What is your plan to reduce global poverty?

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totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
81
Craig has such an ass-backwards nanny state view of things (as usual). The only way to reduce poverty is to INCREASE PROSPERITY..and the only system known to increase prosperity for the masses over long time frames is capitalism.

You've got to teach the man to fish. Africa will never get out of their hellhole until they embrace stable government, strong property rights, and sound money. Of course that doesn't jive with the welfare state philosophy..so the lefties here naturally gravitate toward policies that perpetuate and enable poverty rather than eliminating of it.
 

artikk

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2004
4,172
1
71
Originally posted by: rpanic
Less people less poverty.

Poverty is like cancer that is spreading and reproducing faster than healthy cells. The most impoverished countries have populations that are out of control. We should doing more educating impoverished populations and motivate them into being more sustainable. Out of control populations will make any advancements to saving the environment and reducing poverty useless and in the end we will all loose to this vicious cycle.

 

Red Irish

Guest
Mar 6, 2009
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Originally posted by: totalnoob
Craig has such an ass-backwards nanny state view of things (as usual). The only way to reduce poverty is to INCREASE PROSPERITY..and the only system known to increase prosperity for the masses over long time frames is capitalism.

You've got to teach the man to fish. Africa will never get out of their hellhole until they embrace stable government, strong property rights, and sound money. Of course that doesn't jive with the welfare state philosophy..so the lefties here naturally gravitate toward policies that perpetuate and enable poverty rather than eliminating of it.

Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?

No, it does not. That's stupid. Prosperity can be shared, just like deals can benefit both sides, not just one.
 

Red Irish

Guest
Mar 6, 2009
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Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?

No, it does not. That's stupid. Prosperity can be shared, just like deals can benefit both sides, not just one.

If everybody's rich, isn't that a form of communism?
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,554
2
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Global poverty has shrunk from 40% of the world's population to 20% since 1985. That's been the direct result of our outsourcing to India and China lifting their population out of poverty.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?

No, it does not. That's stupid. Prosperity can be shared, just like deals can benefit both sides, not just one.

If everybody's rich, isn't that a form of communism?

Prosperity =/= "evebody's rich".
 

Red Irish

Guest
Mar 6, 2009
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Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?

No, it does not. That's stupid. Prosperity can be shared, just like deals can benefit both sides, not just one.

If everybody's rich, isn't that a form of communism?

Prosperity =/= "evebody's rich".

I see, so instead of poverty, we want to get to a situation were we can speak of the less prosperous?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: totalnoob
Craig has such an ass-backwards nanny state view of things (as usual). The only way to reduce poverty is to INCREASE PROSPERITY..and the only system known to increase prosperity for the masses over long time frames is capitalism.

You've got to teach the man to fish. Africa will never get out of their hellhole until they embrace stable government, strong property rights, and sound money. Of course that doesn't jive with the welfare state philosophy..so the lefties here naturally gravitate toward policies that perpetuate and enable poverty rather than eliminating of it.

To add to this, if prosperity is increased without increasing opportunity, its the dictators who benefit. No opportunity = no reduction in poverty.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: totalnoob
Craig has such an ass-backwards nanny state view of things (as usual). The only way to reduce poverty is to INCREASE PROSPERITY..and the only system known to increase prosperity for the masses over long time frames is capitalism.

You've got to teach the man to fish. Africa will never get out of their hellhole until they embrace stable government, strong property rights, and sound money. Of course that doesn't jive with the welfare state philosophy..so the lefties here naturally gravitate toward policies that perpetuate and enable poverty rather than eliminating of it.

Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?

Prosperity is not static.
 

Red Irish

Guest
Mar 6, 2009
1,605
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0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: totalnoob
Craig has such an ass-backwards nanny state view of things (as usual). The only way to reduce poverty is to INCREASE PROSPERITY..and the only system known to increase prosperity for the masses over long time frames is capitalism.

You've got to teach the man to fish. Africa will never get out of their hellhole until they embrace stable government, strong property rights, and sound money. Of course that doesn't jive with the welfare state philosophy..so the lefties here naturally gravitate toward policies that perpetuate and enable poverty rather than eliminating of it.

Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?

Prosperity is not static.

If you are prosperous, somebody else isn't, that's how capitalism works.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: totalnoob
Craig has such an ass-backwards nanny state view of things (as usual). The only way to reduce poverty is to INCREASE PROSPERITY..and the only system known to increase prosperity for the masses over long time frames is capitalism.

You've got to teach the man to fish. Africa will never get out of their hellhole until they embrace stable government, strong property rights, and sound money. Of course that doesn't jive with the welfare state philosophy..so the lefties here naturally gravitate toward policies that perpetuate and enable poverty rather than eliminating of it.

Prosperity depends on others having less than you, when Africa is rich, who will be poor?

Prosperity is not static.

If you are prosperous, somebody else isn't, that's how capitalism works.

