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dbk

Lifer
Apr 23, 2004
17,694
10
81
Now, the House is trying to pass a bill that would appropriate some funds to open the national parks and memorials like the WWII memorial and honor the veterans. Nevermind the rest of the government. Very good PR job by the GOP. Dems hate the veterans!!

Never thought the national parks and monuments would be the front and center of the debate right now. If the WWII vets were not scheduled to show up today, would this debate have happened?!?
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
The states are subject to whatever terms the Constitution has in it. It may choose to structure its power distribution that way, but that can be changed. Each state has only the powers that the Constitution permits it. This is inarguable.



And I would never try to impugn your reading comprehension, nor would I attempt to impugn your ability to admit a simple error of understanding. It's very telling that even when confronted with a bald faced error on your part you're so overcome by rage that you can't stop for a second and admit it.

Poor werepossum.
By your argument, the states had no sovereignty since under the Articles of Constitution they had given up the right to declare war and by your argument sovereignty is binary, something one either has or does lacks. Therefore by your argument, Madison was arguing for eliminating something that had not existed for a decade. And clearly, Madison himself could not have understood his point, since he begins by stating that "consolidation of the whole into one simple republic would be as inexpedient as it is unattainable". Thus, the middle ground he was supposedly seeking could not exist, even if the states' sovereignty hadn't disappeared with the Articles of Constitution - by your argument. But I suppose that, having no proggie there to instruct him, you have no problem believing that Madison was arguing for eliminating something that had not existed for a decade or that he was too dim to understand that there could be no middle ground.

I'll let you have the last word. I'm not willing to believe that you honestly feel I had a reading comprehension error - no one can lie to himself with that much facility - but as you've once again taught me the futility in arguing with the fundamentally dishonest, I'm giving it up.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
Not to mention that Obamacare loots hundreds of billion of dollars from Medicare/Medicaid. Gotta give the Dems credit, even in a city of liars they stand out as particularly accomplished.
Speaking of liars... bolded statement rates as mostly false and I know for a fact that you are aware of that.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
I think you overstate the scope of the SCOTUS case. They only ruled on two questions regarding Obamacare: Was the individual mandate/penalty/tax constitutional and Medicaid expansion. The court rules in favor of the former and against in the latter.

I believe there is also another related case pending. It seems Obamacare originated in the Senate and the Constitution requires such bills (tax) to originate in the House. Somehow Roberts 'forgot' this and since his opinion was a surprise only revealed at the last moment no other justice had an opportunity to raise the issue.

Personally, I doubt SCOTUS will hear the case. Powerful people don't like admitting mistakes.

Fern

I don't overstate it at all, as is implicit in the admission at the end of your post. That was almost certainly the one hearing it will ever get.

Also, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the ACA originated in the Senate but that's simply wrong. The ACA originated as HR 3590 and was passed by the House on October 7th. It was amended and passed by the Senate on December 24th, and the House eventually approved those amendments in March, after which it was signed by Obama.

I doubt SCOTUS would hear the case because it would be dismissed by anyone who just took five minutes to pull up the legislative history like I just did.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
By your argument, the states had no sovereignty since under the Articles of Constitution they had given up the right to declare war and by your argument sovereignty is binary, something one either has or does lacks. Therefore by your argument, Madison was arguing for eliminating something that had not existed for a decade. And clearly, Madison himself could not have understood his point, since he begins by stating that "consolidation of the whole into one simple republic would be as inexpedient as it is unattainable". Thus, the middle ground he was supposedly seeking could not exist, even if the states' sovereignty hadn't disappeared with the Articles of Constitution - by your argument. But I suppose that, having no proggie there to instruct him, you have no problem believing that Madison was arguing for eliminating something that had not existed for a decade or that he was too dim to understand that there could be no middle ground.

Ahh, more dishonesty from you. The states always had the ability to withdraw from the Articles of Confederation. That's what a confederation is, a grouping where the constituent members remain sovereign.

