What? No government shutdown threads?

[boomerang]

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a Sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. …Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here’. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and Grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

SENATOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, MARCH 2006

 

[Matt1970]

The problem is, is that the way Bush has done it over the last eight years is to take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents — #43 added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back — $30,000 for every man, woman and child. That’s irresponsible. It’s unpatriotic.

Presidential candidate Barack Obama July 3, 2008

We cannot, and will not, sustain deficits like these without end. We cannot simply spend as we please and defer the consequences to the next budget, the next administration, or the next generation. If we confront this crisis without also confronting the deficits that helped cause it, we risk sinking into another crisis down the road as our interest payments rise, our obligations come due, confidence in our economy erodes, and our children and our grandchildren are unable to pursue their dreams because they’re saddled with our debts.

President Barack Obama 2009

 

[Bowfinger]

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a Sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. …Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here’. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and Grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.”

SENATOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, MARCH 2006

So you agree that the Bush tax cuts* were irresponsible. (*Loans, really, not actual cuts, since they were borrowed from out children.) Because that's what Obama was railing against, recklessly increasing our deficit with unfunded tax cuts. As usual, context is key.

Here's the next paragraph, by the way, the one the Bush apologists invariably neglect to include:

"It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our government’s reckless fiscal policies. Over the past five years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion. That is ‘‘trillion’’ with a ‘‘T.’’ That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next five years, between now and 2011, the president’s budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.”
​

So remember that in spite of Republicans' newly-found anti-deficit religion, it is GWB and Ronald Reagan who reigned over our biggest post-WWII borrowing sprees, cutting taxes while increasing spending. And yes, we've spent trillions under Obama as well, but today's deficit is less than half what he started with. Obama hasn't fixed the problem, but we're now trending the right direction. Perhaps that's why many Republicans are so determined to tank the economy again, to prevent Democrats from getting credit for slashing the deficit.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

The Republicans want to shut down the government because they oppose Obamacare. However, they have completely failed to present a solution to our nation's health care problem. It would be nice if they could step up and say, "Obamacare is a bad plan, we have a better idea!" However, all they have is, "Don't get sick, and if you do get sick die quickly and quietly," and they don't have the cajones to publicly present that plan to the populace.

 

[Bowfinger]

The problem is, is that the way Bush has done it over the last eight years is to take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents — #43 added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back — $30,000 for every man, woman and child. That’s irresponsible. It’s unpatriotic.

Presidential candidate Barack Obama July 3, 2008

We cannot, and will not, sustain deficits like these without end. We cannot simply spend as we please and defer the consequences to the next budget, the next administration, or the next generation. If we confront this crisis without also confronting the deficits that helped cause it, we risk sinking into another crisis down the road as our interest payments rise, our obligations come due, confidence in our economy erodes, and our children and our grandchildren are unable to pursue their dreams because they’re saddled with our debts.

President Barack Obama 2009

What's your point? The deficit under Obama today is less than half of what he started with. Did you think he could wave his magic wand and eliminate the whole thing in one fell swoop?

 

[Bowfinger]

The Republicans want to shut down the government because they oppose Obamacare. However, they have completely failed to present a solution to our nation's health care problem. It would be nice if they could step up and say, "Obamacare is a bad plan, we have a better idea!" However, all they have is, "Don't get sick, and if you do get sick die quickly and quietly," and they don't have the cajones to publicly present that plan to the populace.

This. As bad as "Obamacare" is, it's still a step above doing nothing. Health care in the U.S. was horribly broken, and getting worse. We had to do something. The ACA isn't wonderful, but it was the best we could get through a corrupt and obstructionist Congress. My hope is that once the Republicans either grow up or lose about 100 seats in Congress, we can finally shift attention from their useless repeal theatrics and focus instead on how to improve the ACA. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[boomerang]

Blah, blah - blah, blah, blah.

Progressives - if by a miracle, something turns out good, they are responsible for that. When things turn out bad, it's not their fault.

Please, just stop.

A few posts down is "We had to do something." You will never see the irony in that statement. It's the bleeding heart cry of the progressive. Whether right or wrong, whether affordable or not, whether feasible or not, just do something. Success is then measured by the intention.

Just stop. It's beyond sad.

 

[Matt1970]

What's your point? The deficit under Obama today is less than half of what he started with. Did you think he could wave his magic wand and eliminate the whole thing in one fell swoop?

The budget deficit for 2009 was $1.413 Trillion.
The budget deficit for 2012 was $1.087 Trillion.

