What? No government shutdown threads?

[Texashiker]

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding here.

I am not sure what you are not understanding. Congress can not spend money it does not have, then ask the federal reserve to print more money out of thin air.

You have also been avoiding the question as to "who" is going to pay that money back?

 

[fskimospy]

I am not sure what you are not understanding. Congress can not spend money it does not have, then ask the federal reserve to print more money out of thin air.

You have also been avoiding the question as to "who" is going to pay that money back?

You realize that issuing debt is not the same thing as printing money, right? Why do you keep conflating the two?

If you don't want Congress to spend the money, then your problem is (again) with appropriations bills. Since you are saying that spending the money is the problem, I will once again have to assume that you have now realized your error and support raising the debt ceiling.

Additionally, I specifically addressed your question about 'paying the debt back' in my previous post. Debt is rolled over in perpetuity, as the government is immortal.

 

[Texashiker]

I will once again have to assume that you have now realized your error and support raising the debt ceiling.

Negative, I will never support raising the debt limit.

It is a matter of national security, and ensuring the financial stability of future generations that we do not raise the spending limit.

Additionally, I specifically addressed your question about 'paying the debt back' in my previous post. Debt is rolled over in perpetuity, as the government is immortal.

What happened to Romes debt?

 

[chucky2]

No, your stance on raising the debt limit is absurd.

Rather than curving government spending, lets just raise the credit limit.


Do you realize how many generations of tax payers it is going to take to pay down the debt?

We are not talking years, we are not talking decades,,,, we are talking generations.

Look, you need to realize something. Enough of the American public, who has been raised to think of today and not tomorrow, generations over now at this point, has been bought with things they never should have had, and the "bill has been 'paid'" with debt. There is no plan to ever pay this debt off. Ever. The Politicians in charge understand this. Their job is simply to keep the populace con game going. How long you ask? Infinitely. Because if the populace were ever to have to feel the affects of not blowing insane amounts of money we don't have, of not actually living not within just their own means, but, the Govs (Fed, state, and local) living within their means, that would be a shitstorm of epic proportions. That is what causes a populace to vote out Politicians and also start questioning The System at large...an extremely dangerous thing.

So fiscal conservative, my suggestion, since I used to be just like you, is...sell out! Don't be the schmuck who tries to fight the good fight, who wants Gov to live within its means. That is not going to happen! Rather than try and accomplish the impossible, simply get as much for you and yours as you can! The "free" stuff you can eek out of the Gov, the better! Enjoy the party while it lasts, not simply just to enjoy it for yourself, but, enjoy it on behalf of some future generation who won't when the con comes crashing down. You owe it to them. Either way some future gen will be F'd, it really is only a matter of which gen will be F'd. Since you'll be dead anyways, it shouldn't matter to you. Get yours while the getting is good! :thumbsup:

Chuck

 

[trenchfoot]

Look, you need to realize something. Enough of the American public, who has been raised to think of today and not tomorrow, generations over now at this point, has been bought with things they never should have had, and the "bill has been 'paid'" with debt. There is no plan to ever pay this debt off. Ever. The Politicians in charge understand this. Their job is simply to keep the populace con game going. How long you ask? Infinitely. Because if the populace were ever to have to feel the affects of not blowing insane amounts of money we don't have, of not actually living not within just their own means, but, the Govs (Fed, state, and local) living within their means, that would be a shitstorm of epic proportions. That is what causes a populace to vote out Politicians and also start questioning The System at large...an extremely dangerous thing.

So fiscal conservative, my suggestion, since I used to be just like you, is...sell out! Don't be the schmuck who tries to fight the good fight, who wants Gov to live within its means. That is not going to happen! Rather than try and accomplish the impossible, simply get as much for you and yours as you can! The "free" stuff you can eek out of the Gov, the better! Enjoy the party while it lasts, not simply just to enjoy it for yourself, but, enjoy it on behalf of some future generation who won't when the con comes crashing down. You owe it to them. Either way some future gen will be F'd, it really is only a matter of which gen will be F'd. Since you'll be dead anyways, it shouldn't matter to you. Get yours while the getting is good! :thumbsup:

Chuck

I'd give fiscal conservatives a whole lot more respect if they'd holler scream and stamp their feet just as loudly when the Repubs were in control....of which they didn't by the way.

 

[fskimospy]

Negative, I will never support raising the debt limit.

It is a matter of national security, and ensuring the financial stability of future generations that we do not raise the spending limit.

So now it is a matter of national security that the US refuses to pay its debts? I have to give you this, I've never seen someone try and declare that for the Good Of The Country we need to refuse to pay for goods and services we have taken from people.

It is also interesting that you believe that causing a worldwide financial crisis is crucial to future financial stability.

What happened to Romes debt?

Are you being serious right now? People have a fairly clearly defined upper limit on age of about 115 years. Governments exist in perpetuity until they are overthrown/collapse/whatever. If the US government collapses we probably have bigger problems than who is going to pay the interest on treasury bonds that month.

