What is the "liberal" view on home schooling?

[alchemize]

I'm just curious on this. My wife is considering home schooling. Home schooling appears to be tremendously successful when you look at test scores, the pace of advancement, etc. Also when there are "co-ops" that combine groups of home schoolers for social activities, and beign allowed to participate in public school events like sports, clubs, etc. the "socialization concern" is diminished.

In the U.S. in 1999, homeschoolers scored about 27% higher than public-schooled children on refereed nationally-normed tests.

My assumption is that libs would be against it, because it certainly takes the power out of the hands of government. And teachers unions. And it makes a liberal brainwashed education more difficult

I'm pretty sure libertarians buy into it And conservatives...so all you pinko lefties out there, argue against it (if that is the view)

 

[308nato]

Seek the official NEA position and ye shall find what you need.

 

[Zebo]

I'm for it. Public schools are immoral, unsafe and dumbed down. Mine Go to a private called St. Anns Elementry. Very cheap at $2900 ea. Compared to montisori and the like.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

I don't find anything wrong with it. Being in college now, I know what home schooled kids can be like (granted I go to a very nerdy engineering school). But I'd never subject my child to become such a loser. I mean, if he was naturally a loser like his father, that would be fine. I don't think its a good solution just because of the massive amount of sheltering that goes on. I've seen what kind of kids it produces. I'd rather send my child to a quality and ethnically diverse public school system, which more mirrors the real world then home schooling or stuffy private schools.

 

[bigdog1218]

I'm just curious about some things,
Do most kids have home schooling all through hs? Or is it mostly for lower level education? And when you say home schooling do you imply that the parents provide the education, or are people hired to come to the house to teach. Cause I would much rather go to school and learn from teachers, especially for advanced classes, than have to listen to my parents all day.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
I don't find anything wrong with it. Being in college now, I know what home schooled kids can be like (granted I go to a very nerdy engineering school). But I'd never subject my child to become such a loser. I mean, if he was naturally a loser like his father, that would be fine. I don't think its a good solution just because of the massive amount of sheltering that goes on. I've seen what kind of kids it produces. I'd rather send my child to a quality and ethnically diverse public school system, which more mirrors the real world then home schooling or stuffy private schools.

Nice to see the kind hearted liberals singling out the "nerds" and "losers" that aren't stamped out of the same mold they came from. How diverse.

But you are in college, so maybe when you enter the world of employment you'll really find out what the "real world" is. I can tell you now, it isn't jack like public schools (where I attended). I work with a few people I went to high school with who managed to rise above the drug and gang infested school. I run into a lot more of my classmates when I'm pumping gas, ordering at McDonald's, or reading the police newsblotter.

 

[bigdog1218]

Public schools are immoral, unsafe and dumbed down

My public school was very safe and very competitive, and was better than any of the local private schools, but nice try on the generalization.

But you are in college, so maybe when you enter the world of employment you'll really find out what the "real world" is. I can tell you now, it isn't jack like public schools (where I attended). I work with a few people I went to high school with who managed to rise above the drug and gang infested school. I run into a lot more of my classmates when I'm pumping gas, ordering at McDonald's, or reading the police newsblotter.

Well being an engineer and working in several diifferent sectors and types of jobs I've noticed that the smart people get good jobs, regardless of where they went to school, and where you attended high school means nothing once you are in college. High school is used to get you into college, once your in it's meaningless.

 

[gistech1978]

-i think the parents should be given a test before teaching another year, you have to pass the 6th grade test then in the summer you have to pass the 7th grade one.

-if bush admin is all for these performance and testing mandates in our public schools, homeschooling shouldnt be any different.

-where did you get this 27% higher figure from?

-by a liberal brainwashed education you mean.....evolution, sex ed, the Earth is actually older than 4000 years old & that fossils WERENT put on earth by god to test our faith?

i want some examples of your "libearl brainwashed education". were you a product of public schools?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Public schools are immoral, unsafe and dumbed down

My public school was very safe and very competitive, and was better than any of the local private schools, but nice try on the generalization.

We all generalize that's what makes us humans rather than computers. My oldest 5 at the time was stabbed buy those elcheapo plastic scissors, no harm, but the kid was allowed to remain in the animal house. No disapline. No parenting. No math and reading. Today he's 10 and writting in crusive and doing algerbra. Try that in public.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Public schools are immoral, unsafe and dumbed down

My public school was very safe and very competitive, and was better than any of the local private schools, but nice try on the generalization.

But you are in college, so maybe when you enter the world of employment you'll really find out what the "real world" is. I can tell you now, it isn't jack like public schools (where I attended). I work with a few people I went to high school with who managed to rise above the drug and gang infested school. I run into a lot more of my classmates when I'm pumping gas, ordering at McDonald's, or reading the police newsblotter.

