What new Digital channels are you enjoying?

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig


This is completely opposite of the experience of a lot of people.

Here in Vancouver there are people pulling in the Seattle DTV stations from 160 miles+ away, and are getting much better reception now that the analog is gone. Same with southern Ontario and all the NY stations.

BS. You are not going to get a signal, much less a DTV signal from 160 miles away unless both the sender and receiver have 100% line of sight and are on a mountain tops above all the noise, even then it would require extremely tuned systems. There isn't enough power in the transmission signal to go that far to cover atmospheric loss.

There's an entire forum dedicated to it

A lot of people there are pulling in hdtv from 160 miles away.

They are full of it unless they have spent serious cash on towers, antennas, and amplifiers, even then it is unlikely. The physics don't lie. The power output vs the distance makes it near impossible without serious work.

There is significant work going on in that forum to optimize antennas, and plans for the do it yourselfer. You can spend $50-75 on materials and get yourself a pretty awesome antenna which absolutely will do what they say. There is some dependence on location (I'm in the middle of some concrete towers so my reception is shit, but a nice southern exposure will do fine here), but yes, many people in Vancouver get the Seattle stations. Google maps says it's 224 km, so that's 140 miles.

They aren't getting the station in Seattle from the main transmitter, it is a translator.
The transmitters used in DTV at the power outputs they use are not capable of reaching that far unless you set up an antenna for that specific station and tune it very well. Distance with a decent home set up including a very good antenna about 30 feet up with coax to one receiver is about 80 miles.

No way are they getting 100+ miles with $50 in parts.


look at coverage maps.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=...l%3dking-dt%26type%3dD

Anything in purple is tropospheric . That means you need extra equipment, it has to be the right time of day, right weather conditions, and a bit of luck to get signals at those areas.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: shortylickens

This is gonna make me sound like an ass, but I have to speak up.

I was in the Navy for 9 years. I was an Electronics Technician. I only worked on Comm systems.
All antennas do NOT amplify signals. In fact because they are metal conductors they actually lose a tiny little bit of signal strength as they convert RF to line current and funnel it down to the reciever. You are correct about the ability of a pre-amp to increase noise, but the purpose of all recievers is to take whatever RF they can find and turn it into IF and then AF. Theres no promise your final intelligence would be full of static just because you amplified the RF, even with amplitude modulation. Amplifiers can be useful in all situations so long as your input to the reciever isnt too high, and most recievers (even cheap commercial ones) can actually handle quite a bit more power than the minimum they need just to get an intelligence out of the signal.

Antenna research and development thread

Gain Figures For Similar Large-Sized UHF Antennas

Channel 4228 4228HD PR-8800 DB-8 DBGH M-8

14 10.00 13.15 12.50 11.00 14.34 14.93
19 12.00 13.75 13.70 12.00 17.17 15.63^
27 14.00 13.85 14.50 13.50 17.83 16.40^
35 15.50 13.05 14.40 14.20 18.26 16.77^
43 15.70 13.25 12.00 15.00 16.53 17.07^
52 15.00 13.85 10.50 16.00 8.92* 17.25
60 14.00 13.85 10.00 16.60 NA 16.07

17 dBi of gain isn't amplification?

With hdtv the killer usually isn't weak signal, it's poor signal to noise. There is generally some noise floor which you have to use your antenna to amplify your signal above in order to get a decent S/N ratio (actually you can receive ATSC signals with a S/N of ~1 if you have some good filters). An inline preamp will boost signal, but it will also boost any noise that comes in and will not improve signal to noise at all at that point. Where it becomes useful is when you have splitters and long lines of cable AFTER the preamp that would normally add a significant amount of noise to a weak signal. By boosting the signal and the noise, any noise added later is lessened in effect. This is why the preamp always goes as close to the antenna as possible.

channel master is saying that the 4228 is only going to reach out to 60 miles. Did you accidently put a 1 infront of it?

