What is toughest undergraduate major?

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: Darien

Originally posted by: Horus

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: Horus
HISTORY. When you EE majors write 30K+ words in 2 months for essays, come back and talk to me.

Stupidest analogy ever, I could probably manage writing 30k+ words in 2 months (though I would probably hate it) .
Heck I've written two lab reports in the last 3 weeks that together are 60 pages and 16,000 words.

Correction: Thirty Thousand words which require creative thought to come to conclusions. I've heard this type of thought process is difficult for engineers

It probably is. Most of the engineers I know suck at writing.

Most of the engineers I know can write a half-decent paper if you hand them reading material about the subject at hand, none of the arts students I know can write a 30 page lab report the performance characteristics of of a multistage amplifier circuit, let alone propose improvements to the circuits as is required in a lab report.

BTW, design (which is what engineers do) is by definition a creative process. I don't know where you came up with the idea that engineers aren't creative.

I think you're wasting your time. I highly doubt they can see elegance or beauty in a circuit or algorithm. I see some of these things (like DRAM config for example) and just wonder how the hell people were able to come up with it.

diff sense amplifier!! very interesting

I really liked the clocked one. Of course, none of this helped on the final today, but....c'est la vie

i dont understand what makes teh clocked one special...even the non clocked one has the "select" line which turns off the amp when not in use.

 

[troglodytis]

What is toughest undergraduate major?

the one you hate

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: troglodytis

What is toughest undergraduate major?

the one you hate

best answer yet.

Then again, I doubt Liberal Arts is THAT tough even if you hate it

 

[upsciLLion]

I can't believe this is still being discussed. If you'd all just cut to the chase and whip out your pieces, this would be over in a matter of minutes.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: yoda291

I don't think anyone who still thinks the number of words in a paper has any merit towards its difficulty can be credited with making an intelligent decision pertaining this topic.

Winna.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: simms

Originally posted by: Schrodinger

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Originally posted by: Schrodinger
Wow...EE is that much more difficult than a physics major?

Content-wise, probably not. I think it has more to do with the skills expected out of an engineer.

Howso? (I'm not experienced with engineers)

I was talking to my Fluid Mech prof. A main difference between ChemE and just plain Chems is beause we deal with RATES OF REACTIONS a lot more than just chems. Like we have entire courses on Heat and Mass transfer.

As well, Engins DESIGN a lot of things - for example in my 2nd year class we had to design a piping system that was used to pump water to an economizer, which is used for flue gas in the lumber industry. We had to take into account accurate pressures, steam formations to ensure the steam could be used to generate power WITHOUT EVEN A SINGLE DROP ANYWHERE in the pipes, head loss, frictional losses..

These are all things that chems won't do. Designing and fabricating, meeting standards and using "different ways to solve a problem" are all encouraged in Engin.

Yeah...I'm a BME but the first class we take is a ChemE Class and its all about calculating rates and whatnot...muahaha thank god I don't need CBEMS40B where they start doing balances on batch reactors. Muahahahaa...
Well at my school the toughest are BME and EE. BME here is especially supposed to be tough since its a newer major (started 2002 here) and the "word" on the street is they just tried dumbing down their grad courses (sicne the university has an established graduated level program) but the problem in practice that didn't happen and you all get slaughtered. My friend's friend who just grad in ChemE with a straight 4.0 and is making 60+k a year at northrup has a BME minor and she said those were the hardest calsses she has EVER taken... I think pretty much engineering is tough and people can keep making up their own things like "but bla bla bla"

Shutup, we are all engineers so we get to gloat No need for war in the house of engineering.


But in the end I toss the hat to BIO majors at my school who are looking for premed. If you can't maintain a 3.0 in the Bio program they put you on probation. And if you don't do good in a series of bio coures early on they will suggest that you drop the major--->this results in a lot of Social Ecology majors (widely regarded as "bio Lite"). The competition is CRAZY, people jack other's labs so they can do better, and steal your notes so you get screwed...I'm glad I'm an engineer and not Bio

Well...probably till I hit my third year and start all my upper div classes

edit:

Also i have a friend who is a MAE and his brother was a genious and went to Caltech. He was a physics major, and decided to pick up two other majors: math and ICS. Oh, he also picked up a japanese minor...this is in FOUR years by the way. But his friend was also doing Physics and literally was getting ULCERS from the major, so they had to drop and they swithced to math. His friend found it so easy and no work that she encouraged my brothers friend to do it also so he decided to pick it up as another major for fun. And then later he realized he could pass all the ICS classes and picked up a third major- he didn't have to even take the classes. he just took the finals and moved on.
So what does he do now that he graduated? Sit at home and play games all day

 

[Darien]

Holy cow. Ulcers?! I'm glad my program isn't as bad...I guess.

