annually, which is easily in the top 25% of American household income. So I'll echo the title of this thread again: What is so good about manufacturing?

75k is at the bottom of the top 28% so 79k is not 'easily' in the top 25%.

I'm any case, the farther away from the means of production you get, the less value add and hence the poorer you become.

Manufacturing no longer employs as many directly, but consider the implication of what you're saying.

No manufacturing = 86% of our exports go poof. 1.3 TRILLION per year.

So 9% of the workforce is responsible for 86% of our exports. That tells me that the other 91% aren't creating much of anything that anyone wants.

 

[OverVolt]

75k is at the bottom of the top 28% so 79k is not 'easily' in the top 25%.

I'm any case, the farther away from the means of production you get, the less value add and hence the poorer you become.

Manufacturing no longer employs as many directly, but consider the implication of what you're saying.

No manufacturing = 86% of our exports go poof. 1.3 TRILLION per year.

So 9% of the workforce is responsible for 86% of our exports. That tells me that the other 91% aren't creating much of anything that anyone wants.

Lol its true so all you can do is laugh. The other 14% is probably programming and entertainment or something like that.

Then the other 91% shuffle papers around back and forth trying to skim some money along the way but there is less and less to skim go figure.

 

[OverVolt]

As I said, America needs jobs a low-skill adult can do (generally the jobs the lower and lower middle class are placed within). Today, that means jobs in manufacturing; tomorrow, it could be something quite different. There is nothing inherently special about manufacturing that makes it necessary above all other industry.



If anything, this makes it even more obvious that manufacturing isn't the crucial industry that people are claiming it is. The industry appears to have declined from employing 55% of all Americans in 1965 to just 9% a few years ago. If Armageddon was to occur from the hollowing out of manufacturing, it already would have happened.

It also points out that manufacturing isn't the saviour of the lower-class or lower-middle class; $38/hr is around $79,000 annually, which is easily in the top 25% of American household income. So I'll echo the title of this thread again: What is so good about manufacturing?

All I can do is laugh man. What other job do you propose to replace manufacturing then?

 

[yllus]

75k is at the bottom of the top 28% so 79k is not 'easily' in the top 25%.

I'm any case, the farther away from the means of production you get, the less value add and hence the poorer you become.

Manufacturing no longer employs as many directly, but consider the implication of what you're saying.

No manufacturing = 86% of our exports go poof. 1.3 TRILLION per year.

So 9% of the workforce is responsible for 86% of our exports. That tells me that the other 91% aren't creating much of anything that anyone wants.

Whether an income of $79,000 is in the top 25% or 29% hardly matters; the point is that manufacturing doesn't appear to be the saviour of the lower and middle classes as it's purported to be in this thread. Once, manufacturing accounted for 55% of all employment and a case could be made for that, but it hasn't carried middle America for some time now.

Your statement that 91% of the workforce really isn't doing anything useful is indicative of one of two things: Either that you're romanticizing manufacturing to the point that you're liable to make silly, easily disproved statements, or you don't know the first thing about how a national economy works to begin with.

A broad hint I can provide you with is that exports are not the be-all and end-all of economic output. In America's case, I'm not sure they even ever made up the majority of economic output. Not understanding this equates to a fundamental lack of knowledge of economics.

All I can do is laugh man. What other job do you propose to replace manufacturing then?

I'm not proposing anything; that was never the point. In fact, I started by stating that manufacturing is important. But this idea that manufacturing is the only "true" industry because the output is physical is very, very tired, and should be considered for retirement by anyone who can look at the facts objectively.

 

[werepossum]

America (and the other Western nations) don't need manufacturing jobs; that's just our current shorthand for "America needs jobs a low-skill adult can do". That's not to denigrate people in manufacturing; there are obviously highly intelligent and highly skilled workers in that market. But the reason we say "America needs manufacturing" is because we're generally referring to jobs any human can be plugged in to do on fairly short notice. That minor point aside, let's talk about manufacturing.

I think for the most part, the economic savings we realize in North America by allowing foreign nations to build and sell us goods for cheaper than we ourselves could make them for are an obvious win. The commonly cited boogeymen of "forgetting" how to build things or what would occur if China one day decided to stop selling us things are ridiculous and unnecessary to disprove. However, I do wonder about the effect on the economy when spin-off companies from large manufacturers don't get their start in North America anymore.

A made up example: A tailor who works in the garment district of NYC who designs a new type of sewing machine to improve productivity or allows for a new design method; is that guy starting a Chinese company today instead of an American one? That worries me more than anything - we want new business to start here, not elsewhere.