 

[silverpig]

Geez

Aldergrove bc 276 and fraser hwy:

cm 4228 and samsumg tuner built into tv

cbc dt 100%
ctv dt 100%
kvos dt 100%
shop nbc 100%
24-1,2,3,4 50-60%
fox 13-1 50-60%

time for a rotator and a preamp. tired of going up and down the ladder

i get fox and cw Analogue for seattle while pointing at seymour fuzzy though

cant wait for the new parts

East Abbotsford, top of ridge facing North.
CM4221HD to peak of roof on a 6' pole.
Wired direct to a Viewsonic N3735W LCD TV.

Update since rotating my antenna. These results from aiming the antenna at Seymour and again at the SeaTac area.

2.1 58.1 CBUT-DT CBC Vancouver, BC
4.1 38.1 KOMO-DT ABC Seattle, WA
5.1 48.1 KING-DT NBC-HD Seattle, WA
5.2 48.2 KING-DT NBC-SD Seattle, WA
7.1 39.1 KIRO-DT CBS-HD Seattle, WA
7.2 39.2 KIRO-DT CBS-SD Seattle, WA
8.1 22.2 CHAN-DT GLOBAL Vancouver, BC
12.1 35.1 KVOS-DT IND Bellingham, WA
16.1 31.1 KONG-DT IND-HD Everett, WA
16.2 31.2 KONG-DT IND-SD Everett, WA
32.1 33.1 CIVT-DT CTV Vancouver, BC

All channels come in clear.
Never thought I'd get this many channels with my minimal setup.
I think I'll invest in a 2nd antenna now that I know what's available in my area.

Hi there. I have question. What is best for reception of Seattle stations from Surrey BC? I have FOX on chanel 13 prety good. And on some days digital chanels

9-1
9-2
9-3
11-1
13-1
13-2
20-1
20-2
20-3
20-4
20-5

But most of the time nothing. I was looking in stores, but TV antennas and other stuff does'nt exist. Is anybody around who is reciving from Seatle digital signal without drop outs?

Antenna i build my self. It is combinatoin of 4 bay and yagi antenna, hard to describe.

DBN - I'm using an amplified 4228 and like Bpag, I get Fox and TBN (a
religious channel) quite reliably from lower Lonsdale. I think
if you have a good line of sight south, you will get
KVOS-DT and KBCB-DT (shopping channel) and probably
Fox (KBCQ-DT) with its weather sub-channel and TBN (KTBW-DT)
with 5 subchannels (if you like religious programming). Unlike
bpag, I can also usually get KIRO-DT with its retro-network
subchannel, and I can get KONG-analogue. I also get
crystal clear reception of CITY-TV analogue and CHEK-TV
analogue from their transmitters on Salt Spring Island with
the 4228.

I purchased my CM-4228 from 4DTV as Stampeder recommends,
and found him extremely knowledgeable and helpful - as
others have already posted. I also suggest using
two antennas - one small amplified two-bay CM 4220
for the local channels on Mt Seymour -
CBC-DT, CTV-DT, Global-DT, A-Channel analogue, M-Channel
analogue, and SRC-French analogue and the CM-4228
for the more southerly broadcasters
(I also use an electronic A-B switch with remote to switch
between the two antennas, or you could use a
or a rotor). I get 100% reliable reception of 10 stations (including
the two Bellingham stations), and relatively reliable
reception of FOX, KIRO, and TBN - for a total of another
9 - or 19 in all - although the 5 religious channels aren't my cup of tea,
unless they are doing a historical or archeological broadcast.

I suspect you have higher elevation in Edgemont than I do,
and probably should get all the above stations. I can almost
get a lock on Kong-DT, and suspect it will be viewable after
the June 12 cutoff, since I can get the current analogue
station routinely. I also think that KING-DT may be viewable,
with it sports subchannel after the Digital cutoff date
on June 12. I'd be interested in your reception results once
you've installed your antenna.

