What is the most effective man powered transporation tool?

NeoPTLD

Platinum Member
Nov 23, 2001
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I have been riding a razor scooter for a week or two and I've noticed for the given effort, it's much less effective than a bicycle or a pair of rollerblades. For one thing, you can only use one leg for propulsion and it's not utilizing the muscles the same way as pedaling a bicycle.

To be efficient and effectively utilize our body, the machine has to have minimal mechanical loss, speed/force matching with gearing so that your muscles can work in optimal range and arranged in a way to utilize our muscles well.

Is there anything that can utilize our strong muscles better than a bicycle and is more effective as a transportation tool?

 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
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I've seen vehicles sort of like bicycles, but with the seat lower to the ground, with your back against it and legs in front of you, rather than just having your seat under your butt. The muscle utilization ends up very different this way (IMO better).
 

ZL1

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2003
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Originally posted by: NeoPTLD
I have been riding a razor scooter for a week or two and I've noticed for the given effort, it's much less effective than a bicycle or a pair of rollerblades. For one thing, you can only use one leg for propulsion and it's not utilizing the muscles the same way as pedaling a bicycle.

To be efficient and effectively utilize our body, the machine has to have minimal mechanical loss, speed/force matching with gearing so that your muscles can work in optimal range and arranged in a way to utilize our muscles well.

Is there anything that can utilize our strong muscles better than a bicycle and is more effective as a transportation tool?

well Id say the good ol bicycle
thats why its still around, good things always stand up to the test of time (gen-wise)


D
 

Mingon

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2000
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Its the horizontal bicycles iirc because the positioning uses the larger muscles, making it easier to go faster.
 

vegetation

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Feb 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: glugglug
I've seen vehicles sort of like bicycles, but with the seat lower to the ground, with your back against it and legs in front of you, rather than just having your seat under your butt. The muscle utilization ends up very different this way (IMO better).

Those are recumbant bicycles. You sit on a chair with your back resting, and power the pedals that are in front of you. They are considerably more efficient on flats and downhills (to a certain extent), however the reason is because of aerodynamics. As anyone can tell you, doing anything more than 20mph on a flats with a regular road bike gets pretty tough because of wind resistance. Due to its design, a recumbant has a profile much more aerodynamic. In addition, a major issue with road biking at high speeds is getting into an aero position which involves flattening the back as much as possible while still keeping your head up to see the road. That can cause a lot of fatigue and upper body aches. For this reason alone, it's easy (relatively) to ride a recumbant over 100 miles versus a traditional road bike the same distance on flat roads. Recumbants are not very good at uphills though. The same rider would blow away his own time on an uphill course riding a traditional road bike over a recumbant.
 

Peter

Elite Member
Oct 15, 1999
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Recumbant bikes are good because of their aerodynamics, low center of gravity and relaxed sitting position, but less effective on muscle usage because (a) you can't stand up to have your weight help push the pedal down on steep inclines and (b) you can't pull the pedals upward using the rear thigh muscle because the seat doesn't keep your arse from sliding forward instead.

For the same reason, those sit-down "bike trainers" often seen in gyms are not good. They exercise only the large front thigh muscle, and completely ignore the rear one.
 

Matthias99

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Oct 7, 2003
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In one of my engineering physics classes, we looked at efficency of bicycles. You can apparently get the mechanical efficency (work out / work in) to about 90% in good conditions -- a tight, well-oiled chain drive has very little frictional loss.

Skateboards lose a lot more energy to friction with the ground, since they use hard wheels rather than pneumatic tires.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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As far as I know, bicycles are the most efficient form of transportation in terms of energy in and distance out. And that's more efficient by far. I beg to differ slightly with Peter about some of the characteristics of a recumbant, namely that you get less effective muscle usage. When you stand up on a bikd, that's it. Whatever your weight is is all that you're going to exert on the pedals. Not so in a recumbant. I have found three things that I don't care for in recumbants: (1) You're lower to the ground. You're exchanging view for strealining. (2) When Foamy, the rabid dog, runs out at you, you're often face-to-face if Foamy is big. (3) When you see a large, unavoidable pothole ahead, brace yourself. On a conventional bike you'd stand up to let your legs absorb the shock. No such luck on a recumbant. You have to take it like a man -- unless, of course, you're a woman, then you have to take it like a woman.
 

Peter

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Oct 15, 1999
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Yes, the force you can push down onto the pedals can be higher than your weight in a recumbant, because you have the seat to lean against. However it's all from your quadriceps muscles, and none from your weight. And because of the seat shape, you can only push the pedals down, not pull them back up like you can on a standard bike. So you don't get to use the other half of your leg muscles for propulsion.

