What makes Sandy Bridge so good?

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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
Yes but i'm talking Nelahem vs SB not lynnfield since Anand doesn't have a 960 in the list I had to choose the 975 cause it was closet in default clock speed to the 2600k.

in canadian pricing the 2600k is $330 and the 960 is $310! so my point still stands its not a 20-30% improvement across the board at all, if that were true I would have dumped my system for a SB build.

Yea but that wasn't true when the 2600K first came out. Plus, I think the price went up a bit on the 2600K after Bulldozer. The demand must have spiked.

You also had to pay for the tri-channel memory, and the more expensive board.

Don't need to compare to 960. There's the 965. Still 15-20% gain. You overclocked the 920, the 2600K would even OC better.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,031
0
71
Conroe/Penryn:
Pro's: Massive IPC increase and still highly clockable compared to competition
Cons: You have to choose whether you want dual core or quad core performance (both from price, power consumption, and absolute performance in games)
Cons: Need massive amount of cache ($$) as a band-aid to off die memory controller

Nehalem/Lynnfield:
Pro's: Another big IPC jump, similary clocks to Core 2 but more overclocking headroom, moving memory controller on board was a good idea
Pro's: Finally an affordable quad core, and turbo mode that gives it single threaded performance of a dual

.....

Moving BCLK generator to CPU caused drama, but was likely because of the massive overclocking headroom Intel knew about. Unlocked CPUs make it so easy to overclock everyone on tech forums think they are 1337

........

I wonder things like: how did Intel get clocks to scale so high? Was that their intent or a side effect?

Why did Intel decide to make fatter cores rather than more cores? Was that solely because of hyper threading? Or better margins?

Just a point regarding the Core2's and gaming. Absolute performance for quads in gaming was not really what the market was for at the time. Multi threading games at the release of the q6600, for example, was pretty poor in terms of performance gain it gave. Going dual over quad was the recommendation if gameing was all a person cared about.

As to power on those quads, it as a bit of a joke as IIRC the q6600 was more of two e6600 in one package than being designed as a quad from the start. I coule be wrong, but at that point, the development for quads were not as far advanced as the step from Pentium 4's was to the Pentium 4 D series.

As to large cache on the Cores, that was the "in" thing at the time. The later revision of the Core 2's had a larger than expected cache only because at the time AMD had moved it's memory controller onto the CPU and was getting a lot better performance.

At the time, if you had memory hungry applications, AMD was a better choice for some for this reason alone. Part of the reason I think the server range from AMD at the time was a better choice.

moving on.

Nehalem/Lynnfield memory controller onboard was more of a catch up than a "good idea". It was expected, not anything else as I recall.

Affordable quads depends on how you count it. The Q6600 was considered the first affordable quad at under $300. From intel anyway.

As to turbo, I think that was more of an idea in the same way hyperthreading was an idea to address a problem. While hyperthreading addressed the long pipelines intel was using at the time, turbo addressed the thermal headroom issue when running light tasks.

Now while I like turbo (gives access to something otherwise lost), hyperthreading can take a long walk off a short pier. It is/was a bandaid to a mistake in it's design approach of the time (long pipelines to allow for massivly high clock speeds). But it is still around for one reason or another (ie: marketing purposes mostly in my book). Sure some people find it useful, but without the need of it as a bandaid, those people would not be a enough group for intel to develop the tech normally.

Core 2 did away with most of the needs of it, (just like large cache sides did when the memory controller was moved on die), but that IIRC was resigned from the ground up based on the P3 and powering down unused cache (a feature from the mobile development arm of Intel). The P4 was just a dead end development and was cut loose.

As to the on chip BLK, that was ment to be a design issue to allow for tigher timings inside the cpu, which helped with getting better performance. The unlocked cpus were not because of the headroom on offer, but Intel knowing that some of their customers want to push the hardware. This then gave intel a excuse to charge more for re-enabling a feature that otherwise they were turning off.

The issue at the time was that FSB overclocking was the only option as Intel had long ago removed clock adjustments on the grounds of people re-badging slow cpus as faster ones. As mentioned at the time, taking from one hand to give with the other is not generally something worth being thankful for.

As to the overclocking head room, that is most likly not a side effect of the design. It is needed if you are going to have a high turbo mode (worth mentioning) and still have a stable cpu.

As to faster cores vs more of them, that is generally well known that Intel take the approach that most software is still single threaded. As such, it benifits more from faster cores than more of them. AMD has taken the other path as going forward it is cores over speed (well, we are expecting that anyway) and that more cores is what businesses want (more money in it on a per chip basis).

in short, it is in intel's favour for software code to not develope beyond single threaded applications and for software bloat to occur.

Intel is no shining white knight, they just have a good collection of spin doctors and similar to make the less liked features/habbits be forgotten.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,031
0
71
Anything multi threaded Intel won against the AMD64.


Multi threaded or just straight number crunching, yes, but give it some code that needed decisions made (ie: gaming, most programs, ect) and the P4's ground to a halt / died in terms of performance.