Also, it really isn't that hard to pick up HDTV OTA:

ey guys from vancouver area, i had a question about reception downtown. i am on 10th floor of a highrise downtown, facing southwest, on the complete opposite side of the building from which it faces the seymour towers. i don't really have line of site to anything. however, i am directly across the street from BC Place, and at about the same level as it's big fluffy white roof.

Amazingly, I can pull in the canadian hd stations, cbc, global, ctv, and kvos-dt, with just a coax cable hanging out my window along the outside of the condo.

If you want to search the thread yourself:

It depends on where in Langley you are. Use the Search This Thread tool to the upper right beside Thread Tools and try different search terms like "Langley", "Cloverdale", "Aldergrove" etc. and you can compare. There are several people in South Surrey also getting SeaTac stations.

I just searched manually through a few threads. Results vary of course, but people all over Vancouver can pick up Seattle stations. You can call them all liars if you want, but really, what's the point? It takes a combination of a good antenna, a preamp, and mostly some good southern exposure to do it, but it certainly is possible for under $100. A good preamp is $50, and the antenna is certainly less than $50 worth of copper tube, metal rod, and PVC pipe.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: silverpig

I just searched manually through a few threads. Results vary of course, but people all over Vancouver can pick up Seattle stations. You can call them all liars if you want, but really, what's the point? It takes a combination of a good antenna, a preamp, and mostly some good southern exposure to do it, but it certainly is possible for under $100. A good preamp is $50, and the antenna is certainly less than $50 worth of copper tube, metal rod, and PVC pipe.

The point is it is misleading to tell people they can get stations 160 miles away with under $100 in parts. It isn't going to happen. If people are seeing stations from Seattle in Vancouver then they are viewing the output from translators not the main tower as its too far away without expensive equipment and a lot of planning.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig

I just searched manually through a few threads. Results vary of course, but people all over Vancouver can pick up Seattle stations. You can call them all liars if you want, but really, what's the point? It takes a combination of a good antenna, a preamp, and mostly some good southern exposure to do it, but it certainly is possible for under $100. A good preamp is $50, and the antenna is certainly less than $50 worth of copper tube, metal rod, and PVC pipe.

The point is it is misleading to tell people they can get stations 160 miles away with under $100 in parts. It isn't going to happen. If people are seeing stations from Seattle in Vancouver then they are viewing the output from translators not the main tower as its too far away without expensive equipment and a lot of planning.

Can you find a translator between Seattle and Vancouver? None exist. The one guy managed to get Seattle stations with a CM 4221-HD and no preamp. He's up pretty high with a very clear southern exposure, so it's practically the best case scenario location-wise, and he's 125 miles by road (so maybe 100-110 direct) to Seattle.

Hell, I'm 50 miles from the KVOS and KBCB towers in Bellingham and I get them with an antenna I made out of 6 coathangers, a piece of 1x4 I pulled from a shoe rack, $6 in screws and washers, and the 300/75 ohm transformer balun that came with my hdtv. I also have a $30 preamp I got to cancel out some of the losses in my splitter, A/B switch and 25' of coax (I'm too lazy to get a shorter piece). Total spent: $36. I'm in a partially sunken apartment facing west (Bellingham is SE of me). My antenna sits on a window sill that has shrubs growing in front of it so dense I can barely see the sidewalk 15 feet away. I am also surrounded by concrete towers which block a lot of signal.

If not for my absolutely crappy location and the need for the A/B switch to have my cable, I'd be able to get the Bellingham stations 50 miles away with a $6 antenna.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig

I just searched manually through a few threads. Results vary of course, but people all over Vancouver can pick up Seattle stations. You can call them all liars if you want, but really, what's the point? It takes a combination of a good antenna, a preamp, and mostly some good southern exposure to do it, but it certainly is possible for under $100. A good preamp is $50, and the antenna is certainly less than $50 worth of copper tube, metal rod, and PVC pipe.

