What is your plan to reduce global poverty?

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Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Deeko
I don't really care about global poverty, its not my problem. I guess that makes me amoral and not much of a member of the human race. Not like I care what you think, either.

Nobody trots out their ass for public view that doesn't care. Nobody takes a shit in public who isn't seeking attention. Look at me you asshole, I don't care and I'm so hurt that people don't care about me that I want you to know I don't care about you.

DO YOU FUCKING HEAR ME, I DON'T CARE

Was there a purpose to this gibberish? I was directly responding to something in the OP.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
In my Father's house there are many mansions.

What is truly yours is what you take with you after a ship wreak.

Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou.



The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
he leadeth me beside the still waters. Rev. 7.17


He restoreth my soul:
he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.


Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.


Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil;
my cup runneth over.


Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Well we could stop throwing so much damn money at the impoverished because it isn't working. Everything points to less being more in that case. To be honest though I care less about someone starving in some 3rd world country than I do someone who lives on the bench down the street.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: cubeless
the last big thing we did was buy tons of shit from the asian countries which lifted more people out of poverty than any other program...

...While putting many Americans into poverty...

Define poverty. The average living conditions in say Iraq, are worse than ANY poor neighborhood I have seen in America, and living conditions in some African tribes are worse still. If you were to compare a poor American to a poor african, the American would look like Bill Gates. The problem with comparing poverty is that poverty is relative to the countries wealth, not a standard across the board. What Zephyrprime said is dead on, "give a man a fish and he eats for a day. teach him to fish and he can feed himself for life". You have to look at the root cause of the problem, so in Africa what is the problem? Illiteracy? Conditions not good for growing food? Disease? Lack of...anything? HOw is giving them food going to help? Yea they're fed today, what about tomorrow, next week, next year? What Ronstang said is correct, you either change their way of life, and they move to somewhere they can grow food, or produce something to export, or they die, you can only bandage a wound for so long, why do you think conditions haven't improved? BEcause nothing has changed.

Bingo.

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Throw the people of the third world into factories so they can make things for us? I think we've already been doing that for a while now... is it working?

Absolutely. Ive seen it firsthand.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
This is a very complex problem, which all too often people try to solve through simple solutions.

Compare a broken civilization to an engine. Poor societies are not broken engines which just need one part fixed they are engines which do not yet exist, or are very very poor engines which require an almost complete rebuild. Even worse, unlike engines, societies are all different, it would be like building an engine in which chemistry does not work like it does in other engines. What works for us, probably will not work for them. Even worse still, when we do try to fix/build their engine, we very often end up making it worse.

Also, one very important thing for the OP to consider: I know he has referred to the book "Shock Doctrine," and has made several references to economists from the Milton Friedman school who attempted to build free market utopias. Those economists thought they had a plan, they thought they would make the lives of those people better with their system.

Normally I am conservative, but when it comes to developing nations, I am even more conservative. There is a good reason for this, what I see as liberal or progressive in this area usually comes in the form of "We are smart, we can fix this for them." Almost always, the system that these "poor" "stupid" "backwards" use in their daily lives are there for a reason. When we transplant our own solutions and take out their solutions we often learn that we were the ones with the wrong answer, and they suffer. What makes it worse is that due to their lack of resources their suffering often means death.

For example, when we were trying to help the "poor" "savages" of (I think new guinea we sent our best farming experts to show them the "proper" irrigation techniques because their methods were inefficient and "stupid." It turns out their "stupid" techniques were very important, because they protected the land, our techniques caused entire fields to wash away. (I am still trying to find my source on this, but I have several books, and only a small time before I need to return to work)

Instructive reading for those who care:
Guns Germs and Steel, Jared Diamond (how societies got where they are today)
The End of Poverty, Jeffrey D. Sachs (what the problem is, how big it is, and what the world bank/IMF thinks we need to do)
The White Man's Burden, William Easterly (what we have been doing, and how we have been screwing it up, and how some of it is our fault.)

I will post more tonight when I have time, but I must re-iterate too many people think about this like it we just need to fix one thing and everything will be better. It is not like that, we don't have to repair an engine, a whole new one needs to be built, and when we build it, a lot of things will not work there that work here.



 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
It isnt our job to reduce "global poverty" OP.

Are you one of those bleeding-hearts that also wish for things like world peace?


Oh wait, yes you are.
 

rpanic

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2006
1,896
7
81
Less people less poverty.

Poverty is like cancer that is spreading and reproducing faster than healthy cells. The most impoverished countries have populations that are out of control. We should doing more educating impoverished populations and motivate them into being more sustainable. Out of control populations will make any advancements to saving the environment and reducing poverty useless and in the end we will all loose to this vicious cycle.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,676
43,930
136
If we keep sending them food where is the incentive for others to farm and feed their neighbours?
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Craig234
Anyone who just says 'it's not our problem' and isn't concerned with looking for what can be done is IMO amoral at best, and not much of a member of the human race.

perched pretty high up there on that horse aren't you?