Americans consume a great deal of physical wealth. People who manufacture that physical wealth want some thing in return. Setting aside the social and national security implications inherent in being unable to manufacture one's own requirements, to date we've been woefully unable to sell enough IP and non-tangible services to match what we import. That means as a nation either we have to borrow to meet that shortfall, or those other nations must spend the surplus on things that do not show up in our balance of trade. For the former, it should be immediately clear that when any entity must continually borrow to support its lifestyle - let alone borrow to pay the interest as we do - that entity is in serious trouble long term as debt servicing takes an ever-increasing portion of its income.

The latter may not be as obvious, but it's actually worse. With the surplus, other nations can buy two primary things that don't show up on our balance of trade, real estate and stocks and bonds. Bonds can be dismissed because everyone can understand that bonds inherently take more money in the long run, because they pay interest. Real estate is almost as clear, because with very few exceptions we aren't making any more land and the more of it is foreign owned, the less of it there is for us. (And the higher the price, both from increased competition and from reduced supply.) Stocks may not be quite so clear, but stocks are nothing more or less than shares of corporation's ownership. When those companies are foreign-owned, the profits they make will go to their foreign owners, leaving us even more in the whole. You're worried about new companies not being started in America, but we're losing huge existing companies with massive profits as corporations are increasingly foreign-owned and as corporations are forced to sell off divisions and product lines to stay in business.

As far as "forgetting" how to build things or what would occur if China one day decided to stop selling us things being boogeymen, ridiculous and unnecessary to disprove, I beg to differ. Manufacture of any modern product takes a great deal of specific knowledge. Even when a company starts from scratch, it does so by hiring people who already know how to design and manufacture that product or a closely related product. If we don't manufacture that product, we don't have those people, period. Worse, as we lose manufacturing we lose our commons, that common base of knowledge required to manufacture any product. How does a would-be manufacturer find someone who can maintain and repair a hosiery machine if the nation does not manufacture hosiery? How does that would-be manufacturer find someone who can design a hosiery machine, or predict its output, or plan how much room it needs? The answer is that it doesn't. If a nation can just decide to manufacture a product and do so there would be no poor nations; each would at the least manufacture enough goods to satisfy its own population's needs.

 

[glenn1]

Couldn't disagree more....in both terms of pay/benefits, which the lower and lower middle (hell, some solid middle class) people are missing as well as the 'on the job skills' that are learned in manufacturing, especially higher tech manufacturing.

You cannot import your way to prosperity...at least in today's current model.

Maybe if we all become one world economy, with one currency, where the US is the 'service sector department' and the remaining countries have their own 'department', sure...but until then, keep the printing presses (and bubbles) going to keep the middle class from falling completely off the map and then hope that the rest of the world continues to accept your printed money (not likely if we keep going, especially if we default like some people seem to want us to do).

Okay then, answer me this. If manufacturing is so important and one of the only 3 ways wealth is generated (along with farming and mining), would you be willing to trade the American workforce for the Chinese workforce straight up? In this scenario, the U.S. would have a vastly larger share of the workforce working in manufacturing and China would get all our service workers.

Would you make that swap?

 

[dank69]

Okay then, answer me this. If manufacturing is so important and one of the only 3 ways wealth is generated (along with farming and mining), would you be willing to trade the American workforce for the Chinese workforce straight up? In this scenario, the U.S. would have a vastly larger share of the workforce working in manufacturing and China would get all our service workers.

Would you make that swap?

It has nothing to do with the workers. It has to do with the physical process, whether it be done by people or robots.

 

[glenn1]

It has nothing to do with the workers. It has to do with the physical process, whether it be done by people or robots.

Fine then. Would you trade the U.S. "services" companies for China's manufacturing companies? The U.S. would give Google, Apple, Goldman Sachs, Walmart, Walt Disney, and the like; and in return the U.S. would get Huawei, Foxconn, Norinco, SAIC Motors, Baoshan Iron and Steel, and the like.

Would you take that trade?

 

[dank69]

Fine then. Would you trade the U.S. "services" companies for China's manufacturing companies? The U.S. would give Google, Apple, Goldman Sachs, Walmart, Walt Disney, and the like; and in return the U.S. would get Huawei, Foxconn, Norinco, SAIC Motors, Baoshan Iron and Steel, and the like.

Would you take that trade?

Why would I trade anything? I don't think that is the point being made. China has its own problems. That doesn't mean that we are perfect.

 

[shady28]

Fine then. Would you trade the U.S. "services" companies for China's manufacturing companies? The U.S. would give Google, Apple, Goldman Sachs, Walmart, Walt Disney, and the like; and in return the U.S. would get Huawei, Foxconn, Norinco, SAIC Motors, Baoshan Iron and Steel, and the like.

Would you take that trade?

For one, Apple is primarily a manufacturer.