Even the most optimistic predictions for 2013 do not put it below half of when he started.

 

[Bowfinger]

The budget deficit for 2009 was $1.413 Trillion.
The budget deficit for 2012 was $1.087 Trillion.

Even the most optimistic predictions for 2013 do not put it below half of when he started.

Wrong again. One of the things that makes trying to have a discussion with people like you so pointless is that you're incapable of processing new information. It's called cognitive dissonance. You start with your faith-based positions, and stubbornly shut out anything that challenges them. You posted multiple times in that very thread, yet a month later you're back to your original beliefs, your faith unfazed by reality.

 

[Bowfinger]

Progressives - if by a miracle, something turns out good, they are responsible for that. When things turn out bad, it's not their fault.

Please, just stop.

A few posts down is "We had to do something." You will never see the irony in that statement. It's the bleeding heart cry of the progressive. Whether right or wrong, whether affordable or not, whether feasible or not, just do something. Success is then measured by the intention.

Just stop. It's beyond sad.

In other words, as usual, you are a mindless partisan drone, uninterested in discussion and incapable of actually addressing others' points. You are exactly the sort of useless noise generator Charles was talking about. Go play with the other children. You have nothing to contribute here.

 

[boomerang]

In other words, as usual, you are a mindless partisan drone, uninterested in discussion and incapable of actually addressing others' points. You are exactly the sort of useless noise generator Charles was talking about. Go play with the other children. You have nothing to contribute here.

You're not looking for discussion, you're looking for an echo chamber. You have tunnel vision and nothing will detract you from it. Arguing with a progressive is about the biggest waste of time that anyone could possibly take on. BTW, the opinion of Charles means zip to me. Nada. He left because he had the mindset of a child and couldn't cope with the virtual world of the internet. Very impressive. No plastic trophy for him or his followers.

But I do want to give you some props. What the rest of knew right out of the gate you have finally, finally, come to realize. Obamacare is bad. Despite our continual pleading, despite continually presenting our case, you have finally come to realize that it is bad. But this is nothing for you to be proud of. It's not a sign of genius, it's the exact opposite.

If it took you this long to figure out Obamacare was bad, who in their right mind would want to invest the time to try and convince you that any of your other hard-held progressive beliefs are garbage? To what end?

 

[fskimospy]

You're not looking for discussion, you're looking for an echo chamber. You have tunnel vision and nothing will detract you from it. Arguing with a progressive is about the biggest waste of time that anyone could possibly take on. BTW, the opinion of Charles means zip to me. Nada. He left because he had the mindset of a child and couldn't cope with the virtual world of the internet. Very impressive. No plastic trophy for him or his followers.

But I do want to give you some props. What the rest of knew right out of the gate you have finally, finally, come to realize. Obamacare is bad. Despite our continual pleading, despite continually presenting our case, you have finally come to realize that it is bad. But this is nothing for you to be proud of. It's not a sign of genius, it's the exact opposite.

If it took you this long to figure out Obamacare was bad, who in their right mind would want to invest the time to try and convince you that any of your other hard-held progressive beliefs are garbage? To what end?

I don't think you understand his point. He is saying that the ACA is not perfect, but it is vastly preferable to A.) the status quo and B.) what conservatives have put forth.

We keep pleading with you just to take a step back and rationally examine the state of health care. We need everyone in America to be onboard with solving this problem and it really sucks that we have one entire political party that is engaged in a nihilistic partisan freakout.

Obamacare will probably end up working quite well overall. I don't mean that its implementation won't have problems, but the overall goals will probably happen and the net outcome will be positive. This is what TRULY terrifies conservatives. That's why you see the continuing efforts to sabotage implementation. They know in their hearts that once all is said and done the average American is probably going to like the results of this bill and once that happens it's too late. They will never get rid of it.

 

[kia75]

So has anyone come up with a plan to placate the Tea Party and avoid a government shutdown? This thread has sort of confirmed my worst fears.

There's some people that say a government shut down won't happen because... magic or something.

And then there's people willing to destroy the United States over Obamacare. They don't know why it's wrong, they don't know how to fix it, they don't have any replacement plans, but they know that it's better for the entire world to go to hell, to screw every American soldier who relies on getting paid, to screw every investor, every small business in order to stop people from getting Obamacare.

How do the democrats placate the Tea Party regarding Obamacare? What can the Democrats do to avert a financial shutdown? The only hope I see is John Boehnor telling the Tea party to suck it and caucusing with the Democrats on this one issue. If he does that then the country is better for it, but that would be political suicide for him, and and any Republicans that supported the Democrats.