That's why I said the recumbant is being less efficient in muscle usage. It might still be more effective altogether.
 

rjain

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May 1, 2003
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Taking a pothole like a woman is hardly as bad as taking it like a man.

If recumbants are more efficient overall, why don't they use them in races? Are they forbidden, or are the view considerations more important? If anyone would be able to get more power out of a device that can theoretically allow you to give more power, it would be someone who has trained on that device for most of their lives.
 

dkozloski

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Back in the very early 1900's a man road a bicycle from Dawson City, Yukon Territory in Canada to Nome, Alaska in the dead of winter. The average temperature was something colder than -50deg. F. The only trail was the sled dog route used to haul mail between the two towns. The trails consisted of two hardened ruts in feet deep snow about three inches wide and about two feet apart. After some practice he was able to keep the bicycle upright on one rut. There were roadhouses, trading posts, and villages along the trail separated by about a days travel that provided rest stops. At times though he still had to camp out on the trail with what equipment he could carry with him. The trip took about 5-6 weeks and covered a distance of over a thousand miles through some of the most rugged terrain on earth. Let's see some of those Tour de France wimps try that. The man's name was Ed Jesson.
 

Peter

Elite Member
Oct 15, 1999
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rjain, yes, there are very narrow regulations on what a race bike is supposed to look like. Recumbants are totally off limits - there even are regulations on how far forward the rider may lean before it's illegal. No aerodynamic tricks allowed - just honest pedalling in the classic position.
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
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Originally posted by: Peter
Yes, the force you can push down onto the pedals can be higher than your weight in a recumbant, because you have the seat to lean against. However it's all from your quadriceps muscles, and none from your weight. And because of the seat shape, you can only push the pedals down, not pull them back up like you can on a standard bike. So you don't get to use the other half of your leg muscles for propulsion.

That's why I said the recumbant is being less efficient in muscle usage. It might still be more effective altogether.


The muscles that pull the leg up aren't anywhere near as strong as the ones that push it down, and they tire more easily.

With your back against the seat you can easily push forward with more than double your weight.
 

Peter

Elite Member
Oct 15, 1999
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Correct, they're weaker than the front ones. However, ask any long distance biker about how using them contributes to a smooth and effective propulsion.
Standing up on the regular bike is not done to raise the force, but to use the body weight to offload the quadrizeps under high load. This is done to keep it from going anaerobic - because when that happens, you're dead meat for this day, the muscle is not going to recover from that.
So actually, although you can for sure exert a much higher force onto the pedals when seated in a recumbant, the standing-up trick on the classic bike still lets you maintain a higher uphill speed without blowing your oxygen budget.
 

NeoPTLD

Platinum Member
Nov 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: Matthias99
In one of my engineering physics classes, we looked at efficency of bicycles. You can apparently get the mechanical efficency (work out / work in) to about 90% in good conditions -- a tight, well-oiled chain drive has very little frictional loss.

Skateboards lose a lot more energy to friction with the ground, since they use hard wheels rather than pneumatic tires.

Mechanical efficiency is one thing, effectiveness is another.

A direct drive (no chain or gears) design like those from turn of the 20th century is more mechanically efficient as there's no drive train to lose power on, but such setup doesn't give you enough reduction to effectively use force from your muscle.




 

Bulldozer

Senior member
Oct 12, 2001
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I haven't ridden a recumbant but I don't like the idea of the riding position. On a conventional bicycle you are in an aggressive position where are can quickly react and bail if you need to. The recumbant seems like it makes the rider much more vulnerable.





Originally posted by: dkozloski
Back in the very early 1900's a man road a bicycle from Dawson City, Yukon Territory in Canada to Nome, Alaska in the dead of winter. The average temperature was something colder than -50deg. F. The only trail was the sled dog route used to haul mail between the two towns. The trails consisted of two hardened ruts in feet deep snow about three inches wide and about two feet apart. After some practice he was able to keep the bicycle upright on one rut. There were roadhouses, trading posts, and villages along the trail separated by about a days travel that provided rest stops. At times though he still had to camp out on the trail with what equipment he could carry with him. The trip took about 5-6 weeks and covered a distance of over a thousand miles through some of the most rugged terrain on earth. Let's see some of those Tour de France wimps try that. The man's name was Ed Jesson.


