What should be taxed higher: wages or capital gains?

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sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,218
15,787
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: sdifox
I think capital gain should be taxed at the same rate as income. However, I would not tax a portfolio, only the portion that has been liquidated and moved out of the portfolio. So if I start a 1000 dollar portfolio, and manage to make it into a 50,000 portfolio, that is my business. But if I try to cash in the earning and take that money out, it gets taxed at capital gain tax rate. You just need to figure out how many percent of the initial portfolio it is.
I agree regarding the taxation of portfolios, but i'm not versed enough on how they are taxed right now. I tend to move my investments around quite often, so I'm taxed frequently regardless... it would be great if someone here could explain, in laymen's terms, exactly how CG taxes work now... anyone?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/00/102300.asp

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: Fern

I tend to agree with you that wages should not be taxed higher than passive-type investment income.

Good to hear.

But I believe the disparity betwen is primarily the result of two things

(1) Social Security. We should drop the illusion that SS is some type of government "investment account". The benefits have been extended to so many who don't contribute that SS has become far more than a retirement account, it's more a social welfare program. Let those with investment income also contribute to SS.

We'd have to consider how this could affect the fairness where earning cpiatal gains entitles people to SS. SS has its own big issues, primarily the terrible debt created by Reagan and Greenspan (and continued since) with the trust fund that's been emptied every year. But it's a separate issue.

(2) Laziness or simplicity on the part of the government. Gains from long-invested capital suffer from inflation, making the gain seem "larger" and the tax smaller. Other countries (not many) actually index capital gains and then tax normally. Since we don't index here, if cap gains were taxed equally as wages their (cap gains) tax would actually be higher.

I.e., what no one has identified yet in this thread is that cap gains get a smaller rate because of inflation. That's one important justification, at least for us finacial "number cruncher" types.

Fern

The 'smaller rate' is more than offset by the higher rate they get by getting to reinvest untaxed earnings indefinitely.

The loss to inflation is about 2% (and affects wages as well); the benefit of reinvesting untaxed earnings increases the reinvestment by 15%, plus the cumulative effect.

The investor can have the same deal the wage earners get if he wants, by selling his investments to realize the gains annualy and paying taxes, the way wages do.

Not a good deal for the investor. In fact, it's they huge fortunes that have this nice little effect go on for decades.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Craig234

The 'smaller rate' is more than offset by the higher rate they get by getting to reinvest untaxed earnings indefinitely.

The loss to inflation is about 2% (and affects wages as well); the benefit of reinvesting untaxed earnings increases the reinvestment by 15%, plus the cumulative effect.

The investor can have the same deal the wage earners get if he wants, by selling his investments to realize the gains annualy and paying taxes, the way wages do.

Not a good deal for the investor. In fact, it's they huge fortunes that have this nice little effect go on for decades.

I'm not I sure I follow tha above. But think it more comlicated than can be adequately discussed here. If your above remarks in any way presume linear accretion in a capital aset's value, it is faulty. The concept of "reivesting taxing earnings" is highly debatable, the details of which will vary whether real estate or stocks. Wages do not sufer anaul inflation, I've never heard of an annual paycheck. They come weekly, bi-weekly or monthly. An investor can often own real estate or stocks for 20 yrs etc.

Nevertheless, I agree that all income s/b taxed equally. I just feel cap gains needs to be indexed for inflation. Why does an investor holding property for 366 days get the same break as one holding it for 20 yrs?
-----------------------------------------

I've thought that for longest time when we discuss the "rich vs poor" in these tax-type threads we are missing a huge point - You're not "rich" because of how much taxable is on your return, you're "rich" because of how much you own. The latter cannot be found by looking at tax returns.

And just because you have a low taxable income doesn't mean you're NOT rich. Vis-versa.

