what is the high tech difference in the amd vs intel cores?

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
ive looked everywhere for high tech info on this and cant be satisfied with it. figued you guys would know.

what makes an AMD different than an Intel core? how can you know what type of application each will accel in?

by different, i mean what is physically different like length, width, speed of pipeline, etc.
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
where they put the transistors (and how well they can make them... I hear intel has the best fabs around). A good book is Patterson & Henessey's Computer Organizatino and Design (I think I misspelled their names). It will help you understand processor design in enough detail to see where there could be differences.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
Originally posted by: CTho9305
where they put the transistors (and how well they can make them... I hear intel has the best fabs around). A good book is Patterson & Henessey's Computer Organizatino and Design (I think I misspelled their names). It will help you understand processor design in enough detail to see where there could be differences.

thanks for that info

ill go read up on that book
 

rimshaker

Senior member
Dec 7, 2001
722
0
0
Originally posted by: CTho9305
... I hear intel has the best fabs around).


Their biggest fab is in oregon.. TOTALLY awesome and huge. Went there during interview sessions (no didn't get hired :frown: ). I think the only other fab that can compete head to head is Taiwan Semiconductor.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
Originally posted by: rimshaker
Originally posted by: CTho9305
... I hear intel has the best fabs around).


Their biggest fab is in oregon.. TOTALLY awesome and huge. Went there during interview sessions (no didn't get hired :frown: ). I think the only other fab that can compete head to head is Taiwan Semiconductor.

what were you applying for
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
I'd recommend skipping Hennessey and Patterson for now, as great as it is that may be a little advanced to start with.

I'd recommend reading Ace's Hardware's " The Secrets of High Performance CPUs" parts 1-5 before doing anything else If you want to learn more jump to some of Ace's other technical articles as they have a large selection that are well suited to those just learning such things. Ars Technica also has a few artciles that are well worth reading.


Ars Technica CPU Theory
Ace's Hardware Technical Articles

If you want some quick reads then you may want to check out some of Paul Mazzucco's articles at SLCentral, they lack the depth of's Ace's or Ars Technica but their generally quick reads and fairly easy to understand.

If you still want to learn more try out...
Computer Organization and Design (Patterson, Hennessey)

If your still hungry for knowledge and feel you have a very solid understanding of all of the above you could try...
Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach (Hennessey, Patterson)

The last one is getting awfully complex, but it may as well be the bible on microprocessor architectural design. Definitely leave it until you have a very thorough understanding of what you've read in the others.


(OT: Does Paul Mazzucco still post on AT?)
 

rimshaker

Senior member
Dec 7, 2001
722
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0
Originally posted by: MrDudeManwhat were you applying for

Was interviewing as a Process engineer, basically a clean room guy, this was back in June. Unfortunately, intel announced 4000 job cuts a few weeks after i interviewed. Not surprisingly, they called back telling me they couldn't bring me on board after all :disgust: As you can see right now, the semiconductor companies still aren't doing so well.

 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
Originally posted by: rimshaker
Originally posted by: MrDudeManwhat were you applying for

Was interviewing as a Process engineer, basically a clean room guy, this was back in June. Unfortunately, intel announced 4000 job cuts a few weeks after i interviewed. Not surprisingly, they called back telling me they couldn't bring me on board after all :disgust: As you can see right now, the semiconductor companies still aren't doing so well.

sorry

at least you gave it a shot though, right?
 

BurntKooshie

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,204
0
0
Hola Rand.

Yeah, my articles at SLcentral tend not to be of quite the same technical depth as some others, but I might also point out that I've never once been paid

Actually, I'd say that two of my articles were as good as, if not better than (in some respects) some of the ones at Aces and Ars. I just don't have as many good ones ;-). The two that I'm thinking of precede their equivalent articles at Ars by over a year (in one case, about two), so I figure I have at least that going for me.

Enough of my trying to save my fragile ego. Go read Ars's "CPU Theory and Praxis" stuff. Hannibal writes good schtuff. Johan at Aces is pretty good too. Just read his a little more carefully -- english isn't his first language, so there's a slipup everynow and again. That said, his english is markedly better than most "enthusiest" sites', most of which are run by 'lil 20 year olds who were never taught how to speel or writ wel </rant mode>

For some other good stuff go to www.realworldtech.com. Paul DeMone is a phenominal writer, knows his stuff, and they just got a David Wang -- who is a grad student at my school, U of Maryland at College Park -- who also really knows his stuff.