Well being an engineer and working in several diifferent sectors and types of jobs I've noticed that the smart people get good jobs, regardless of where they went to school, and where you attended high school means nothing once you are in college. High school is used to get you into college, once your in it's meaningless.

Agreed. High school gets you into college. So don't you want the high school (and earlier) education to be the absolute best possible?

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
I don't find anything wrong with it. Being in college now, I know what home schooled kids can be like (granted I go to a very nerdy engineering school). But I'd never subject my child to become such a loser. I mean, if he was naturally a loser like his father, that would be fine. I don't think its a good solution just because of the massive amount of sheltering that goes on. I've seen what kind of kids it produces. I'd rather send my child to a quality and ethnically diverse public school system, which more mirrors the real world then home schooling or stuffy private schools.

Nice to see the kind hearted liberals singling out the "nerds" and "losers" that aren't stamped out of the same mold they came from. How diverse.

But you are in college, so maybe when you enter the world of employment you'll really find out what the "real world" is. I can tell you now, it isn't jack like public schools (where I attended). I work with a few people I went to high school with who managed to rise above the drug and gang infested school. I run into a lot more of my classmates when I'm pumping gas, ordering at McDonald's, or reading the police newsblotter.

Chill out. Homeschooled kids turn out to be losers, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I went to a public school in a middle class New Jersey community (there were much better public school systems in the wealthier towns around me) and I can say that it was a good education. I've seen how sheltered some kids can be, and I know it isn't good. These kids were overprotected by their parents and either rebel like crazy when they get to college (read: alcohol and drug problems) or are too socially awkward to interact with their peers.

That's why I don't believe in homeschooling, because its a signal that the parent is being overly protective and cautious when he probably doesn't need to be. Of course, in cases where the child's safety is in jeopardy, a parent should take his child out of that situation.

 

[ClueLis]

I don't have a real problem with it. If the parent has a reasonable idea of what he/she is doing, the child has a chance to advance at their own pace with material that they find easy or difficult. It does, though, present a bit of a challenge when the kid is reintroduced into the normal school system, as in my experience with home-schooled kids is that they are way ahead in some areas, but a bit behind in others. The only other issue is the social aspect, but it sounds like you have a pretty decent plan to fix that. There are advantages and disadvantages to it, and if you wish to homeschool your kid, then go ahead, he'll probably turn out fine.

Oh, and I am one of those "pinkos" you were referring to.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: gistech1978


-i think the parents should be given a test before teaching another year, you have to pass the 6th grade test then in the summer you have to pass the 7th grade one.
You'll find that most homeschoolers will pass the 8th grade test

-if bush admin is all for these performance and testing mandates in our public schools, homeschooling shouldnt be any different.
see above

-where did you get this 27% higher figure from?
a homeschooling website. I assume there is a study to back it up. I'll search

-by a liberal brainwashed education you mean.....evolution, sex ed, the Earth is actually older than 4000 years old & that fossils WERENT put on earth by god to test our faith?
More of a joke on my part. But basically I think if I, as a parent, chose to teach creationism over evolution, who are you (the government) to question my right to do that? (likely, I'd teach both).

-i want some examples of your "libearl brainwashed education". were you a product of public schools?
I was a product of public schools yes. I won't go down the liberal education path, that's a matter of opinion For me, it's really more an issue of better education.

 

[Zebo]

-by a liberal brainwashed education you mean.....evolution, sex ed, the Earth is actually older than 4000 years old & that fossils WERENT put on earth by god to test our faith?

Evolution is'nt inconsisitant with creationism or faith unless you're a young earth creationist. It's simply the tool God used

 

[gistech1978]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: gistech1978


-i think the parents should be given a test before teaching another year, you have to pass the 6th grade test then in the summer you have to pass the 7th grade one.
You'll find that most homeschoolers will pass the 8th grade test

-if bush admin is all for these performance and testing mandates in our public schools, homeschooling shouldnt be any different.
see above

-where did you get this 27% higher figure from?
a homeschooling website. I assume there is a study to back it up. I'll search

-by a liberal brainwashed education you mean.....evolution, sex ed, the Earth is actually older than 4000 years old & that fossils WERENT put on earth by god to test our faith?
More of a joke on my part. But basically I think if I, as a parent, chose to teach creationism over evolution, who are you (the government) to question my right to do that? (likely, I'd teach both).