 

[Jhhnn]

So has anyone come up with a plan to placate the Tea Party and avoid a government shutdown? This thread has sort of confirmed my worst fears.

There's some people that say a government shut down won't happen because... magic or something.

And then there's people willing to destroy the United States over Obamacare. They don't know why it's wrong, they don't know how to fix it, they don't have any replacement plans, but they know that it's better for the entire world to go to hell, to screw every American soldier who relies on getting paid, to screw every investor, every small business in order to stop people from getting Obamacare.

How do the democrats placate the Tea Party regarding Obamacare? What can the Democrats do to avert a financial shutdown? The only hope I see is John Boehnor telling the Tea party to suck it and caucusing with the Democrats on this one issue. If he does that then the country is better for it, but that would be political suicide for him, and and any Republicans that supported the Democrats.

Placate the Teahadists? That's like trying to placate compulsive arsonists. They just want to burn it down.

They are, of course, financed by the billionaires who see burning down the govt as their chance to become the de facto govt. Small govt just means that nobody can get in their way.

 

[Bowfinger]

You're not looking for discussion, you're looking for an echo chamber. You have tunnel vision and nothing will detract you from it.

You have no idea what I'm interested in, or anyone else here for that matter, because you don't try. You make no attempt to engage in discussion. You make no attempt to challenge others' points factually and accurately. You just paste talking points and attack "progressives", i.e., anyone who doesn't swill the RNC Kool Aid like you.

My first reply to you is a perfect example of that. You took a clip of from an early Obama speech, a clip that has been forwarded endlessly among partisans like yourself, without the faintest clue of its context. When I presented the context, it knocked the wind out of your sails and you fled back to your bunker o'denial, flinging empty, gratuitous insults as your only response. It's your standard MO, demonstrating again and again your lack of intellectual depth and disinterest in discussion.

Arguing with a progressive is about the biggest waste of time that anyone could possibly take on. BTW, the opinion of Charles means zip to me. Nada. He left because he had the mindset of a child and couldn't cope with the virtual world of the internet. Very impressive. No plastic trophy for him or his followers.

But I do want to give you some props. What the rest of knew right out of the gate you have finally, finally, come to realize. Obamacare is bad. Despite our continual pleading, despite continually presenting our case, you have finally come to realize that it is bad. But this is nothing for you to be proud of. It's not a sign of genius, it's the exact opposite.

If it took you this long to figure out Obamacare was bad, who in their right mind would want to invest the time to try and convince you that any of your other hard-held progressive beliefs are garbage? To what end?

Wrong again, sweetie. My position on "Obamcare" hasn't changed. I said from the very beginning it was a cluster. I said from the beginning that half the problem with the ACA was corrupt Democratic Congressmen that forced America to accept such a turd. Nonetheless, it is a necessary first step to break the chains of the status quo and begin a serious initiative to improve American health care.

It is you who faithfully parrots the party line, not me. Like your party, you offer no solutions, just yapping attacks against anything from the left. You said you're only here for entertainment, so perhaps you're actually reasonably intelligent in real life. Here, however, you get your wish because you're a clown. Entertainment is all you have to offer us.

 

[Bowfinger]

I don't think you understand his point. He is saying that the ACA is not perfect, but it is vastly preferable to A.) the status quo and B.) what conservatives have put forth.

We keep pleading with you just to take a step back and rationally examine the state of health care. We need everyone in America to be onboard with solving this problem and it really sucks that we have one entire political party that is engaged in a nihilistic partisan freakout.

Obamacare will probably end up working quite well overall. I don't mean that its implementation won't have problems, but the overall goals will probably happen and the net outcome will be positive. This is what TRULY terrifies conservatives. That's why you see the continuing efforts to sabotage implementation. They know in their hearts that once all is said and done the average American is probably going to like the results of this bill and once that happens it's too late. They will never get rid of it.

Exactly.

 

[fskimospy]

So has anyone come up with a plan to placate the Tea Party and avoid a government shutdown? This thread has sort of confirmed my worst fears.

There's some people that say a government shut down won't happen because... magic or something.

And then there's people willing to destroy the United States over Obamacare. They don't know why it's wrong, they don't know how to fix it, they don't have any replacement plans, but they know that it's better for the entire world to go to hell, to screw every American soldier who relies on getting paid, to screw every investor, every small business in order to stop people from getting Obamacare.