Go lurk the forums (and I do mean lurk) at realworldtech. Paul DeMone will occasionally get into flamewars with the likes of Bill Todd, and a few others, but he's (usually) right. David Wang is the consumate proffessional; I've never seen him get into a flamewar. The reason I say lurk is 'cause if every newbie who had questions posted, the place would get cluttered.

Comp. Arch is also a lot of fun. LOTS of flamewas over there though -- after a couple weeks, you'll be able to tell who knows their stuff, who's being a jack-arse, who is mostly interested in how programming relates to CA, etc.

Um...as for your original question: It's really complicated. The guys above gave some good advice. If you are really into it, do what I recommended above (because, even if it is passive, watching others interact and talk about this is a great way to reinforce the material in the books/sites mentioned by others and myself).

To give a somewhat direct answer....

AMD and Intel implement (mostly) the same Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) -- (well, at least up through the P4 and the Athlon -- the Athlon64 and Itanium families have very, very little in common). This means that you can send the same instruction to any processor running the same ISA, and each one will spit out the same answer. The difference between Intel chips, and AMD chips (and old vs. new chips from their respective companies) is in how they implment it. You can have more cache, less cache, better branch prediction, worse BP, longer pipeline with the goal of a higher frequency, shorter for a smaller mispredict penalty, etc. Think of designing chips as a GIANT profit function (that's why these companies make chips, afterall). All of engineering work is dealing with tradeoffs. Designing a chip is no different -- AMD and Intel choose different tradeoffs.

How's that for vague?

BTW -- I think that IBM has a fab or two that can compete with Intel ;-)
 

Eskimo

Member
Jun 18, 2000
134
0
0
Originally posted by: rimshaker
Originally posted by: CTho9305
... I hear intel has the best fabs around).


Their biggest fab is in oregon.. TOTALLY awesome and huge. Went there during interview sessions (no didn't get hired :frown: ). I think the only other fab that can compete head to head is Taiwan Semiconductor.

Pffft, as a potential process engineer I would hope you realize there is a lot more to the sucessful fabricaton of integrated circuits than a nice looking building or expensive tool set. Only thing TSMC and the others can compete with is volume. No foundry can compete with the leading IDMs in terms of process technology and manufacturing prowess. As for Intel having the best, which fabs has Semiconductor International named fab of the year the past couple of years?
 

WeeWolf

Member
Dec 11, 2002
116
0
0
Call me crazy but when I'm interested in knowing a bit about what's going on inside this chip or that chip I read a few of the 'run down' articles either anand's Tom's or whoever has a nice one atm. If that doesn't satisfy me I'll read the manufacturer's papers on it. While being long winded and definately technical I like reading through them. I'm not an engineer I have some electronics repair history and such but in no way am I an engineer. While some of the white paper's info is a bit more than I'm looking for I find lacking an engineering degree or not having read some of the cpu design articles does not really get in the way of a good overall understanding.
G'luck
Jim
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
AMD and Intel implement (mostly) the same Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) -- (well, at least up through the P4 and the Athlon -- the Athlon64 and Itanium families have very, very little in common). This means that you can send the same instruction to any processor running the same ISA, and each one will spit out the same answer. The difference between Intel chips, and AMD chips (and old vs. new chips from their respective companies) is in how they implment it. You can have more cache, less cache, better branch prediction, worse BP, longer pipeline with the goal of a higher frequency, shorter for a smaller mispredict penalty, etc. Think of designing chips as a GIANT profit function (that's why these companies make chips, afterall). All of engineering work is dealing with tradeoffs. Designing a chip is no different -- AMD and Intel choose different tradeoffs.

this is what i was looking for. thanks
 

rimshaker

Senior member
Dec 7, 2001
722
0
0
Originally posted by: Eskimo
Pffft, as a potential process engineer I would hope you realize there is a lot more to the sucessful fabricaton of integrated circuits than a nice looking building or expensive tool set. Only thing TSMC and the others can compete with is volume. No foundry can compete with the leading IDMs in terms of process technology and manufacturing prowess. As for Intel having the best, which fabs has Semiconductor International named fab of the year the past couple of years?