The third world very likely would be a better place if more people did not care. All too often we find a problem, diagnose a simple cure, and then throw money at it and ignore that our "cure" causes more harm then good. We, as a society know so much less about their situation then they do. But time and time again we insist that we must be smarter than them, and we push our plans onto their world, destroying what did work, and leaving something that does not work.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Did anyone notice my Kiva.org link?

I don't see how that's not a brilliant idea for the global poverty problem, at least in the third world.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
Originally posted by: OCguy
It isnt our job to reduce "global poverty" OP.

Are you one of those bleeding-hearts that also wish for things like world peace?


Oh wait, yes you are.

i'm an evil conservative, and i disagree... i think that we should help others when we can... but what the help is is the article of debate...

to assist a village in learning how to get clean water and handle it's sewage and farm more efficiently is where you start... once they can eat, you start on education... you start with the basics...

the problem is that you are dealing with people and often someone steals the well pump...

going in expecting to have condo's and nike's for all is stupid and bound to fail...
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Specifically on the continent of Africa we need to stop sending money and tons of food which usually end up in the wrong hands and do nothing to truly help them in the long run.

We need to send friggen John Deer over there along with a few of our best Agriculture people. Africa has some of the best farmland in the world but their farming tech is generations behind. Help them irrigate the land, get em better seeds, teach them about the latest and greatest techniques and help em out with some equipment. We would actually see a return on that investment rather than the current corrupted process of foreign aid. Hungry people tend to be rather angry and violent. Helping them improve their farmland would create jobs, wealth, trade and above all full stomachs.


As far as poverty in general, thats a tougher one. We would have to virtually kill the agriculture industry because it all goes back to food. We obviously can't ensure everyone in the world has a middle class salary but we could potentially make sure the vast majority of the world has decent food supplies. I don't know how to Do that without killing the price of food commodities and most nations, including the US, will never go for that. Like it or not, the government (all of them) does put a value on human life and its not that high. Hell, we do too. I could take the funding for the new health care reform and save 1000 times as many lives on a yearly basis but we would have to do without our "free". We don't care about those other people one bit. I would bet that a properly ran program could damn near wipe out world hunger for the cost of what we pay on Medicare/Medicaid or SSI or DOD. I would love to see someone run on that position to see just how bad they get slaughtered. We only care about us which is why I find it rather ironic when some (definitely not all, but most) try to take the moral high road in debates around here. Everyone deserves this or that because its the right thing to do but at the same time couldn't give half a shit about thousands of kids that will starve tonight.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Giving something without providing them the means to sustain their lives is pointless and useless, and that's exactly what most aid is. The "1% from developed nations" is typical idiot liberal drivel. Taking money from those who produce and handing it to those that don't is not going to solve any problem - ever.

Free global trade is the best thing in terms of fighting global poverty.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Imperialism - but they kicked out teh evil white man. The countries they stayed in prospered.
Globalization - but they put up tariffs and call for "fair trade"
Democracy - but they vote in Chavez

I think it's time we try Benevolent Globo-Imperialized Dictatorship.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Did anyone notice my Kiva.org link?

I don't see how that's not a brilliant idea for the global poverty problem, at least in the third world.
I did, I joined the AT Kiva team last week.
Taking money from those who produce and handing it to those that don't is not going to solve any problem - ever.
Again, tell that to those who are going to DIE without that food. Teaching a man to fish is a great thing but if he's on his deathbed it would be helpful first if you gave him a fish so that he actually has the energy to use your lesson.

Free global trade is the best thing in terms of fighting global poverty.
Some countries in Africa are so lacking in laws that many residents gain nothing from this. Case in point Somalia, it is the least regulated of all the African nations. How's that working out for it? Free-market utopia there.

 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Again, tell that to those who are going to DIE without that food. Teaching a man to fish is a great thing but if he's on his deathbed it would be helpful first if you gave him a fish so that he actually has the energy to use your lesson.

Point is that we HAVE been giving them food, and applying bandages but it is NOT going to change unless their way of life becomes one that produces something either to take of themselves, or to enter the economic market place, and no amount of feel good charities are ever going to change that.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Giving something without providing them the means to sustain their lives is pointless and useless, and that's exactly what most aid is. The "1% from developed nations" is typical idiot liberal drivel. Taking money from those who produce and handing it to those that don't is not going to solve any problem - ever.

Free global trade is the best thing in terms of fighting global poverty.

But unfortunately that isnt going to happen in our lifetime.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Originally posted by: tangent1138
Originally posted by: totalnoob
Abolish all forms of socialism.

Why would you want to abolish police, firefighters, and the army? We kinda need those things.

those aren't the means of production

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
The fact that Craig is typing on a computer from the comfort of his home right now rather than helping build irrigation for African farmers means he isn't really interested in doing anything. He's all talk, he wants other people to do the actual work.
 
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