 

[kcthomas]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: EmperorIQ

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: Horus
HISTORY. When you EE majors write 30K+ words in 2 months for essays, come back and talk to me.

Stupidest analogy ever, I could probably manage wtiting 30k+ words in 2 months (though I would probably hate it) .
Heck I've written two lab reports in the last 3 weeks that together are 60 pages and 16,000 words.

I just compiled a spice deck that roughly converts into an 8MB text file.. how's that?
And YES... that's MEGABYTES

All hand-generated?! How many elements do you have in there? I hope you're not just talking about the output files

awesome!

Actually.. I cheated. The layout and schematics were hand generated, but I had the computr convert it into a SPICE deck. I'm producing a microchip for my M.S. degree and let me tell you this, it's a paaaaaaaain in the ass. I'm almost up to 250K transistors. I know it's chump change in the industry but for a STUDENT... it's HARD AS HELL!

jeesh i had to SPICE a circuit that was 500 trans i thought that was a pain in the ass. how long you been workin on that thing?

 

[cbehnken]

Software Development

 

[ucdbiendog]

i put chem eng. a buddy of mine is in that major, and some of the stuff they do is insane, mathwise. EE would get a close second though

 

[DCypher]

I am a Penn State University Astrophysics Major. Trust me, it's very very hard.

 

[Connoisseur]

LOL. I'm a senior Electrical and Computer Engineering student at Rutgers and it's HELL. Try having 3 final projects, 2 programming assignments and 3 finals ALL ON THE SAME DAY. That's just part of my final schedule this semester. And if you ever try to learn Verilog you'll want to jump of the tallest structure you can find. Programming it to both synthesize a logic circuit in one program AND produce a test bench in another program is just insane. For our last homework assignment (in Digital Systems Design 1 due every week) it took me 14 hours straight to find out wtf the assignment was asking for, program it first to produce a valid testbench, and then reprogram it to produce a valid logic circuit. And my programming methodology teacher is on crack. For our first programming assignment, he made us make an SQL engine in C++ (note I said MAKE. We basically MADE a simpler version of mySQL). Pspice is a pain but isn't that bad. So long as you keep track of the connections it's not bad at all. The only person I feel worse for is my friend who's double majoring in ECE and CS and he has to write in Prolog.... but he's a programming psycho so he actually finds this stuff fun.... GOD I hate my major. I wish I was econ. I could've had so much more fun... err... in conclusion, ECE is the worst. Screw all the other majors.

 

[b3b0p]

I have heard and read that Computer Engineering is the hardest. I think the above poster makes it a good case to be top candidate.

 

[Pohemi]

I admit I didn't take the time to read every post on this thread, but...did anyone think about Mechanical Engineering?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Unless you put Biochemistry Molecular and Cellular Biology up there, you're a fool.

I have a MS in chemistry, and I can say that biochemistry, molecular biology, chemistry, and cellular biology are relatively easy, "soft" sciences compared to math, physics, and engineering.

I voted for Electrical Engineering. After that I guess I'd go with Math, Physics, and Chemical Engineering (in no particular order). The EE is one of the most valuable degrees you can get, btw. I recommend that people avoid the Math and Physics degrees, which don't have too much "job getting" value. A nice combination would be EE + Business degree + MBA.

 

[Connoisseur]

I will hand it to MechE's that their course material is definitely difficult. However, based on sheer workload I think EE's take the cake. Furthermore, a MechE friend of mine made a perfect statement regarding the difference between Mech and EE: "The Mech. curriculum has more difficult material than the EE curriculum but has dumber people. So the curve is a lot better." No offense to MechE's (the smart ones), but I've found this statement to be pretty accurate. A lot of smart people join the ECE departments (in our school at least it's the largest department by far) which generally kills the curve. To compensate, the professors give a lot less slack if you're doing less than overwhelming. Also, I believe our curriculum is more uniformly difficult. By this, I mean most of our classes are pretty hard whereas mechE's have a combination of really hard classes and easy classes. To tell you the truth, the first couple of years of ECE weren't that bad at all. They introduced us to analyzing RLC circuits as well as op amps and the like as well as started us off working with PSpice. However, starting my junior year the courses became insane and borderline crazy. My two cents.