That's one of the dumbest things I've read on these boards. What does foolishly riding in hellish conditions have to do with someone being a man? Do you consider those idiots that go over Niagara Falls real men too?

 

dkozloski

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Bulldozer, the ride was not done as a stunt, it was done for transportation. The feat was duplicated by a man named Max Hirschberg later the same year. The bicycles used for the trip were what would be called a cruiser today. The tires had a fairley large cross section and were chain drive with a fixed gear ratio. The point I was trying to make was that people did things as a matter of course back then that are considered unimaginable today and they didn't need fancy machinery to do it. In the 1930's two friends of mine carried 20 tons of freight and supplies on packboards from Fairbanks, Alaska to Livengood, Alaska, a mining camp, 72 miles in the dead of winter just because they were bored and had nothing better to do. Relaying trips were made with approx. 250lb. loads of about 10 miles per day on snowshoes. If the going was good they could travel farther and of course they consumed a percentage of the load. Every evening they made camp and slept out on the trail, went back the next morning, and got another load until they had all the stuff in one place. The process was duplicated for each relay until the task was completed in the spring. They shook hands with the man that owned the freight and walked back to Fairbanks.
 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
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the question was "effective" not "efficient"

If someone could hook an ellipse exercise machine up to wheels, that would be even more effective than a bike, because your arms get into the act too!
 

LurchFrinky

Senior member
Nov 12, 2003
303
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Originally posted by: NeoPTLD
Is there anything that can utilize our strong muscles better than a bicycle and is more effective as a transportation tool?

Your question actually has less to do with which type of vehicle is more efficient, and more to do with where you plan on going. The most efficient way to travel on smooth roads without aerodynamic help is an upright road bike. The most effective way to travel off-road will be a mountain bike. If you limit your path to relatively level roads and you use some sort of fairing, then a recumbent is probably a better choice. If you plan on carrying cargo, you will likely need a custom bike frame with storage built in - regardless of whether it is recumbent, road, or a mountain bike.

There seems to be some confusion about recumbent bikes and what they are good for. For starters, there is an incredibly large variety of recumbent and semi-recumbent body styles, and they are not all created equal. Making blanket statements about recumbents just doesn't work. Some misconceptions include:

Recumbent bicycles are more aerodynamic. This is both true and false. It is true that most semi-recumbent seating positions offer a smaller frontal area than an upright, but the shape of an upright rider in a tucked position has been found to have less drag force than the 'bent rider. If any of you know anything about aerodynamics, you know that two of the components of the drag force equation are the "cross-sectional area" (L^2), and the "drag coefficient" (the "CD" that is often quoted) among others. Bents will typically have a smaller area, but a larger CD than an upright. To fix this, bents will often use some sort of fairing to help improve their CD. Fairings are (usually) easier to attach to bents than uprights, and if attached to both types will result in nearly identical CDs for both. At this point, the bent with its smaller area will have the aerodynamic advantage. Comparing a faired bent to an unfaired upright shouldn't even be close. Of course, I have seen some really bad implementations of fairings on bents that actually made things worse.

The recumbent pedaling motion is more/less efficient than in an upright. Neither. The pedaling motion of a bent is the same as an upright, or at least it should be if designed properly. Dr. Danny Too conducted several experiments on the effects of rider positioning on power output and found that the optimal seating angle for a recumbent was as if you rotated an upright rider in a tucked position. Many bents either have too little or too much lean in their seat. Leaning your seat way back will usually increase your aerodynamic efficiency at the cost of power output, which is why many racing bents are like this. Most bents are still hand made by enthusiasts, so much of this research isn't actually utilized by people with extensive scientific or engineering training. The "pulling up" on the pedals mentioned by Peter is actually a function of the pedal/shoe interface. Almost all bicycle racers, upright or bent, use some means of snapping their shoes into special pedals to increase their pedaling efficiency. You don't pull up against your seat though. At the same time you are pulling up on the one pedal, you are pushing down on the other. Since your quads are so much stronger than your hamstrings, you can actually pull up while in the standing position. The biggest advantage of these pedals isn't just being able to pull up, it is the ability to pull/push forward and backward instead of just up and down. The circular motion allows for a more constant flow of power to the rear wheel and allows for higher pedaling rates. Standing up is still an advantage for going up long hills, but it can be designed around. The standing up motion allows you to lock your knee joint temporarily and allow all of your muscles to rest for split second. However, you still have to flex your other leg to get it into the standing position so you can shift your weight. Of course doing this means you cannot use the circular motion described earlier. Bent riders can never do this, so they have to use the circular motion at all times. The problem with most bents is that they are usually geared to high. Because they can push so hard against their seat back (and because they get moving really fast down hills) , they feel more comfortable with a gear range much higher than on a regular upright. When you combine this with the poor design and standard pedals, then going uphill becomes next to impossible.
There are some things worth considering though. For the standard circular pedaling motion, the human body is better at generating torque at lower rpms, but better at generating power at higher rpms. Because professional cyclists are usually concerned with maintaining high speeds, high power, and therefore high rpms, are what they use the most. When climbing hills, however, much of your momentum is lost in between each stroke, and you must therefore accelerate a small amount each time in order to maintain a relatively constant speed. Acceleration is a function of torque, so you will see cyclists much more likely to "stand" in a higher gear than "spin" in a lower gear while climbing hills. This is why standing on uprights is still an advantage for going up hills. Also worth considering is the effect of blood flow. If a bent is designed with the crank center above the seating position, then the blood flow to the legs will decrease, and muscle efficiency will suffer. I have personally felt the tingling in my feet on one particular bike I rode. When going uphill with your legs in front of you, this effect can become much worse.