-i want some examples of your "libearl brainwashed education". were you a product of public schools?
I was a product of public schools yes. I won't go down the liberal education path, that's a matter of opinion For me, it's really more an issue of better education.

i wasnt referring to child being tested. but since that is a (unfunded) mandate of the NCLB act, that both teachers and students be given performance evals, then homeschoolers should too.

creationism vs evolution....lets see one is grounded on science fact, the other is opinion. but im not going to say you cant teach an opinion. thats your choice.

i figured your 27% was from a pro-homeschool source. im not going to find anything contrary to that, i dont have the desire. because everyone here knows that statistics can be skewed any way you want them to. was this 27% higher than college bound students, the whole universe of students, the students with learning disabilities....im sure you can see my point.

i have no idea what you do for a living, but since youre on AT...(this might be way too much of an assumption) that you are at least moderately intelligent, you probably went to college and got a decent job. what was so wrong with your education then?

 

[BOBDN]

Well, homeschooling really helps the kids learn how to get along with other kids.

 

[bigdog1218]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Public schools are immoral, unsafe and dumbed down

My public school was very safe and very competitive, and was better than any of the local private schools, but nice try on the generalization.

We all generalize that's what makes us humans rather than computers. My oldest 5 at the time was stabbed buy those elcheapo plastic scissors, no harm, but the kid was allowed to remain in the animal house. No disapline. No parenting. No math and reading. Today he's 10 and writting in crusive and doing algerbra. Try that in public.

Generalization makes us retarded not human. Try that in public?. Is that a threat? You spend $3000 a year to send your 10 year old to school. Whats a private high school cost, 10,000, 15,000, more for the better ones. So human generalization #1, everyones has enough money and can afford $50,000 of schooling before they have to pay $100,000 for college, and thats for one kid, not gonna happen.

And whats with the hatred of public schools. Your kid can write in cursive at 10 therefore all public schools are horrible, yeah that makes sense. If you aren't happy with your public schools and are so concerned about your childs education, move. But as I get my chemical engineering degree, and talk to my friends at Harvard, MIT, Columbia, Cornell, UPenn, and any other ivy league school I'll be sure to remind them of how bad all public schools are.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: BOBDN
Well, homeschooling really helps the kids learn how to get along with other kids.

you must have been homeschooled, because I can't think of anyone that get's along with others better than you

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: bigdog1218

Public schools are immoral, unsafe and dumbed down

My public school was very safe and very competitive, and was better than any of the local private schools, but nice try on the generalization.

We all generalize that's what makes us humans rather than computers. My oldest 5 at the time was stabbed buy those elcheapo plastic scissors, no harm, but the kid was allowed to remain in the animal house. No disapline. No parenting. No math and reading. Today he's 10 and writting in crusive and doing algerbra. Try that in public.

Generalization makes us retarded not human. Try that in public?. Is that a threat? You spend $3000 a year to send your 10 year old to school. Whats a private high school cost, 10,000, 15,000, more for the better ones. So human generalization #1, everyones has enough money and can afford $50,000 of schooling before they have to pay $100,000 for college, and thats for one kid, not gonna happen.

And whats with the hatred of public schools. Your kid can write in cursive at 10 therefore all public schools are horrible, yeah that makes sense. If you aren't happy with your public schools and are so concerned about your childs education, move. But as I get my chemical engineering degree, and talk to my friends at Harvard, MIT, Columbia, Cornell, UPenn, and any other ivy league school I'll be sure to remind them of how bad all public schools are.

Those are all privates. Your fiends are smart.

 

[alchemize]

Here's a homeschooling study:

link

Looks like a decent non-biased conclusion:

Major findings include: the achievement test scores of this group of home school students are exceptionally high--the median scores were typically in the 70th to 80th percentile; 25% of home school students are enrolled one or more grades above their age-level public and private school peers; this group of home school parents has more formal education than parents in the general population; the median income for home school families is significantly higher than that of all families with children in the United States; and almost all home school students are in married couple families. Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution. The report clearly suggests, however, that home school students do quite well in that educational environment.

This site is pretty pissed about it. Here's why:

The findings of this study cannot be used to make accurate statements about homeschoolers in general. Citing this study will support those who want to require that homeschoolers take state-mandated tests and will force homeschools to become more like conventional schools. Therefore, we should not use this study ourselves and should be prepared to correct those who cite it.

Who to believe The second one is from a very highly libertarian perspective I think. I'm a little more moderate.

I'm finding this is a highly politicized topic. Interesting

Here's something about the political power of the NEA:

In an article appearing in The School Choice Advocate (September 2002), Williams stated:


For each of the 75,396 members of . . . [WEA], $683 in wages is automatically withheld as 'dues' each year?a staggering $51,495,468 per year. Based on our investigations, no more than 20 percent of that amount is actually being used for traditional, chargeable union functions, such as collective bargaining [or] maintenance of the contract and grievances. The rest, $41,196,375 is used for other, mainly political purposes. This means one union in one state has more than $80 million to spend per two year election cycle. That is six to eight times the amount spent from voluntary sources by Republicans and Democrats in Washington State.