I'll let you have the last word. I'm not willing to believe that you honestly feel I had a reading comprehension error - no one can lie to himself with that much facility - but as you've once again taught me the futility in arguing with the fundamentally dishonest, I'm giving it up.

I'm quite sure you didn't know what a negative was. I'm quite sure you know that too. You're just too proud and too comfortable with being a liar to admit it.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
I think you overstate the scope of the SCOTUS case. They only ruled on two questions regarding Obamacare: Was the individual mandate/penalty/tax constitutional and Medicaid expansion. The court rules in favor of the former and against in the latter.

I believe there is also another related case pending. It seems Obamacare originated in the Senate and the Constitution requires such bills (tax) to originate in the House. Somehow Roberts 'forgot' this and since his opinion was a surprise only revealed at the last moment no other justice had an opportunity to raise the issue.

Personally, I doubt SCOTUS will hear the case. Powerful people don't like admitting mistakes.

Fern
Are conservatives even capable of holding honest conversation?
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Haha, the best you got is a simple metaphor for something the Republicans actually want to do? Oh wow, they don't want to push grandma over a cliff, they are just content to tell her to go fuck herself when she has no moiney for healthcare. And fuck her SS payments, too. Gotta cut those "entitlements!"

Meanwhile, Republicans destroy bullshit meters on a daily basis.
Wow...it appears that you genuinely believe what you've written...so much so that I can actually feel your hatred oozing from my monitor. dank69, that is no way to live my friend. Consider this possiblity...perhaps you are wrong. Maybe, just maybe, conservatives aren't nearly as evil as you imagine them to be.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Speaking of liars... bolded statement rates as mostly false and I know for a fact that you are aware of that.
LOL Okay - Obamacare loving removes $716 billion from Medicare over the next ten years and uses that money for the good of all by wisely investing it in Obamacare. Happy?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I don't overstate it at all, as is implicit in the admission at the end of your post. That was almost certainly the one hearing it will ever get.

Also, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the ACA originated in the Senate but that's simply wrong. The ACA originated as HR 3590 and was passed by the House on October 7th. It was amended and passed by the Senate on December 24th, and the House eventually approved those amendments in March, after which it was signed by Obama.

I doubt SCOTUS would hear the case because it would be dismissed by anyone who just took five minutes to pull up the legislative history like I just did.

I heard it discussed on news radio some time ago.

Are conservatives even capable of holding honest conversation?

Gawd, you're an idiot.

Here, just for you:

H.R. 3590 is the same bill that the Senate passed early on Christmas Eve a few months back, and it now is awaiting the signature of President Obama.

http://www.lifehealthpro.com/2010/03/21/house-oks-hr-3590-the-patient-protection-and-affo

Fern
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
Wow...it appears that you genuinely believe what you've written...so much so that I can actually feel your hatred oozing from my monitor. dank69, that is no way to live my friend. Consider this possiblity...perhaps you are wrong. Maybe, just maybe, conservatives aren't nearly as evil as you imagine them to be.
Wow...it appears that you genuinely believe that Paul Ryan doesn't actively campaign for phasing out Medicare and SS...so much so that I can actually feel your cognitive dissonance oozing from my monitor. Doc Savage Fan, that is no way to live my friend. Consider this possibility...perhaps you are evil. Maybe, just maybe, conservatives like yourself are every bit as evil as facts prove you to be.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
LOL Okay - Obamacare loving removes $716 billion from Medicare over the next ten years and uses that money for the good of all by wisely investing it in Obamacare. Happy?
Why would I be happy with your straw man?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Are conservatives even capable of holding honest conversation?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/mar/31/obamacare-lawsuit-over-health-care-tax-will-test-c/
The Supreme Court upheld most provisions of the act in June, but Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. took pains in the majority opinion to define Obamacare as a federal tax, not a mandate. That was when the Sacramento, Calif.-based foundation’s attorneys had their “aha” moment.
“The court there quite explicitly says, ‘This is not a law passed under the Commerce Clause; this is just a tax,’” foundation attorney Timothy Sandefur said at a Cato Institute forum on legal challenges to the health care act. “Well, then the Origination Clause ought to apply. The courts should not be out there carving in new exceptions to the Origination Clause.”
The Justice Department filed a motion to dismiss the challenge in November, arguing that the high court has considered only eight Origination Clause cases in its history and “has never invalidated an act of Congress on that basis.”
The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia is expected to rule on the Justice Department’s motion “any day now,” said Pacific Legal Foundation attorney Paul J. Beard.
The challenge citing the Origination Clause isn’t the only lawsuit against Obamacare, but it is the only one that has the potential to wipe out the entire act in one fell swoop. Other claims, notably the freedom-of-religion cases dealing with the birth control requirement, nibble at the fringes but would leave the law largely intact.
In their brief, attorneys for the Justice Department argue that the bill originated as House Resolution 3590, which was then called the Service Members Home Ownership Act. After passing the House, the bill was stripped in a process known as “gut and amend” and replaced entirely with the contents of what became the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
You probably don't consider this "real news" since it didn't come from a blog, but what he said was 100% accurate.