How do the democrats placate the Tea Party regarding Obamacare? What can the Democrats do to avert a financial shutdown? The only hope I see is John Boehnor telling the Tea party to suck it and caucusing with the Democrats on this one issue. If he does that then the country is better for it, but that would be political suicide for him, and and any Republicans that supported the Democrats.

There is no point in placating them or even trying. What they are attempting to do is so damaging to American governance that the only responsible action is to completely refuse to even negotiate.

Think about what the current Republican position is. They are saying that unless the Democrats choose to dismantle lawfully passed legislation that they will cause a government shutdown and a worldwide financial crisis. (at the debt ceiling after the government shutdown) If you follow that idea to its logical conclusion that means that going forward any time a party controls one house of congress they can and should hold the functioning of the US government hostage along with the worldwide financial system.

Don't like the Bush tax cuts? Threaten to destroy the world economy unless they are repealed. Want more gun control measures? Threaten the world economy. Etc, etc. Not only is this wildly irresponsible from a US perspective, but it will eventually have severe long term consequences. Sooner or later the other countries of the world will tire of the annual near-meltdown of world markets and find another country that doesn't have such an unstable political party undermining it.

So again, if there has to be a government shutdown and a debt default, so be it. Giving in to their demands or even giving them the idea that these are levers they can use to negotiate is something that responsible people can't do. You give them absolutely nothing.

 

[boomerang]

Who here can tell me the details of the Republican plan that was proposed this week to replace Obamacare?

Edit: OK, who even knows there was one proposed?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Who here can tell me the details of the Republican plan that was proposed this week to replace Obamacare?

Edit: OK, who even knows there was one proposed?

It's the exact same thing they've been proposing for years. It also drops what is arguably the most popular aspects of the ACA.

 

[fskimospy]

Who here can tell me the details of the Republican plan that was proposed this week to replace Obamacare?

Edit: OK, who even knows there was one proposed?

I think almost everyone does. It was a tiny proposal. The CBO has previously looked at similar proposals and found that they would have only a small impact on the number of uninsured people in the US. Furthermore, the people that gain most from it are people who can take advantage of additional tax breaks on income the most, rich people.

ie: Their 'replacement' doesn't actually replace the ACA and as per usual it benefits the rich that use it the most. Shocker.

 

[cubby1223]

I think almost everyone does. It was a tiny proposal. The CBO has previously looked at similar proposals and found that they would have only a small impact on the number of uninsured people in the US. Furthermore, the people that gain most from it are people who can take advantage of additional tax breaks on income the most, rich people.

ie: Their 'replacement' doesn't actually replace the ACA and as per usual it benefits the rich that use it the most. Shocker.

And "the rich" have been successful in obtaining exemptions from the taxation part of Obamacare, leaving a heavier burden on the working middle class. What's the difference?

 

[kia75]

Who here can tell me the details of the Republican plan that was proposed this week to replace Obamacare?

Edit: OK, who even knows there was one proposed?

Are you talking about a tax deduction for health insurance? That's good if you can afford Health insurance right now, but what does it do for the people that can't? What about the people with pre-existing conditions? Or the people that currently don't have a job that provides cheap health-care? It really accomplishes nothing but giving money to people who already have it.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Who here can tell me the details of the Republican plan that was proposed this week to replace Obamacare?

Edit: OK, who even knows there was one proposed?

Why is there a need to replace that mess. If something is to be provided, due it with proper feedback. Sell it on the truth. Keep lobbyists at arms length. Like Obama told us he would do :hmm :
Decide what the aim is. Not a whitewash.

Is this to lower health care costs to public. Insurance coverage, pharmaceuticals, etc.

 

[Jhhnn]

It really accomplishes nothing but giving money to people who already have it.

Well, yeh, but that's the whole point of modern Republicanism. That, and raving.

 

[Engineer]

Well, yeh, but that's the whole point of modern Republicanism. That, and raving.

That's not true. According to this Forbes OP ED, if the GOP hold fast and shut down big government (permanently), everyone can have their own private jets (just like they have cars now). It will be utopia with great paying jobs and benefits for ALL Americans!!!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntam...r-battle-if-they-promise-voters-private-jets/

To state what’s obvious, Republicans should talk about how much better our lives will be, how much more we’ll earn, and how much more often we’ll be blown away by staggering technological innovations if the federal government is consuming much less of our hard-earned money. In short, Republicans should talk about the private jets we’ll all eventually own if the economy-suffocating growth of government is reversed by the Republican Party.