Not a good feature for most users.

To me that is like saying a green HDD is the best drive as it is cool, has high read speeds and is cheap. In practive, they make extra crap OS / general use drives due to large seek times.

I would nearly put the P4's and green HDD in the same basket. Both had/have their places, but it is not the "everyday" gear you really want.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
4,762
1,161
136
Yea but that wasn't true when the 2600K first came out. Plus, I think the price went up a bit on the 2600K after Bulldozer. The demand must have spiked.

You also had to pay for the tri-channel memory, and the more expensive board.

Don't need to compare to 960. There's the 965. Still 15-20% gain. You overclocked the 920, the 2600K would even OC better.

What wasn't true ??

The canadian price for the 2600k chip has changed since launch!

And yes tripple channel memory cost me $40-$50 more but I also got more memory out of it!

Now the gain is 15-20% lower than your original 20-30% is still isn't across the board on all applications which was what I stated originally. Which is the reason quite a few of us have decided to stick with our rigs. A SB rig for me would only be a power reduction and a 10% IPC boost not worth a rebuild for me. The only thing that would having me thinking twice would be the overclocking headroom.

Also I didn't mention overclocking in my previous post because its obvious to anyone on this forum that SB overclocks better than Nehalem.

But we are starting to get slightly off topic this isn't a Bloomfield vs SB thread its obvious which one is newer and better. For me personally I prefer much larger jumps in performance before I upgrade platforms. And its the reason I went from 939 opteron 170 to i7 920, which is also the same reason i'm skipping the current mid range SB.
 
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dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,271
917
136
As to power on those quads, it as a bit of a joke as IIRC the q6600 was more of two e6600 in one package than being designed as a quad from the start.

Intel is no shining white knight, they just have a good collection of spin doctors and similar to make the less liked features/habbits be forgotten.

Just had to point out that "native quad core" is nothing but pure marketing FUD.

Also:

As to the on chip BLK, that was ment to be a design issue to allow for tigher timings inside the cpu, which helped with getting better performance

Eh?
 

386DX

Member
Feb 11, 2010
197
0
0
As to power on those quads, it as a bit of a joke as IIRC the q6600 was more of two e6600 in one package than being designed as a quad from the start. I coule be wrong, but at that point, the development for quads were not as far advanced as the step from Pentium 4's was to the Pentium 4 D series.

Compared to AMD's approach of bundling Two Dual-core FX CPU and a dual socket motherboard together and calling it a Quad FX? I think Intel got the last laugh there.
 

greenhawk

Platinum Member
Feb 23, 2011
2,031
0
71
Compared to AMD's approach of bundling Two Dual-core FX CPU and a dual socket motherboard together and calling it a Quad FX? I think Intel got the last laugh there.


true, but I would hardly call that setup "common" or for the masses. IIRC each cpu for that was inline with server grade gear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Quad_FX_platform

looks like the "recommended" price was $1000USD for cpus and motherboard. no were near affordable and personally, not something worth talking about outside of "who was first" or "I've more money that scents - what to by".

edit: I should add, I had pretty much forgotten about that setup as I remember reading it and going "yer, right, ripoff" and so forgot about it

edit2: Though thinking of that, it reminds me of what intel did in a press release for the Pentium 4D. It showed a room of reporters a "dual core" pentium, did some bentch marks, showed windows reporting two cores, then had a security guard (?) pick it up and walk out with it before anyone could have a closer look at it. That was just a bad joke I thought. After that "dual core" anoucement, I find anything anyone else did rather fair game.
 
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Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
To understand Intel's IPC dominance, you need to go back to Pentium III days.

P3 led to Pentium M, which then led to the Core Duo. IIRC, Core Duo pretty much is two Pentium Ms on the same die. Then you have Core 2 Duo, and endgame for AMD's lengthy IPC dominance.

And yes, IIRC Core 2 Quads were essentially two C2D dies on the same silicon with an HT bus between the two. Whatever the case, it worked, and damn well.
 

alyarb

Platinum Member
Jan 25, 2009
2,444
0
76
I agree with the statement minus the first part do you really consider 10% a big jump?

IPC for a given power level is probably the single greatest design challenge for CPU architects. That intel has steadily increased IPC while decreasing TDP in a post-Nehalem world is impressive. After the memory and PCIe hubs, what is left to integrate? A 4GB eDRAM? We are well beyond the limiting point of aerial wastefulness of bringing external interfaces nearer to the execution core. Haswell for instance will assume a quasi-SoC philosophy in the mainstream-mobile space and has a fully-integrated southbridge, but that is for decreasing costs, not increasing IPC. Integrating video+PCIe to Lynnfield and SB was for reducing costs as well. After the northbridge, there are simply no more free lunches out there, and IPC is the most costly lunch in the industry BY FAR. Intel can rely on their uber manufacturing for pretty much everything from integration to power efficiency, but IPC is the culmination of the fundamentals of CPU design, and has absolutely nothing to do with how superbly the CPU is built. It is truly rolling up the sleeves type shit, and is the basis of the whole tick-tock thing. They do a node, then they look at IPC, then they do a node. Breaking down and improving their already unbeatable architecture every year just because someone thinks 10% isn't much would drive anyone insane.