The point is it is misleading to tell people they can get stations 160 miles away with under $100 in parts. It isn't going to happen. If people are seeing stations from Seattle in Vancouver then they are viewing the output from translators not the main tower as its too far away without expensive equipment and a lot of planning.

Can you find a translator between Seattle and Vancouver? None exist.

One station, the Fox affiliate there, has 7 translator towers , that is just that one station. Several of those are between Vancouver and Seattle. They have to use translators in that area because of the terrain.

 

[silverpig]

Oh, and I messed up with my tvfool link earlier. Again my location

This is digital only, post transition. You can see that some of the Seattle stations are 125 miles away and are colour coded yellow, which means "An attic-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above".

The other stations are red, meaning rooftop antenna.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig

I just searched manually through a few threads. Results vary of course, but people all over Vancouver can pick up Seattle stations. You can call them all liars if you want, but really, what's the point? It takes a combination of a good antenna, a preamp, and mostly some good southern exposure to do it, but it certainly is possible for under $100. A good preamp is $50, and the antenna is certainly less than $50 worth of copper tube, metal rod, and PVC pipe.

The point is it is misleading to tell people they can get stations 160 miles away with under $100 in parts. It isn't going to happen. If people are seeing stations from Seattle in Vancouver then they are viewing the output from translators not the main tower as its too far away without expensive equipment and a lot of planning.

Can you find a translator between Seattle and Vancouver? None exist.

One station, the Fox affiliate there, has 7 translator towers , that is just that one station. Several of those are between Vancouver and Seattle. They have to use translators in that area because of the terrain.

And the total irradiated power of those towers is? I doubt they come anywhere near the broadcast power of the main tower.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: silverpig

And the total irradiated power of those towers is? I doubt they come anywhere near the broadcast power of the main tower.

It isn't about ERP. The reason translators are used is to cover areas where the main tower cannot reach due to physical or atmospheric reasons. The main tower can output 1000KW ERP and still a home 20 miles away may not get the signal if something is between it and the tower. Notice on the tvfool link it says LOS or line of sight. Those readings are if you could draw a straight line from your antenna to the tower antenna. If anything is between you and the tower then those figures change. The links at tvfool do not take into account anything that may be between you and the tower like trees or buildings. It is going to be a rare case where someone is 100% LOS to the tower.

Translators are used anytime a station desires to extend the range of their signal and there is no competing stations in the area. There are thousands of them throughout the USA. And many are now using DTS for transmission that allows them to use 1000KW ERP per tower. So one station could have several thousand KW ERP total spread across multiple towers.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig

And the total irradiated power of those towers is? I doubt they come anywhere near the broadcast power of the main tower.

It isn't about ERP. The reason translators are used is to cover areas where the main tower cannot reach due to physical or atmospheric reasons. The main tower can output 1000KW ERP and still a home 20 miles away may not get the signal if something is between it and the tower. Notice on the tvfool link it says LOS or line of sight. Those readings are if you could draw a straight line from your antenna to the tower antenna. If anything is between you and the tower then those figures change. The links at tvfool do not take into account anything that may be between you and the tower like trees or buildings. It is going to be a rare case where someone is 100% LOS to the tower.

Translators are used anytime a station desires to extend the range of their signal and there is no competing stations in the area. There are thousands of them throughout the USA. And many are now using DTS for transmission that allows them to use 1000KW ERP per tower. So one station could have several thousand KW ERP total spread across multiple towers.

The repeaters listed in the wiki page range from 0.3 kW to 15 kW and are all farther from Vancouver than the 30 kW tower in Seattle. And none of those show up on tvfool for Vancouver.

 

[Modelworks]

Translators rarely show up on tvfool.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Translators rarely show up on tvfool.

This KCPQ translator shows up fine. I didn't bother checking the others, but I find it very hard to believe that people in Vancouver are picking up a 15 kW repeater from 200 miles away over a 30 kW tower from 125.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Translators rarely show up on tvfool.