Yes, as a process engr, I do realize some things. Like just because intel is the #1 chip company on wall street, it doesn't mean they're #1 in every single aspect of a fab. CPU's arent' even the most complex, cutting-edge chips to make.. it's the vid card GPU's actually. And who do you suppose makes those?

 
Jun 18, 2000
11,140
722
126
Originally posted by: rimshaker
CPU's arent' even the most complex, cutting-edge chips to make.. it's the vid card GPU's actually.
I disagree with the last statement. For having such "cutting-edge" designs, GPUs are slowly becoming more and more like general purpose processors - albeit massively parallel. They are only now able to do things that CPUs could do 10+ years ago.

If you mean cutting-edge in the sense that GPUs generally have higher transistor counts for each process generation, then I agree - but then again Intel ramps each process to much higher clock frequencies.
rimshaker continued...
And who do you suppose makes those?
Wasn't TSMC having trouble ramping its low-k .13um lines for volume production? Hell, there still isn't a high-volume GPU on the market built with 130nm. IMO, the only companies that can compete with Intel regarding fab technology is IBM or AMD.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
0
Originally posted by: Eskimo
Originally posted by: rimshaker
Originally posted by: CTho9305
... I hear intel has the best fabs around).


Their biggest fab is in oregon.. TOTALLY awesome and huge. Went there during interview sessions (no didn't get hired :frown: ). I think the only other fab that can compete head to head is Taiwan Semiconductor.

Pffft, as a potential process engineer I would hope you realize there is a lot more to the sucessful fabricaton of integrated circuits than a nice looking building or expensive tool set. Only thing TSMC and the others can compete with is volume. No foundry can compete with the leading IDMs in terms of process technology and manufacturing prowess. As for Intel having the best, which fabs has Semiconductor International named fab of the year the past couple of years?
I believe AMD's Fab30 in Dresden won it last year. I hear that is an awesome fab, but it's not like I'll be seeing it anytime soon.

But I would be surprised if Intel's Fab11x in New Mexico didn't win it this year... At 200,000 sq ft of cleanroom space, it's Intel's largest fab. Combine that with the fact that it produces the lowest emissions and water consumption per chip and is the first high volume 300mm facility, with fully automated wafer handling, makes it possibly the most advanced plant in the world.

D1C in Oregon was the first 300mm Fab, but it's primarily for development. D1D will be the next great fab next year.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Pffft, as a potential process engineer I would hope you realize there is a lot more to the sucessful fabricaton of integrated circuits than a nice looking building or expensive tool set. Only thing TSMC and the others can compete with is volume. No foundry can compete with the leading IDMs in terms of process technology and manufacturing prowess. As for Intel having the best, which fabs has Semiconductor International named fab of the year the past couple of years?
I agree with the comment about TSMC.

Changing the subject slightly, it was interesting to compare and contrast all of the 0.09um process technology papers at IEDM last month. Since they pretty much all followed one after another in that session, there was more of an ability to compare apples to apples back to back. I personally thought that there was a clear winner in terms of who has the most advanced 0.09um process that is closest to market... but probably no one would be surprised who I thought that was... Still, for anyone who is interested in process technology, I would recommend grabbing a copy of the proceedings from IEDM. It was pretty interesting stuff.
 

Eskimo

Member
Jun 18, 2000
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Originally posted by: Wingznut
I believe AMD's Fab30 in Dresden won it last year. I hear that is an awesome fab, but it's not like I'll be seeing it anytime soon.

But I would be surprised if Intel's Fab11x in New Mexico didn't win it this year... At 200,000 sq ft of cleanroom space, it's Intel's largest fab. Combine that with the fact that it produces the lowest emissions and water consumption per chip and is the first high volume 300mm facility, with fully automated wafer handling, makes it possibly the most advanced plant in the world.

D1C in Oregon was the first 300mm Fab, but it's primarily for development. D1D will be the next great fab next year.