 

[Texashiker]

Look, you need to realize something. Enough of the American public, who has been raised to think of today and not tomorrow, generations over now at this point, has been bought with things they never should have had, and the "bill has been 'paid'" with debt. There is no plan to ever pay this debt off. Ever. The Politicians in charge understand this. Their job is simply to keep the populace con game going. How long you ask? Infinitely. Because if the populace were ever to have to feel the affects of not blowing insane amounts of money we don't have, of not actually living not within just their own means, but, the Govs (Fed, state, and local) living within their means, that would be a shitstorm of epic proportions. That is what causes a populace to vote out Politicians and also start questioning The System at large...an extremely dangerous thing.

If and when China comes calling to cash in their savings bonds, we are going to be in deep crap.

Maybe they will buy california and leave the rest of the nation alone?

So fiscal conservative, my suggestion, since I used to be just like you, is...sell out! Don't be the schmuck who tries to fight the good fight, who wants Gov to live within its means. That is not going to happen! Rather than try and accomplish the impossible, simply get as much for you and yours as you can!

It is a matter of principle.

My children should not have to be in debt because of what we do today.

So now it is a matter of national security that the US refuses to pay its debts?.

It is a matter of national security that the government not owe money to a nuclear power.

 

[fskimospy]

If and when China comes calling to cash in their savings bonds, we are going to be in deep crap.

Maybe they will buy california and leave the rest of the nation alone?

First, there's no such thing as 'cashing in their savings bonds'. They could stop buying new debt, but they have no ability to 'cash in' the debt they have. Secondly, China needs to buy US debt far more badly than the US needs to sell it to them. We have China by the balls, not the other way around.

 

[fskimospy]

It is a matter of national security that the government not owe money to a nuclear power.

What does that even mean? Again, please explain why the US must violate numerous statutes and defraud people who have done work for the government as a matter of national security. Additionally, please explain how setting off a worldwide financial crisis would improve financial stability.

I feel like you're just angry and feel like incoherently ranting, because very little of what you've written even makes sense.

 

[Texashiker]

I feel like you're just angry and feel like incoherently ranting, because very little of what you've written even makes sense.

Staying within a budget does not make sense?

Knowing how you are going to pay for something does not make sense?

The only people here not making sense are the ones calling for the government to raise its debt limit.

How much debt is enough? 20 trillion, 50 trillion, 100 trillion?

What comes after trillion? Maybe a zillion?

We are unable to pay back the national debt for at least the next three generations. When is the insanity going to stop?

 

[jackstar7]

Staying within a budget does not make sense?

Knowing how you are going to pay for something does not make sense?

The only people here not making sense are the ones calling for the government to raise its debt limit.

How much debt is enough? 20 trillion, 50 trillion, 100 trillion?

What comes after trillion? Maybe a zillion?

We are unable to pay back the national debt for at least the next three generations. When is the insanity going to stop?

I think your problem is a matter of scope. You're suggesting micro-level solutions for macro-level issues.

 

[fskimospy]

Staying within a budget does not make sense?

Knowing how you are going to pay for something does not make sense?

The only people here not making sense are the ones calling for the government to raise its debt limit.

How much debt is enough? 20 trillion, 50 trillion, 100 trillion?

What comes after trillion? Maybe a zillion?

We are unable to pay back the national debt for at least the next three generations. When is the insanity going to stop?

Once again, budgets come from appropriations bills. It sounds like your issue is with appropriations, not with the debt limit. Since you wish to reduce spending or have the government only spend within its tax revenues, I will assume that you have once again decided to raise the debt limit and focus your energies on changing the appropriations bills.

 

[Texashiker]

I will assume that you have once again decided to raise the debt limit

You assume wrong.

 

[michal1980]

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding here. Your approach to the debt limit is insane. You are saying that rather than curbing government spending, just refuse to pay your bills. I keep asking for an explanation as to why you think intentional debt default is a good fiscal strategy as opposed to say... cutting spending.

Responsible economics says that we should be rapidly increasing federal spending and borrowing even more, but we can't even get to that discussion so long as you think that intentional default is a good plan.



Do you realize that debt/GDP ratio is what is important and that government debt never needs to be repaid as the government is immortal? Debt can be (and is) rolled over in perpetuity.

LOL. do you believe what you write? We can just forever increase our debt, and everything will be happy? LOL.

Ok.

 

[fskimospy]

You assume wrong.

Okay, but since you aren't being rational I don't really know how to continue this discussion. Maybe once you calm down and think about it some more we can pick it back up.

 

[Texashiker]

Okay, but since you aren't being rational I don't really know how to continue this discussion.

You are not the one being rational.

The government can not spend money it does not have.

Raising the debt limit over and over, or even abolishing the limit is insane. We can not continue this madhouse of spending. Nor can we continue to pring money out of thin air.

If the government has to default on unfunded liabilities, so be it. The liability should have been funded beforehand.

 

[fskimospy]

You are not the one being rational.

The government can not spend money it does not have.

Raising the debt limit over and over, or even abolishing the limit is insane. We can not continue this madhouse of spending. Nor can we continue to pring money out of thin air.

If the government has to default on unfunded liabilities, so be it. The liability should have been funded beforehand.