::Edit:: Also, I don't agree with WhipperSnapper about getting the EE degree. For all of you thinking of going into EE or are only a year into it, I'm gonna give you guys the best advice you're ever gonna get. There's such a deluge of both local and foreign students going into the engineering dept's (especially EE) that the competitiveness in school and (later on) in the job market is extremely high. DO NOT go into EE or MechE unless you are incredibly smart (I'm not) or are very good at managing your time (doing hw on time, studying for exams on time etc.) and are sure you can get at least a 3.5 gpa. GET OUT. If you're good at mathematics become an Econ major-get at least a 3.8 gpa (which is easy as hell in econ), join a bunch of clubs (to bolster your resume), get an internship and you're on easy street. My best friend is a business major: he's dumb as a brick and whines about having to spend 2 hours a week doing homework... he's getting a job at Deutsche Bank after he graduates for a crapload of money. You just have to market yourself well (i.e. pad your resume). Engineers seldom get this kind of opportunity. I truly and honestly regret not having switched to an econ major when I had the chance cause I would've had a much less stressful college life and had a lot more time to enjoy college.

WHEN YOU'RE SEARCHING FOR YOUR FIRST CAREER JOB, ALL COMPANIES ONLY CARE FOR:
A) YOUR GPA
B) YOUR WORK EXPERIENCE (INTERNSHIPS, COOPS ETC.)
C) YOUR EXTRACURRICULARS

Don't let anyone tell you differently. DO NOT become like me and regret having blown 4 years of your life on this pointless major (ECE). Do something that's fun and/or easy and just LEARN TO MARKET YOURSELF. You'll thank me for it later on. :laugh:

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: richardycc
if you are a bio major, you should change NOW, its a dead end major, we get tons of bio major grads applying as lab tech at my company, and unless you have a ph.d, these people that get a job as a lab tech will most likely retire as a lab tech III. they will always work under someone that has a ph.d. unless you are a slacker that only wants a job to pay the bills and dont want to take any responisblity from your work, bio will get you nowhere. (of course there are exceptions to this)

MUST READ FOR SCIENCE MAJORS AND WANNA-BE SCIENCE MAJORS

I suggest that people avoid biology and life sciences BS and Ph.D. and degrees completely. In fact, avoid science degrees completely unless you have a real good reason for getting one. Ignore all of the hype about how it's the job of the future. The reality is that our nation has a huge oversupply of people with Ph.D.'s in this field. If you really want to be a scientist--do your research of the field ahead of time. Don't be an idiot like me.

Be sure to read:

Contemporary Problems in Science Jobs

http://scijobs.freeshell.org/

The Usenet newsgroup: sci.research.careers

Your best bet is to go to medical school and get an MD. The number of MDs is artificially limited by the number of people allowed to go to medical school, which is why almost every doctor is upper middle class and has status and prestige. If you want to be a science researcher, get an MD-Ph.D. combination. That way you can always work as a doctor.

If you're going to get a Ph.D., might I suggest a solid Ph.D. in either Analtyical Chemistry or Organic Chemistry. (Avoid the less valuable biology degrees, inorganic chemistry, and physical chemistry degrees.) If you really want to do life sciences work, the Ph.D. in Biochemistry is probably your best bet, but I suggest trying to do computational-related biochemistry--that way you might have a chance of working in the computer field when you get out.

Be sure to stop by the science departments at your local universities and spend some time having frank conversation about career options with American postdocs when they are completely out of earshot of their advisors or anyone else and can thus speak candidly. (They're getting $25,000/year even though they have Ph.D.'s because the science Ph.D. job market sucks so badly.) Ask them tough questions about it.


What to advise undergrads in a day and age when the U.S. economy is in decline and will only get worse for the foreseeable future? What to do when the foreign outsourcing of middle class American jobs is only in its mere infancy (it will get worse and worse)?

I like the idea of trying to get multiple bachelors degrees, say a combination engineering + business degree or computers + business degree. The business degree provides some versatility while the technical degree might provide an extra edge and allow you to work in the technical field. For those interested in advanced degrees, the MD is the king of all degrees in terms of economic outcomes, but it's very hard to get in to a U.S. allopathic medical school as a result. After that, consider a combination of engineering/computers + MBA or engineering (Electrical Engineering only--do yourself a favor) + JD (lawyer) (computers + JD isn't worth that much, whereas the EE-JD is the best background for patent law). However, the job market for MBAs and JDs (even in patent law) is not real good, but then again, nothing is today. The nice thing about having the MBA is that it's only a 2 year program to get it and it won't keep you from moving up if an opening arises. (No one's going to say, "We can't promote him, we need someone with a business degree.")