The challenge to increase IPC is now greater than it has ever been because no more devices will be integrated any time soon, so a CPU must do more and more per clock with a stagnating amount of on-die resources, and we will soon learn from SNB-E that the "more" you get from more cache tends to taper off as well. Look how IPC growth has stagnated for AMD since the integration of the AMD northbridge. Intel is standing up against this stagnation very well, and +10% IPC per arch will be even more precious as the years go on. My money says it'll dry up soon. Haswell's focus will be on power, new instructions, and of course further peripheral integration. At least at this time I'm not finding anything about IPC in Haswell.
 
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videopho

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2005
4,185
29
91
1. $200 for a 2500K is a steal
2. Mobos are cheap
3. Idle power is non-existant - 5W
4. Load power is jaw-dropping low
5. OC headroom is immense
6. Superb all around CPU performance, especially in games
7. HD3000 beats the shit out of AM2/3 IGPs
8. Quicksync
9. No hype surrounding it, no speculation due to official previews, it just simply delivered.

1) I paid $149 at MC so not sure "steal" is still the right word.
Add on:
10) It makes my 1TB HDD reads almost as fast as SSD, thanks to its SRT/SSD caching speed demon.
11) Gives me integrated graphic, good enough for 1080p and encoding video capability even beats the gtx580.
 

skipsneeky2

Diamond Member
May 21, 2011
5,035
1
71
Selling off my i7 950 and going 2500k enabled me to build for once a quiet cool pc that made basically little to no noise.
Price i sold my old stuff for and the cost for new made it worthwhile.

No more loud ass antec 900 to keep my temps where i want them now a cool quiet budget case can keep them lower then ever before thanks to sandys incredible power management and power consumption.
 

ydnas7

Member
Jun 13, 2010
160
0
0
SB was a radical departure from nehalem, it just didn't seek to look different look different.
Westmere was the last of the P6 species
Sandybridge is the first of new generation

there are changes in Westmere to Nehalem that are more radical than Llanos to Bulldozer.

the design team for Sandybridge never followed Intel's P4 quest for frequency, they didn't follow AMD quest for cores, Intel's Sandybridge team just wanted a better chip.
 
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Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
4,762
1,161
136
Selling off my i7 950 and going 2500k enabled me to build for once a quiet cool pc that made basically little to no noise.
Price i sold my old stuff for and the cost for new made it worthwhile.

No more loud ass antec 900 to keep my temps where i want them now a cool quiet budget case can keep them lower then ever before thanks to sandys incredible power management and power consumption.

I bet you my current rig is just as quiet as your 2500k rig.

It all comes down to how you build.

I have a 6 knob fan controller and all my case fans are high quality only S-flex's!

And i'm using a $90 Cooler Master case.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
4,762
1,161
136
IPC for a given power level is probably the single greatest design challenge for CPU architects. That intel has steadily increased IPC while decreasing TDP in a post-Nehalem world is impressive. After the memory and PCIe hubs, what is left to integrate? A 4GB eDRAM? We are well beyond the limiting point of aerial wastefulness of bringing external interfaces nearer to the execution core. Haswell for instance will assume a quasi-SoC philosophy in the mainstream-mobile space and has a fully-integrated southbridge, but that is for decreasing costs, not increasing IPC. Integrating video+PCIe to Lynnfield and SB was for reducing costs as well. After the northbridge, there are simply no more free lunches out there, and IPC is the most costly lunch in the industry BY FAR. Intel can rely on their uber manufacturing for pretty much everything from integration to power efficiency, but IPC is the culmination of the fundamentals of CPU design, and has absolutely nothing to do with how superbly the CPU is built. It is truly rolling up the sleeves type shit, and is the basis of the whole tick-tock thing. They do a node, then they look at IPC, then they do a node. Breaking down and improving their already unbeatable architecture every year just because someone thinks 10% isn't much would drive anyone insane.

The challenge to increase IPC is now greater than it has ever been because no more devices will be integrated any time soon, so a CPU must do more and more per clock with a stagnating amount of on-die resources, and we will soon learn from SNB-E that the "more" you get from more cache tends to taper off as well. Look how IPC growth has stagnated for AMD since the integration of the AMD northbridge. Intel is standing up against this stagnation very well, and +10% IPC per arch will be even more precious as the years go on. My money says it'll dry up soon. Haswell's focus will be on power, new instructions, and of course further peripheral integration. At least at this time I'm not finding anything about IPC in Haswell.

Some very good points their sir.

good post!
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
0


I just OCed it, for whatever reason it is now up to 3" longer

Wife thinks I'm using pumps, I tell her it's just Sandy Bridge.

That's what makes it so good.

 
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