Raising the debt ceiling is (for at least the third time) not printing money. If you have a problem with spending your issue is appropriations bills, not the debt ceiling (for at least the fourth time).

You simply don't appear to know how our government works or the basic structure of national finance. What's more irritating is that you continue to say the same wrong things even after being corrected. We're not talking about differences of opinion here, we're talking about basic facts.

There's no point to continuing this until you become more rational and open to learning something about how the world works. I don't have much hope of either right now.

 

[Texashiker]

There's no point to continuing this until you become more rational and open to learning something about how the world works. I don't have much hope of either right now.

You need to realize:

1. The government can not spend money it does not have.

2. We can not continue to print money out of thin air.

 

[chucky2]

I'd give fiscal conservatives a whole lot more respect if they'd holler scream and stamp their feet just as loudly when the Repubs were in control....of which they didn't by the way.

That's the problem*, we have few fiscal conservatives in office.

*: I say that as a former fiscal conservative. I'm now a Spender, so I want the good times rolling. A member of this forum is working on his Politician buddies for $5k checks, so I can't wait until my sellout money arrives. Laissez les bons temps rouler!

 

[fskimospy]

You need to realize:

1. The government can not spend money it does not have.

2. We can not continue to print money out of thin air.

Continuing to repeat things that by this point even you must know to be false will not change anything. Again, I'm going to hang up my hat here until you come back and can discuss this a bit more rationally.

 

[Paul98]

Staying within a budget does not make sense?

This right here is one of your major problems understanding government debt, deficit and budgets.

What do you think not paying their obligations is going to do?

 

[fskimospy]

LOL. do you believe what you write? We can just forever increase our debt, and everything will be happy? LOL.

Ok.

Of course we can increase our debt forever. You realize that the net debt of the United States has increased nearly every year for the entirety of our country's existence, right? The issue is our debt/GDP ratio, not the debt as an absolute number.

 

[chucky2]

If and when China comes calling to cash in their savings bonds, we are going to be in deep crap.

Maybe they will buy california and leave the rest of the nation alone?

That doesn't matter. Even if China stopped buying US debt that will be down the road. You're not getting it: Until China is standing on its own two feet as the new world consumer, and, on its own as far as funding, developing, and manufacturing things it needs, it needs the US/EU. So until that day happens, the Politicians can keep on blowing money like a drunken sailor (well, more actually, because Politicians have no limit on what they can blow where a sailor does). So how long will that be from now? Longer than you'll be alive. Longer than the Politicians in charge now will be alive. You can't think they care about the future do you?

It is a matter of principle.

Right, I get that. I used to be just like you regarding Gov spending. But please realize this: Percentage wise, you are the lone male on deck yelling at all the other males throwing females and kids out of the way to get themselves on the lifeboats first to let the women and kids on first. Who is hearing you? No one. Not because you lack principle, but because they all have far different priorities. Spenders wish is to spend money they don't have at fantastic rates. Time infinity. Any excuse will be justified, any reason cooked up. Never will there be a time where they go, Wow, maybe, gee, maybe we should live within our means as a nation.

Even if that day comes, The System and the base of the Spender Leadership will ensure that 'live within our means' becomes so insanely skewed as they'll still be blowing money we don't have at fantastic rates. Their survival depends on this and like the males not listening to you, they will do anything to ensure they survive.

My children should not have to be in debt because of what we do today.

Look, don't worry. The sad fact is there will be Politicians for likely the vast majority, if not all, of your childrens lives who will keep the game going so they won't have to suffer...or, at least, suffer much. Now, your grandkids or great-grandkids? Or, great great grandkids? Well, they're likely F'd. But you'll be long dead, so it's not your problem.

It is a matter of national security that the government not owe money to a nuclear power.

Bah! Don't worry about China, they've got Afghanistan to rape for the lithium there, that they'll then upsell to the Western world at great markup. They'll be too busy making vast sums off our weakness to nuke us.

Chuck

 

[Daverino]

You need to realize:

1. The government can not spend money it does not have.

2. We can not continue to print money out of thin air.

Raising the debt limit is not spending money we do not have. It's spending money we've already spent.

If you don't want to spend money we don't have, that's cool. Slash the budget or whatever. But that has nothing to do with the debt limit.

If I ask you to let me borrow $10.00, spend the $10.00 and then instead of repaying you I claim, "I don't have the $10.00 and I will not spend money I do not have to repay you." is that a responsible thing to do? No. Preventing the government from paying its debts is equally irresponsible.

What you really wanted was for the government not to borrow those $10.00 in the first place. The debt we're paying off now is decades old, it's not something new. So that means you didn't want us to go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan among other things.

However, that's water under the bridge.

 

[Texashiker]

If I ask you to let me borrow $10.00, spend the $10.00 and then instead of repaying you I claim, "I don't have the $10.00 and I will not spend money I do not have to repay you." is that a responsible thing to do? No. Preventing the government from paying its debts is equally irresponsible.

Asking to borrow $10 that you know will never be paid back, and if it is paid back the money is borrowed from someone else, is being financially irresponsible.

The government can not pay its debt, and will never be able to pay its debt, but it wants to raise the amount of money it can borrow?