Fern

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,426
8,388
126
Originally posted by: sdifox
I think capital gain should be taxed at the same rate as income. However, I would not tax a portfolio, only the portion that has been liquidated and moved out of the portfolio. So if I start a 1000 dollar portfolio, and manage to make it into a 50,000 portfolio, that is my business. But if I try to cash in the earning and take that money out, it gets taxed at capital gain tax rate. You just need to figure out how many percent of the initial portfolio it is.

and that would eliminate the concern of Prof John that high tax rates upon 'realized' investments keep people from switching from one investment to one that is offers a better rate of return (but not one that is so much better as to make up for the tax treatment).


the other problem with capital gains taxes is that capital can move elsewhere (offshore) very quickly and very easily. the risk of the forex market can be managed with currency hedging. so, financially savvy individuals will invest overseas. ok, well, we can tax those people if they're US citizens (iirc, the US is the only country that taxes on the basis of citizenship). but what about the jobs (and taxes associated with them) created overseas, rather than here? are they lost? will they be made up in some other fashion?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Craig234

The 'smaller rate' is more than offset by the higher rate they get by getting to reinvest untaxed earnings indefinitely.

The loss to inflation is about 2% (and affects wages as well); the benefit of reinvesting untaxed earnings increases the reinvestment by 15%, plus the cumulative effect.

The investor can have the same deal the wage earners get if he wants, by selling his investments to realize the gains annualy and paying taxes, the way wages do.

Not a good deal for the investor. In fact, it's they huge fortunes that have this nice little effect go on for decades.

I'm not I sure I follow tha above. But think it more comlicated than can be adequately discussed here. If your above remarks in any way presume linear accretion in a capital aset's value, it is faulty. The concept of "reivesting taxing earnings" is highly debatable, the details of which will vary whether real estate or stocks. Wages do not sufer anaul inflation, I've never heard of an annual paycheck. They come weekly, bi-weekly or monthly. An investor can often own real estate or stocks for 20 yrs etc.

Nevertheless, I agree that all income s/b taxed equally. I just feel cap gains needs to be indexed for inflation. Why does an investor holding property for 366 days get the same break as one holding it for 20 yrs?

It's "reinvesting untaxed earnings" rather than "reinvesting taxing earnings".

It greatly increases the return on investment in a way unavailable for wages, which are taxed the year they are received. (The fact they're paid out in 26 payments is irrelevant).

It means that while you don't get anything a couple years later from your work today, as your investment accumulates, all the earnings have no taxes paid and can be added to the investment. Just google for the terms we're using and you'll lots of charts showing how this is huge (even better is how it works for 401(k)'s for very limited dollar amounts, where the initial investment is untaxed, too).

-----------------------------------------

I've thought that for longest time when we discuss the "rich vs poor" in these tax-type threads we are missing a huge point - You're not "rich" because of how much taxable is on your return, you're "rich" because of how much you own. The latter cannot be found by looking at tax returns.

And just because you have a low taxable income doesn't mean you're NOT rich. Vis-versa.

Fern

True enough, which is why several European countries - and profjohn will go along with this since he's now using them as a role model - have 'wealth taxes' of, say, 1.5%.

But virtually no large amount of wealth has low income - it's virtually always invested and creating income, whether taxable or, more often, deferred.

People don't put $10 million in a mattress. They do put it in real estate, stocks, etc. which have no taxes often for decades.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The easy answer is that you have lower tax rates on capital gains because it encourages investments and it encourages people to cash in on their investments and take that profit and use it to earn even more money. All of which helps the economy.

I have a naive question: if I invest by buying 100 shares of IBM, how does that stimulate the economy?

This is assuming that IBM wasn't selling shares at the time in order to raise capital to, say, build a research facility somewhere that would employ 300 people.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The easy answer is that you have lower tax rates on capital gains because it encourages investments and it encourages people to cash in on their investments and take that profit and use it to earn even more money. All of which helps the economy.

I have a naive question: if I invest by buying 100 shares of IBM, how does that stimulate the economy?

This is assuming that IBM wasn't selling shares at the time in order to raise capital to, say, build a research facility somewhere that would employ 300 people.

Then you're buying the shares from someone else, who will use the money he got from selling his shares on another investment, or he'll spend it and that'll benefit the economy as well.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Then you're buying the shares from someone else, who will use the money he got from selling his shares on another investment, or he'll spend it and that'll benefit the economy as well.