This KCPQ translator shows up fine. I didn't bother checking the others, but I find it very hard to believe that people in Vancouver are picking up a 15 kW repeater from 200 miles away over a 30 kW tower from 125.

The tower closest to Vancouver is in Everett a bit over 80 miles from there. ERP is not the reason why they construct new towers. Using your logic they wouldn't need but one tower for the entire area , instead they need many translators because again, it is the terrain that counts, ERP is second.


Also the main tower is 960KW just shy of the 1000KW limit and they still need translator towers in some areas as close as 40 miles from the main tower.


This illustrates the concept well.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=...&q=id%3d663ddc8f1606ee

Notice people 30 miles from the tower are listed as very weak.

 

[cKGunslinger]

I seemed to have somehow lost Channel 11 (CBS) here in the DFW area. CBS 11 and NBC 5 were the two strongest VHF Digital HD channels I received (stupid ABC is UHF,) but it now appears to be gone. Seems a bit weird.

 

[0roo0roo]

went from 41 yesterday to 45 channels today now in the bay area...
not bad.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Translators rarely show up on tvfool.

This KCPQ translator shows up fine. I didn't bother checking the others, but I find it very hard to believe that people in Vancouver are picking up a 15 kW repeater from 200 miles away over a 30 kW tower from 125.

The tower closest to Vancouver is in Everett a bit over 80 miles from there. ERP is not the reason why they construct new towers. Using your logic they wouldn't need but one tower for the entire area , instead they need many translators because again, it is the terrain that counts, ERP is second.


Also the main tower is 960KW just shy of the 1000KW limit and they still need translator towers in some areas as close as 40 miles from the main tower.


This illustrates the concept well.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=...&q=id%3d663ddc8f1606ee

Notice people 30 miles from the tower are listed as very weak.

So you find it more likely that people in Vancouver are receiving their FOX signal from this repeater in Everett, broadcasting at 15 kW at 86.6 m above sea level and not the KCPQ tower broadcasting at 600 kW from 693 m above sea level?

What's more, people are reporting signal on channel 18 (remaps to 13). The repeater in Everett broadcasts on channel 29.

Well maybe its the fog today but I gett KCPQ fox in at 50% on 13.1 (18).

Also: This google map data shows channel 18 coming in to Vancouver and the Everett repeater not.

 

[Splitting Hairs]

I just discovered this thread and found the discussion very interesting. Long reply but I do have some pertinent "real world" information to set the record straight regarding OTA reception of Seattle channels in Vancouver Canada.

TV Fool Report (1' AGL, higher gets weaker): http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=da32cd6a54b574

Location: South Burnaby (suburb of Vancouver, BC)
430' ASL - Top of south facing slope
No tall buildings / trees blocking signals

Distance: 113-116 miles from Seatac TV towers

Preamp: None used
Tower: None used
Tuner 1: Samsung HDTV (10 Bars maximum, 1 Bar lock)
Tuner 2: HVR-1250 (SNR30 100% maximum, 78% lock)

Antenna #1: M4 (modified DB4)
Antenna #2: Antenna Direct 91XG

Antenna Location: Outside 20' AGL

Seattle Reception (Typical daily for past 11 months)

Seattle Channel / Tuner 1 / Tuner 2 / Comments

4.1 KOMO / 100% SNR28-30 / 9-10 Bars / 24/7 solid **
5.1 KING / 88-92% SNR22-25 / 4-7 Bars / 24/7 solid
7.1 KIRO / 84-88% SNR20-22 / 3-5 Bars / 24/7 solid
16.1 KONG / 81-85% SNR17-20 / 1-3 Bars / 22 hours

** KOMO is often pegged at 10 Bars for hours, even through poring rain or snow.

Other Seattle channels (weather dependent)

11.1 KSTW (summer only)
13.1 KSPQ (summer only)
20.1 KTBW (summer only)
22.1 KZJO (warm clear skies)

With 91XG antenna in attic, KOMO still comes in 24/7 at 90-94% signal strength, with KING and KIRO a few hours each day. My reception of Seattle channels is NOT common of most homes in Vancouver, the key determining factor for solid digital OTA reception is LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. The point of this post: strong STABLE OTA reception of Seattle channels is not only possible in Vancouver, but can be done on a daily basis.