As someone who has many years of experience with Human Powered Vehicles (HPVs), I have seen some really unique (and downright wackey) attempts at improving human powered propulsion. I can say without a doubt that the number one parameter in making a vehicle fast is the rider. Lance Armstrong on a 1970's Schwinn would smoke the vast majority of HPVs with Joe Blow in the seat. The next most important factor is mechanical efficiency (including seating position). You really shouldn't worry about aerodynamics unless you can go faster than 30 mph unfaired, or unless you plan on going a long way in between stops. If you've got your ducks in a row, then maybe you can travel further than 50 miles in one hour like the record holder at IHPVA.org. Mind you, that isn't a peak speed of 50 mph, that's an average speed of 50 mph - for an entire hour!

Of course if there were only one answer to the "more effective transportation tool" question, then why do we have so many types of cars, trucks, and trains? Each vehicle is designed to perform in a certain way, and this makes some vehicles more effective at some tasks than others. If you don't have a place to park your bike, then your razor scooter may be the better choice. Bents have some drawbacks and advantages that make them more suitable for some tasks than others. Some people just prefer the seating position while others can't stand it. Bents have very poor visibility in automobile traffic and would do poorly as bike messengers in New York City. Because I race HPVs on racetracks, I have a narrow set of parameters to work with, and recumbent style bikes are better suited for my purpose. They are not the best choice for all.
 

Matthias99

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Oct 7, 2003
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Mechanical efficiency is one thing, effectiveness is another.

A direct drive (no chain or gears) design like those from turn of the 20th century is more mechanically efficient as there's no drive train to lose power on, but such setup doesn't give you enough reduction to effectively use force from your muscle.

Originally posted by: grant2
the question was "effective" not "efficient"

If someone could hook an ellipse exercise machine up to wheels, that would be even more effective than a bike, because your arms get into the act too!

While I realize the original question was about "effectiveness" (a poorly defined term if there ever was one), efficiency plays a significant role in the "effectiveness" of a vehicle, IMHO. A vehicle that allows for optimal use (even, say, 50% better power output) of your muscles is not going to be "effective" if it loses 75% of the energy you put into it due to mechanical inefficiency. Bicycles are popular and widely used because they are simple and cheap to design and build, they make good use of your powerful leg muscles, and they turn almost all of the energy you output into effective motive force.
 

lstintxs

Member
Jul 23, 2001
39
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thats just he way it has always been done, it has always been 60hz and that is what people design things on....

Does the statement, "We've always done it that way" ring any bells...?

The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number.

Why was that gauge used?

Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads.

Why did the English build them like that?

Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did "they" use that gauge then?

Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.

Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing?

Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts.

So who built those old rutted roads?

Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England) for their legions. The roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts in the roads?

Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever.

So the next time you are handed a spec and told we have always done it that way and wonder what horse's ass came up with that, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.

Now the twist to the story...

When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site.

The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a Horse's ass.
 

endo1234

Junior Member
Nov 18, 2003
11
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Originally posted by: LurchFrinky


As someone who has many years of experience with Human Powered Vehicles (HPVs), I have seen some really unique (and downright wackey) attempts at improving human powered propulsion. [/i]

Hey check this Human Powered Vehicles (HPVs), I'm sure you've heard of it before, it's called my foot in your ass!

You have only 5 posts and you already remind me of Cliff Cleavin, in every single post! You don't work in the post office do you?


 
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