And no I wouldn't want their obsolete, manpower intensive manufacturing industry. Or are you not aware that US manufacturing is still larger in terms of output than China's, it just requires far less manpower?

 

[glenn1]

For one, Apple is primarily a manufacturer.

And no I wouldn't want their obsolete, manpower intensive manufacturing industry. Or are you not aware that US manufacturing is still larger in terms of output than China's, it just requires far less manpower?

So then I'm confused. Do you want manufacturing so we have jobs for the uneducated proles, or for the "wealth creation" effect since you think that a factory that presses Windows 8 CDs creates value while the software content (Microsoft IP) is just a "service" that shifts value around instead of creating it?

 

[Engineer]

Wow, the pro service jobs people are out in force. Why is it that you guys cherry pick the service jobs that you want (i.e. Microsoft software writers) when it's the service jobs like Walmart, McDonalds, etc. that are replacing the manufacturing jobs that once employed former middle class employees? If we're going to give away good paying jobs for the masses and not replace them with something equivalent, we're just going to continue to fall...and it might just become ugly with the masses as they want more and more. They will get it in other ways if not though a decent paying job. Even Walmart has enough sense to see this (finally)...my goodness.

Why is it an all or nothing proposition with you guys?

I'm tired or arguing with you. You can look at the declining wages and benefits of the US as well as the rise in social safety nets and have nobody but yourselves to blame. Enjoy the declining US that you live in...and for the record, if you think your cushy service job is safe, think again. It won't stop with just manufacturing.....

Again, enjoy importing your way to prosperity. I'm sure we'll all be in jet planes soon with our roaring service economy. It's off to a great start.

If you can't look at the graphs from here and figure out what's going on, I don't know what to tell you....

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35517183&postcount=88

But hey, you got yours...fuck the guys below me....they aren't worth a shit and mean nothing to the US economy....damn leaches.

Bunch of elitist pricks around this place.

/Engineer out

 

[moonbogg]

I think this is a troll thread. Its clear that manufacturing is the economic backbone of all great nations. If you can't produce, then you are at the mercy of others.
As a mechanical designer, manufacturing is the foundation of my livelihood. It is exciting, dynamic and demands creative thinking. It doesn't pay too bad either, although MFG jobs are suffering here and salaries aren't what they used to be since the demand is less and less.
Regarding low level MFG jobs, well, they suck. They are still much better than working at Walmart and they place you in an environment where you can learn, grow and develop additional skills. It used to be that you could get a job at a MFG facility as a floor sweeper, learn the trade, go to school and then advance to higher level positions and arrive at a good paying position. I don't see too much of that anymore.
This was a great way for high school kids to go straight to the work force, learn the trade, go to school at the same time and get a strong foundation in a solid field. That's China's privilege now. Its a natural shifting of power I think, but it sucks for us.

 

[Zaap]

full retard

Likewise, you keep shifting your lack of education, marketable skills, intelligence, and worthiness for any type of higher salary or work other than at Walmart on someone else. Go fire up your Xbox, toke up, and blame 'da man!' for giving away "your" job.

I more than f'in sick of uneducated, unskilled, stupid people whining about the bed they made for themselves.

 

[shady28]

Likewise, you keep shifting your lack of education, marketable skills, intelligence, and worthiness for any type of higher salary or work other than at Walmart on someone else. Go fire up your Xbox, toke up, and blame 'da man!' for giving away "your" job.

I more than f'in sick of uneducated, unskilled, stupid people whining about the bed they made for themselves.

So.. bizarre post. I am pretty sure 'Engineer' is a controls engineer, as that's also related to my profession (though I would be more accurately described as a 'Software Engineer' within the controls engineering field, as I am not an EE). The average US salary for a controls engineer is 86k, although I and probably 'Engineer' are on the more senior side of that number.

Possibly by virtue of what controls engineering is about - bluntly, replacing people with machines - maybe we have a soft spot we shouldn't have. Or, maybe we have insight that you don't have.

So, what occupation do you have? Maybe I can come up with an efficiency solution for that.

How's this?

 

[B00ne]

Without reading everything, the importance of manufacturing is really quite simple: it's a world its own. Manufacturing requires a multitude of services which means without manufacturing a whole lot of services are not need unless these services can be provide abroad where manufacturing is... Manufacturing is a job multiplier

 

[stargazr]

Without reading everything, the importance of manufacturing is really quite simple: it's a world its own. Manufacturing requires a multitude of services which means without manufacturing a whole lot of services are not need unless these services can be provide abroad where manufacturing is... Manufacturing is a job multiplier

Indeed. We desperately NEED THESE JOBS!

[FONT=&quot]http://www.youtube.com/v/4FrGxO2Fn_M#action=share[/FONT]