No, it isnt. Prosperity is not, as a general rule, made on the backs of others. In spite of what wealth haters in here think. Sure, Gates made billions by the allocation of work to others, but a fuckload of other people got rich also.

Wealth and prosperity is NOT static. Nor is it equal.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
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wow, did someone just suggest that arms length transactions are 0 sum game?
 

Red Irish

Guest
Mar 6, 2009
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
wow, did someone just suggest that arms length transactions are 0 sum game?

Not quite that drastic, but would you deny that, over the course of history, the "West" has maintained its healthier economic position by ensuring that Africa and the East remained in a relatively inferior position? Would you deny the existence of sweat shops in China? In other words, would you deny that in many instances benefits are the result of exploitation and grossly imbalanced distribution?
 

totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
81
The west doesn't "ensure" Africa is in an inferior position. The place is a jungle full of civil wars and tinpot dictators like Mugabe who pursue hyperinflation. Until the African people develop a stable and civilized economy, they can contribute little more to the world than physical labor in shoe factories..so that's what they contribute. Blaming America for their failures is ridiculous.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Originally posted by: Red Irish
Originally posted by: ElFenix
wow, did someone just suggest that arms length transactions are 0 sum game?

Not quite that drastic, but would you deny that, over the course of history, the "West" has maintained its healthier economic position by ensuring that Africa and the East remained in a relatively inferior position? Would you deny the existence of sweat shops in China? In other words, would you deny that in many instances benefits are the result of exploitation and grossly imbalanced distribution?

Usually, any trade transaction that does not include fraud, force, or coercion is beneficial to both parties. In pakistan, I read that women line up for days for the opportunity to work in their clothing "sweat shops."

As long as people are not forced into sweatshops by violence, or coercion I think they are a good thing. If people choose to work in a sweatshop, it must mean they think that the sweat shop is a good deal, compared to their other choices. I don't assume I know better than the workers in the sweatshop, and I don't believe I should try to deny them the choice.

 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: Craig234
Perhaps the most important issue for humanity, we all but never see any construvtive discussion about it here.

So, let's see who has any good plan.

You can use whatever you want - tough anti-illegal immigrant enforcement, war, new political setups, you pick - but show it will be good for the people of the world.

Sadly, the real point of this thread is to show how bankrupt our political culture is on this issue - how we can bicker over every little bit of garbage, hundreds of posts about two acticvists who entrap a couple of people into helping with with advice on prostitution, somecrazy thing a pundits said, but all we get is 'it's not our problem' on global poverty.

Anyone who just says 'it's not our problem' and isn't concerned with looking for what can be done is IMO amoral at best, and not much of a member of the human race.

Has our culture degraded to that point, that there is no concer as the richest country in the world for the rest of the human race?

I know private charity provided a helpful couple drops in the bucket; if you want to push that, show how it can be increased by orders of magnitude.

Leading anti-poverty people talk about 1% from the advanced nations as making a huge difference. I don't see a problem with that approach.

So, let's see, who has a plan? Only plans are invited, not excuses why to ignore it, not arguments about what our current small foreign aid efforts do.

The last new big thing we did was the Peace Corps - helpful, if modest.

Some say we're on the verge of people becoming more expensive than what they contribute and that this will lead to policies letting many lose their lives to disease, etc.

Other - better IMO - tools include land reform, birth control, and encouragement of the development of local industries.

I work for an international development finance institution with the goal to help its developing member countries reduce poverty and improve the quality of life.

The organization provide loans, technical assistance, grants, advice and knowledge to developing countires. The organization provided over $11 billion in loans/grants and technical assistance in 2008, and in addition provided experts in economic, infrastructure, agriculture, finance, and environment to help member countries with project to improve their countries and reduce poverty.

Yes there is tons of politics here, just like UN, World Bank member countries from the developed countries are more interested in winning bids for those project than actully helping the poor. But the end results is the same, project gets done, infrastructure gets built, developing government gets advice, and poverty level gets reduced.

IMHO, you can b!tch about poverty or how all these organizatin are ineffective or full of politics, but until you actually do something about poverty you have no right criticizing those who actually give an effort. Those of us who are actually doing the work knows the system is not perfect, there are tons of politics, but at the end of the day, if some people got help, we've achieved something.

I would be interested in learning more of your progress. What specific areas do you target and what type of improvements do you see in those areas? Such as, have you seen a decrease in infant and youth mortality, violent crimes, or other statistics that might give a glimpse at a change in their quality of life. Also, how much do you need to invest in an area on average to see a certain level of increase or decrease in key indicators that your organization targets?

Don't get me wrong, I believe that what we are doing right now is not the best way, but I would not advocate removing what assistance we do offer unless we can provide something better.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
In my Father's house there are many mansions.

What is truly yours is what you take with you after a ship wreak.

Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou.



The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
he leadeth me beside the still waters. Rev. 7.17


He restoreth my soul:
he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.


Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.


Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil;
my cup runneth over.


Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

You lost me at "In."
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Sorry if this was already mentioned...but free market principles have lifted more people out of poverty worldwide than any organized efforts, even at the expense of rich countries jobs like in the U.S.. When an exec builds a plant in Mexico or China and employs 10s of thousands, that company is dramatically improving the local economy of that country and its citizens.

So, lets make sure in this deep recession which I expect to last 5+ years more, that countries worldwide don't go back to a protectionist mentality, which would be the quickest way back to poverty for many emerging markets.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
No, there's not.

The myth of 'don't feed the poor, they'll just multiply more and need more' is contradicted by the negative correlation between prosperity and reprodutcion.

The more prosperous a society, the less reproduction it seems to have - a fact which makes gobal poverty efforts all the harder, since most new people are from the poor.

It also makes global poverty efforts all the more urgent, to prevent that problem.

There are many and sometimes conflicting issues. A billion people are underfed, but a third of the world's obeses people are in developing countries (bad good not no food).

On that last point - some in the thread have advocated 'global free trade', but an unintended consequence, as "50 Facts that should change the world" notes:

1. Do you have studies showing a correlation between aid and reproduction to support your distinction? No one said just give unlimited food. Rather, some seemed to suggest that the best thing is to not allow the poor to have food - to keep them chronicall so hungry that it inhibits reproduction. My point was countering that notion.

2. I would. Remember my OP, the reference to the 1% plan from leading anti-poverty people - that's not much of a reduction to your standard of living to do huge benefits.

There are several things here that need to be addressed. One problem is free food for starving populations. Farmers raise food so that they can sell it to support themselves, when there is a food shortage they would normally receive more money from selling their food, which would help make up for less crop yield. When we bring them free food, we are basically acting like a low cost competitor driving them out of business, but we are not actually a business and we are not entering into a long term enterprise to feed them. When we give them free food, we lower the price of food, which in turn lowers the income of the farmers, driving some of them out of farming because they do not make enough money to support themsleves. Now, they have less farmers, now we need to send them more food because food prices are climbing. Our shipments of relief food are actually undercutting the normal price pressures that would increase the amount of food that would be raised in the area. According to the UN Food and Agriculture report from 2008, we could increase the amount of farmland by 50% without touching land that is protected, and most of it is in areas of food scarcity. (1) The United Nations intervenes in food crises's when the price of food rises, the problem is that because we step in when the price of food goes up, farmers in the area don't increase their food output, because there is no point. When prices increase, ships are going to arrive to drive the price back down, so the normal incentive to increase the area's food production is prevented, which also prevents the wealth creation that would accompany this effort, helping to keep them poor For them to switch to cash crops is an obvous and logical choice for them. We don't interfere in cash crop markets to attempt to put a market ceiling in place. (1. FAO. The State of Food and Agriculture 2008. Rep. Rome: Electronic Policy and Support Branch, 2008. Print. ) (I just wrote a paper on this for a class, yay for having sources close at hand.)

Second, you complain that the poor are starving, then you complain that they might eat food with too much sugar?????? That makes me want to slap you. These people are STARVING, and you worry that they might get chips instead of bananas???? I would not consider it to be a problem if we made it too easy to buy a bag of chips in nigeria. Hell, I would consider that to be a wonder, and a great success. We need to get their economies working, and we have to face the fact that once we do, we will probably ship them more twinkies than we do granola bars. They may still be poor, but when we can make them fat with junk food because they can't afford good food, we will be a thousand steps farther than we are today, don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
I think you have to start with a definition of exactly what poverty is. In the USA we might say poverty is making less than a certain dollar amount, while in Africa it might be not having food. For me I would define poverty as not having enough of the basics. Food, Shelter, Clothing, Health care. If you have those you can live a comfortable life. I know many will add on other things but really what it takes to live has not changed in hundreds of years. Everything else we think we need to survive is wants not needs. There is a good book on the subject. The author describes the downfall of America not because of banks or housing crisis but because of the mindset that we use things as a measure of quality of life. If we don't have them we think we are failing at life so we do anything to get them, even make loans we cannot repay.

We may not be addicted to drugs but we are addicted to buying as a means of satisfying a hunger.


 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Originally posted by: Red Irish

Not quite that drastic, but would you deny that, over the course of history, the "West" has maintained its healthier economic position by ensuring that Africa and the East remained in a relatively inferior position? Would you deny the existence of sweat shops in China? In other words, would you deny that in many instances benefits are the result of exploitation and grossly imbalanced distribution?

if someone considers factory work better than farming rocks who am i to tell them otherwise?


of course, one could say the same thing about the coasts and the middle in this country and the centuries old mercantile relation between them. of course, mercantile relations were often backed by laws (taxes) that forced the transaction one way or another. last i checked, the chinese .gov wasn't under the influence of any other .gov.
 
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