Homeschoolers should keep this in mind as they ponder the NEA's long held position that homeschooling should only be allowed if certified teachers and approved curriculum are involved. Eternal vigilance continues to be the price of freedom!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Here's a homeschooling study:

link

Looks like a decent non-biased conclusion:

Major findings include: the achievement test scores of this group of home school students are exceptionally high--the median scores were typically in the 70th to 80th percentile; 25% of home school students are enrolled one or more grades above their age-level public and private school peers; this group of home school parents has more formal education than parents in the general population; the median income for home school families is significantly higher than that of all families with children in the United States; and almost all home school students are in married couple families. Because this was not a controlled experiment, the study does not demonstrate that home schooling is superior to public or private schools and the results must be interpreted with caution. The report clearly suggests, however, that home school students do quite well in that educational environment.

This site is pretty pissed about it. Here's why:

The findings of this study cannot be used to make accurate statements about homeschoolers in general. Citing this study will support those who want to require that homeschoolers take state-mandated tests and will force homeschools to become more like conventional schools. Therefore, we should not use this study ourselves and should be prepared to correct those who cite it.

Who to believe The second one is from a very highly libertarian perspective I think. I'm a little more moderate.

I'm finding this is a highly politicized topic. Interesting

Here's something about the political power of the NEA:

In an article appearing in The School Choice Advocate (September 2002), Williams stated:


For each of the 75,396 members of . . . [WEA], $683 in wages is automatically withheld as 'dues' each year?a staggering $51,495,468 per year. Based on our investigations, no more than 20 percent of that amount is actually being used for traditional, chargeable union functions, such as collective bargaining [or] maintenance of the contract and grievances. The rest, $41,196,375 is used for other, mainly political purposes. This means one union in one state has more than $80 million to spend per two year election cycle. That is six to eight times the amount spent from voluntary sources by Republicans and Democrats in Washington State.


Homeschoolers should keep this in mind as they ponder the NEA's long held position that homeschooling should only be allowed if certified teachers and approved curriculum are involved. Eternal vigilance continues to be the price of freedom!

Who to believe? The laviathan government who can't control itself, remains unresponsive to it's citizens, slow moving, seeks to hire it's friends and grow itself at a never ending rate? Or the parents themselves?

 

[Shelly21]

I'm have some liberal views, so I'll take a st^b at it asuming that I have kids....

If the school district is terrible compare to the others around it, I'd consider it, and If I have time.

I may send my kids to private school instead because at this point, I don't have time to home school my kids, but "regardless of public or private" I will have to find time to supplement their learning by spending an hour or two with them. Teaching ahead helps them get ahead of the class.

Nothing wrong with home schooling if there are clubs for "after school" activity to develop their social skills. It also helps the public school system by reducing their class size.

 

[heartsurgeon]

liberals don't care about the actual details of your child's education, just that you pay the appropriate taxes to fund
public education, because the democrats are tools of the teacher's union's. the real question should be, would liberals
support PAYING the parent who does the home schooling (through a tax-rebate, or VOUCHER)!

of course not, it is anathema to them to financially support alternatives to the local public schools.

 

[Shelly21]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
liberals don't care about the actual details of your child's education, just that you pay the appropriate taxes to fund
public education, because the democrats are tools of the teacher's union's. the real question should be, would liberals
support PAYING the parent who does the home schooling (through a tax-rebate, or VOUCHER)!

of course not, it is anathema to them to financially support alternatives to the local public schools.

Hey, If I'm sending my kids to private school, I expect my tax-rebate or voucher.

 

[Athanasius]

Well, this subject has come up a few times on Anandtech.

I am a product of the public school system. My wife has her M.Ed from the University of Maryland and has taught in the public schools. We currently homeschool our kids, with the present thought seeming to be that we will send them to public high school.

So, I can't speak for the "liberal" view on homeschooling but such stereotypes are probably meaningless anyway.

I can say that the "socialization" fear is overblown, assuming that the parents take some steps (co-ops, sports, camps, etc.) to expose the kids to socializing in diverse groups/settings. But I would hardly call the "socialization" that occurs in the public school system an intrinsically good thing.

Socialization is immensely important; it does not follow that the current cultural standard is benevolent. Sticking thirty kids of the same age together in a class setting is hardly real-life socialization. It tends to lead to false standards about who is "cool," false standards about who is a "loser," and therefore harmful behaviors done in the name of "fitting in."

For that matter, it is not hard to see how harmful it can be when the fourteen year old thinks that the seventeen year old is so grown up, brilliant, and, caring, and committed. Such things are not good for the fourteen year old or the seventeen year old.

Before I get flamed, remember that I am not an enemy of the public school system. I came through it ok, my wife has taught in it (and may do so again), and my kids will probably spend a significant part of their education in it.