I also suggest trying to graduate with as little student loan debt as possible and paying it off as quickly as possible. Get a part-time job during college if you can. Also, delay having children until all of your loans are gone, until you're certain you're done with your education, and until you have saved up a nice cache of money. You cannot be too careful in today's economy. It's also possible that the job market for your degree field (ie, computer programming) could go up in smoke if all of the work gets sent to India.

 

[Kanalua]

pl sc

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Connoisseur

::Edit:: Also, I don't agree with WhipperSnapper about getting the EE degree. For all of you thinking of going into EE or are only a year into it, I'm gonna give you guys the best advice you're ever gonna get. There's such a deluge of both local and foreign students going into the engineering dept's (especially EE) that the competitiveness in school and (later on) in the job market is extremely high. DO NOT go into EE or MechE unless you are incredibly smart (I'm not) or are very good at managing your time (doing hw on time, studying for exams on time etc.) and are sure you can get at least a 3.5 gpa. GET OUT.

Gosh, maybe it's worse than I thought for EE. I know that EEs are having problems because of the foreign outsourcing thread, but what I was thinking was that a EE combined with some other degree (MBA, JD) might have lots of value. I have read that India has 279,000 engineering majors in the college pipeline right now (or was that expected to graduate per year?), so we'll only see more and more outsourcing in that area. As for the JD-EE, if you read the patent law discussion forums, the JD-EE's are having a tough time now, but it was a red hot field a while ago and it's still the most valuable law degree combination you could get. One benefit of a EE-MBA combination is that even if you don't want to use the EE, you'll be assumed to be much smarter than poly-sci-MBA majors. Of course, you might also be assumed to have fewer people skills. It's a strange world.

 

[Connoisseur]

WhipperSnapper, I'm not as well read on the international job market but I know what I see from a college student's perspective. When engineers have career fairs, they're packed like sardines full of students who'd suck a d**k for an interview (pardon me if I offended anybody). There used to be a day and age where you were highly prized simply by being an ECE and getting a decent (> 3.0GPA ) grade. That day is LONG gone. The field is incredibly competitive. Furthermore, I feel that college shouldn't be all about working your balls off just so you get the chance to work your balls off after you graduate. The only valuable skill college courses teach you is how to be independent and how to learn. The rest of college should be about enjoying your life cause frankly, your college days are only gonna happen once and if you miss it... you're SOL. That's why I highly encourage any prospective students to disregard the adults (parents, teachers etc.). They grew up in a different era where just a degree would ensure a profitable future. Don't fall into the rat race. Pick a fun, easy major (NOT poly sci ), do well in it, make lots and lots of connections (via clubs, organizations, chilling with the friends etc.), get an internships or two, and learn to market the hell out of yourself. Nowadays, this is the only way to enjoy your life AND ensure a solid future. Fortunately, I MADE the time to enjoy myself and spend with my friends but I end up paying for it with my grades and lack of internship experience....not to mention the constant stress. Now, I'm in deep trouble as I'm scrambling to find a job I don't really want. The funny part is I just recently realized that I spent 3 1/2 years struggling through crap even though I could've easily completed another major and STILL had a good chance to get a job at the same or higher pay. Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this post but I feel strongly about the subject. Unfortunately, I'm the first member of my immediate family to attend college in the US so I didn't have anyone to give me advice. Sure, I had guidance counsellors in high school but they're useless.

 

[stevty2889]

I put other, becasuse it all depends on the person, what might be dificult to one person, could be easy for somebody else..

 

[fbrdphreak]

While I agree that there is no "hardest" degree, I'm glad to think most people think EE & CPE are the harder ones. I was hoping that I wasn't getting my ass kicked just 'cuz I'm stupid
<----CPE &amp; EE, Junior

 

[DrPizza]

I'd have to say:
Ceramic Engineering....

Why? Because it includes pretty much your entire list.

 

[FearoftheNight]

at my home school ( univ of rochester) our optics program i believe is 2nd in the world and 1st in the us...now those guys are hardcore

 

[Darien]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
I'd have to say:
Ceramic Engineering....

Why? Because it includes pretty much your entire list.

Wouldn't this just be material science/engineering then?