Well, that might be true if the person spends it, but there is another thing to consider and that is that after buying the shares I can no longer spend that money, so it doesn't seem like there was any gain for the economy from my purchase of the shares.

I just don't see how all the shares juggling helps the economy.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
On one extreme, you have the 'communist' idea where there's inadeqaute incentive for people to contribute - a lack of reward. Again and again, history shows us that motives such as patriotism and community spirit are not long-lasting as replacements for material reward.

In the middle, you have a system where there are good rewards for people to contribute. It's a balance between some money going to take care of the poor and sick, while allowing people to get more for contributing.

On the other extreme, you have a concentration of wealth so high that the meritocracy is broken - people can't get justly compensated for contributing because having wealth is the lock on gaining wealth; there is waste in society, such as a lack of education to save the social spending, etc. It's an oligarchy where the protection of the interests of the few comes before the good of society, and overall gains are reduced in order to protect the wealth of those who have the wealth already. If you aren't one of them, it's hard to get to be one.

Consider what's happened in the last 25 years as the US has moved from the middle towards the second extreme, for example, with CEO pay.

The uninformed simplisitcally respond to any comments on increases in CEO pay with 'they contribute and so they get rewarded'. But is that what's happening? Or are they simply able to game the system more and more, harming society?

In 1980, CEOs made 45 times the earnings of nonsupervisory workers. In 2000, it was 458 times the earnings. Did they become not only ten times more valuable - but ten times more valuable compared to workers? Or was it simply gaming the system?

Worker pay was *lower* after inflation in 2000 than in 1980; CEO pay was ten times higher, after inflation.

In 1980, full-time production and nonsupervisory workers made $28,950 on average and CEOs made $1.3 million (in 2000 dollars). Last year, workers made $28,579 while CEOs made $13.1 million.

At the same time US CEO pay has reached $13.1 million, top people at the 100 largest British companies are still at an average of $1 million.

This is the problem - the right are tyically ideologues who are buying the *theory* that the 'rational' market means that the compensation will be appropriate, that checks and balances will prevent abuses - and they can't be bothered to look at the facts and notice when it's broken.

Most CEO pay leaders underperformed the market going up, and have underperformed it going down. According to a new report by the Boston-based United for a Fair Economy, "If you had invested $10,000 in Walt Disney stock on December 31, 1993, the year CEO Michael Eisner topped Business Week's highest-paid list, held the stock for one year, then sold it to buy the stock in next year's pay leader and so on, by the end of 1999, your $10,000 investment would have eroded to just $3,585. A similar $10,000 investment made in the S&P 500 over the same period would have grown to $32,301."

We don't need to be worrying about 'encouraging investment' by the ultra wealthy in an era where they're already skyrocketing past the rest of society in increasing their share of wealth while the average citizen stagnates economically. That policy reflects their increase in political power, not something justified, not good policy.

People with great wealth can continue to make great wealth with no more than letting someone invest their money for them.

Society benefits from society getting to make some increased income, too - which for 80% of Amricans has not happened for 25 years now.

We're in a spiral of the ultra wealthy gaining power - already to the point where the national agenda far over represents their desires, and the gap is bigger every year.

Link
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I am for a flat tax with no loopholes.

We have so many tax laws no one can know them all!

If you are a rich guy and you cant find a way to cheat the tax system, or just use it to your advantage, then you must be an idiot.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
umm several countries in Europe have NO capital gains taxes, if there is a holding period of over a year.

Since we seem to love the way Europe does everything else why not follow them when it comes to this?

Only if we get to increase income taxes to 70%.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: piasabird
I am for a flat tax with no loopholes.

We have so many tax laws no one can know them all!

If you are a rich guy and you cant find a way to cheat the tax system, or just use it to your advantage, then you must be an idiot.

I'm in favor of 'good' complexity to the tax code, the kind that serves a social purpose such as encouraging the adoption of children; and against the corrupt 'giveaways'.

Our problem now is that the wealthy are so politically powerful, they can make the tax laws serve them - the chances of the wealthy being audited have plummeted.

In the meantime, the odds of the poor being audited have shot up and are now far higher than for the wealthy.
 
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