Other keys to maximizing digital OTA reception

1. Antenna (selection and placement)
2. Tuner (5th or 6th generation with good sensitivity)
3. Sweet spot (best location on property)

Additional Comments:

The distance from Greater Vancouver area in Canada to Seattle Washington is 110-120 miles (depends on exact location). The 160 mile figure is not correct and I would agree that 160 miles would be REALLY pushing it for OTA reception of HDTV, certainly for reliable non Tropo reception.

On the other hand, the 60-70 mile "Maximum Reception" myth often quoted on the internet is just that, a myth. Yes the curvature of the earth is a limiting factor, but having some height above sea level will extend this range. ALL the Seattle channels are 1-2 edge at this location, meaning the signals are bouncing off the earth surface 1 or 2 times before reaching my antenna. Refraction of the signals over the 114-116 mile distance to Vancouver is how I am able to receive OTA channels from Seattle. If you draw a straight line between Seattle and South Burnaby BC, the terrain is very favorable with perhaps 70 miles of the total 114 miles being across water. Other locations such as some in Abbotsford BC also benefit from good height (300-600' ASL), and are 7-8 miles closer to Seattle, though the signals travels much more across land.

My local Canadian channels are 9 miles away, all come in 100% from antenna in attic or outside. Using stereo speaker wire for the antenna, still gets 24/7 solid reception in the 85-95% strength range.

 

[Splitting Hairs]

One station, the Fox affiliate there, has 7 translator towers , that is just that one station. Several of those are between Vancouver and Seattle. They have to use translators in that area because of the terrain.

Reception of Seattle channels in Vancouver is NOT coming from translators, that would be a faulty assumption. EVERY Seattle channel that I receive daily with my $65 antenna ($45 DB4 and $20 for upgrade parts to turn it into a so called M4) and no preamp, is coming DIRECTLY from the ORIGINATING towers on Queen Anne Hill in Seattle.

One might be inclined to think that translators are required for digital OTA reception over 100 miles, but I just wanted to set the record straight. In the case of Seattle to Vancouver reception, the signals from originating towers are the ones being received. There are no translators anywhere close enough to the border, plus the RF channel received is the same as the originating signal from Queen Anne Hill. In the case of KONG, KOMO, KIRO and KING, the originating RF31, RF38, RF39, RF49 signals are the respective channels being picked up and re-mapped by my HDTV.

 

[hclarkjr]

wow first post and he brings back post from june 2009???

 

[Splitting Hairs]

The tower closest to Vancouver is in Everett a bit over 80 miles from there. ERP is not the reason why they construct new towers. Using your logic they wouldn't need but one tower for the entire area , instead they need many translators because again, it is the terrain that counts, ERP is second.


Also the main tower is 960KW just shy of the 1000KW limit and they still need translator towers in some areas as close as 40 miles from the main tower.


This illustrates the concept well.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=...&q=id%3d663ddc8f1606ee

Notice people 30 miles from the tower are listed as very weak.

The reason why Seattle has so many translators, is that the surrounding local terrain is bad for OTA, hills and valleys etc. A 1000KW UHF signal can travel quite far given favorably terrain between the tower and receiving antenna, in the case of Seattle to Vancouver, over 100 miles.

 

[Splitting Hairs]

wow first post and he brings back post from june 2009???

Wow, because I just found this forum and topic for the first time. The thread had a LOT of faulty assumptions and was still OPEN for new comments

Got on any comments on the thread topic?