I too don't expect SCOTUS to hear it, but my reasons are a little different. I think the Senate absolutely needs to be smacked down from this common practice, I just think it should be on a relatively minor bill rather than on a major and very contentious piece of legislation affecting millions of Americans. SCOTUS cannot possibly divorce Obamacare from the improper procedural process, and that is not in my opinion the way good law is made.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Of course it is the same bill. The hint that it came from the house is that it is called HR3590.

Nope. It had to do with the Dems losing the seat in Mass; Scott Brown won.

With Democrats having lost a filibuster-proof supermajority in the Senate but having already passed the Senate bill with 60 votes on December 24, the most viable option for the proponents of comprehensive reform was for the House to abandon its own health reform bill, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, and pass the Senate's bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, instead. Various health policy experts encouraged the House to pass the Senate version of the bill.[108] However, House Democrats were not happy with the content of the Senate bill and had expected to be able to negotiate changes in a House-Senate conference before passing a final bill.[104] With that option off the table, as any bill that emerged from conference that differed from the Senate bill would have to be passed in the Senate over another Republican filibuster, most House Democrats agreed to pass the Senate bill on condition that it be amended by a subsequent bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

Fern
 
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dbk

Lifer
Apr 23, 2004
17,694
10
81
All the Dem Reps are requesting unanimous consent to bring up the clean CR over and over. LOL like 5 in a row already.. what a stunt!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Nope. It had to do with the Dems losing the seat in Mass; Scott Brown won.



Fern

Nope. Go to the library of congress or any other bill tracking site. The bill clearly and unambiguously started in the house, by the timeline I already gave you.

The facts are the facts. The fact that brown won has literally nothing to do with the origin of hr3590, which was a house bill. You are misunderstanding the difference between the origin and the fact that the house passed the senates amended version of a house bill.

Civics 101
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Nope. Go to the library of congress or any other bill tracking site. The bill clearly and unambiguously started in the house, by the timeline I already gave you.

The facts are the facts. The fact that brown won has literally nothing to do with the origin of hr3590, which was a house bill. You are misunderstanding the difference between the origin and the fact that the house passed the senates amended version of a house bill.

Civics 101

No, it did not.

The House had a bill HR3590 which they gutted and replaced entirely with the already passed Senate bill. They had to go through this BS because the Dems lost 60 votes in the Senate and the Senate Parliamentarian ruled that Obamacare could not be passed under the Budget Reconcilliation Process.

Using this method the Senate did not need to re-vote on Obamacare. It's as clear as h3ll that the Senate passed it first. I.e., the bill originated in the Senate.

The House didn't like the Senate bill but were forced to pass it anyway. They rectified that by shortly afterward passing their bill to amend the Senate bill. In this way the senate could then get it through under Reconciliation thus avoiding the necessity of 60 votes.

It's funny watching you guys defend this crooked process but simultaneously scream about the Repubs in House merely exercise their constitutional role (originate taxing/spending bills) in the current hoo-haa about Obamacare.

Edit: Maybe you should contact wiki and tell them they have it all wrong too.

Fern
 
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