Technically SC300 in Dresden, a joint venture between Infineon and Motorola was the first 300mm fab. However I believe that you are correct in that D1C was the first full production 300mm fab.

The SI Fab of the year recipients for the past 3 years were:
1999: White Oak Semiconductor, Sandston, Virginia, USA
2000: 3 winners: IBM, Burlington, Vermont, USA; TSMC Fab5, Hsin-Chu, Taiwan; Infineon/Motorola SC300 Dresden, Germany
2001: AMD Fab30, Dresden, Germany
2002: 2 winners: LSI Logic, Greshem, Oregon, USA; SilTerra, Kulim, Malaysia
 

Mrpilot007

Senior member
Jan 5, 2003
227
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Back to the original question... to sum it up, the AMD does more processes per cycle than the Intel (for the moment at least). That is why AMD lists their processors names as 2100+ etc., bc it compairs to an Intel 2.1ghz or higher. Bottom line is that it is a better bang for you buck! (sorry no sources listed)

This is not an appropriate response in Highly Technical.

AnandTech Moderator
 

Woodchuck2000

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2002
1,632
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Just a quick question that is roughly related to thread title:
How does the clock for clock performance of the P4/Athlon compare to the original pentium?
I'm just curious how much the design has improved and how much of the gain is because of the 51x clock speed increase (60MHz -> 3.06GHz :Q)
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
Originally posted by: Mrpilot007
Back to the original question... to sum it up, the AMD does more processes per cycle than the Intel (for the moment at least). That is why AMD lists their processors names as 2100+ etc., bc it compairs to an Intel 2.1ghz or higher. Bottom line is that it is a better bang for you buck! (sorry no sources listed)

this sounds more like a fanboy type of arguement. facts would be nice instead of "its faster"....
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
Originally posted by: Woodchuck2000
Just a quick question that is roughly related to thread title:
How does the clock for clock performance of the P4/Athlon compare to the original pentium?
I'm just curious how much the design has improved and how much of the gain is because of the 51x clock speed increase (60MHz -> 3.06GHz :Q)

It looks like the original pentium takes 1 or more cycles for all instructions. IIRC, superscalar processors often have instructions effectively taking less than one clock, so the IPC is better.
 

everman

Lifer
Nov 5, 2002
11,288
1
0
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
Originally posted by: Mrpilot007
Back to the original question... to sum it up, the AMD does more processes per cycle than the Intel (for the moment at least). That is why AMD lists their processors names as 2100+ etc., bc it compairs to an Intel 2.1ghz or higher. Bottom line is that it is a better bang for you buck! (sorry no sources listed)

this sounds more like a fanboy type of arguement. facts would be nice instead of "its faster"....

Somewhat the case when comparing different processors. Just because your cpu runs at xGHZ does not mean it's faster than something that runs at a lower clock speed. What also matters is how much is done per clock cycle. That can also mean that you can have 2 CPUs running at 1GHZ, but if one CPU gets 2x as much done per cycle than the other, I think you can get the idea there. That's what AMD is doing with their labeling, saying their cpu is a 2000+ meaning that it competes with Intel CPUs running at around 2ghz even though that amd cpu does run at a lower clock speed, it gets more done per cycle.

Check out arstechnica.com for some more highly technical cpu info.
 

PentiumIV

Member
Feb 19, 2001
56
0
0
Originally posted by: CTho9305
It looks like the original pentium takes 1 or more cycles for all instructions. IIRC, superscalar processors often have instructions effectively taking less than one clock, so the IPC is better.

Original Pentium/Pentium MMX(P5/P54C/P55C) could execute upto 2 simple instructions per clock, if they could be paired.
They were 2-way inorder superscalar processors.

Pentium PRO/II/III could decode upto 3 macroinstructions, and retire upto 3 micro-instructions, if conditions are right.
They are 3-way out-of-order superscalar processors, named so, because they may execute uops out of their program order.

The same can be said about Athlon(K7) and Pentium4 family. But internaly these are entirely different machines.

- Athlon uses conventional decoding; Pentium4 uses trace cache.
- Bus is totally different: Athlon uses point-to-point bus, while Pentium4 uses shared bus.
and so and so on.

Gregory A. Pribush Jr.
Pentium(R) M processor design team.
 
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