what sport is the most difficult to master skillwise?

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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I stand corrected, I'm surprised though as usually race teams are looking for any weight savings possible and a PS pump has a parasitic draw unless it's of the electric variety. Electric has crappy feedback though, I know , my car has it, maybe someone supplies NASCAR with a more natural-feeling one than street cars have.

you also have to turn a car going 200 mph
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
if there's a non-arbitrary, quantifiable result, then it's a sport - either solo, team, en masse, whatever.

if the results are dependent on a panel of judges awarding a score based on their opinions, then it is NOT a sport - figure skating.

any sport is immensely difficult when taken to its highest level. hitting a big league baseball 4 out of 10 times, winning the 24 hours of le mans, chess world championship - it's all apples and oranges, except 99.9% of people can't even come close to competing at that level.

edit:
and a big LOL at anyone that thinks motor racing is easy, or that they can approach any kind of competitive performance because they drive to work every day. that's like saying "sure, i could do pretty well in a marathon. i walk around all the time."
 
Last edited:

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
if there's a non-arbitrary, quantifiable result, then it's a sport - either solo, team, en masse, whatever.

if the results are dependent on a panel of judges awarding a score based on their opinions, then it is NOT a sport - figure skating.

any sport is immensely difficult when taken to its highest level. hitting a big league baseball 4 out of 10 times, winning the 24 hours of le mans, chess world championship - it's all apples and oranges, except 99.9% of people can't even come close to competing at that level.

edit:
and a big LOL at anyone that thinks motor racing is easy, or that they can approach any kind of competitive performance because they drive to work every day. that's like saying "sure, i could do pretty well in a marathon. i walk around all the time."

You know basically every sport with a "non-arbitrary, quantifiable result" has a panel of judges that impact the tabulation of that non-arbitrary, quantifiable result, so that in the end, it is completely arbitrary.

So I applaud your attempt to make what is and isn't a sport distinguishable, but really it isn't that simple.
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
You know basically every sport with a "non-arbitrary, quantifiable result" has a panel of judges that impact the tabulation of that non-arbitrary, quantifiable result, so that in the end, it is completely arbitrary.

So I applaud your attempt to make what is and isn't a sport distinguishable, but really it isn't that simple.

in the context of crossing the finish line first, putting a ball in the goal more times than an opponent, et cetera. of course, there are officials to see that these were done in a valid way, but there's a world of difference between that and figure skating.

not to say skating, gymnastics and so on aren't very difficult, but my opinion of 1 person's dance moves compared to another's does not constitute a sport.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
in the context of crossing the finish line first, putting a ball in the goal more times than an opponent, et cetera. of course, there are officials to see that these were done in a valid way, but there's a world of difference between that and figure skating.

not to say skating, gymnastics and so on aren't very difficult, but my opinion of 1 person's dance moves compared to another's does not constitute a sport.

I agree to certain extent but rules and referees make most "sports" just a game rather than sport if we apply strict definition. Baseball, football, soccer, basketball, hockey, etc is just a game rather than "sport". Rules and applications are so subjective that officials can effect the outcome. Officials are judges in a sense.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
If anyone doubts baseball and hitting, just go find a batting machine and set it at 70mph and have at it. That's typically slower than the slowest curve balls the pros throw. When you've become proficient at that, go find a college pitcher to toss you a few.

When you're done missing everything, remember....that was a college pitcher. The pros will make you cry...or eat a lot of dirt.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
I stand corrected, I'm surprised though as usually race teams are looking for any weight savings possible and a PS pump has a parasitic draw unless it's of the electric variety. Electric has crappy feedback though, I know , my car has it, maybe someone supplies NASCAR with a more natural-feeling one than street cars have.

From what I've read, it's a recirculating ball ps system from pickups. Remember, they've got enough hp to compensate for the very minor parasitic losses the ps pump puts on the engine, and since everyone uses ps, it's essentially even across the board.


you also have to turn a car going 200 mph

Not just the speed, but the downforce generated by race cars. What's surprising is that IRL cars don't use ps, despite the massive downforce they generate. Steering them has been equated to trying to steer old school non-ps cars with flat tires. Horrible.
 

boomhower

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2007
7,228
19
81
I voted F1. The super fast reflexes, intense concentration needed over hours, ability to withstand huge G's all lead to a very very small number of people being able to succeed in it. There are a ton of top notch baseball and golfers but not so much F1 drivers.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
I voted F1. The super fast reflexes, intense concentration needed over hours, ability to withstand huge G's all lead to a very very small number of people being able to succeed in it. There are a ton of top notch baseball and golfers but not so much F1 drivers.

The scarcity of F1 drivers have more to do with the lack of opportunity and economics rather than the lack of ability.
 

boomhower

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2007
7,228
19
81
The scarcity of F1 drivers have more to do with the lack of opportunity and economics rather than the lack of ability.

I agree it certainly plays a part, particularly in the US. But it's very similar in golf as well, little Billy isn't going to make it without Mom and Dad being able to pay for good coaches to teach him. Sure, some have made it but certainly a lot come from money. Same story in tennis as well.

Baseball seems to be an outlier here where if your good enough you can make it.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
But it's very similar in golf as well, little Billy isn't going to make it without Mom and Dad being able to pay for good coaches to teach him.

In golf/tennis you need the bank of mom and dad. In F1 you need real banks.
 

eng2d2

Golden Member
Nov 7, 2013
1,007
38
91
Batting machine is easy to beat. Once you know where to hit the ball you just stay there.
 

Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
5,723
325
126
F1 is about reaction time, not about skill..

Really? Then why do the best f1 drives still beat computer controlled cars? The computers have far far far better reaction times. If you do any reading into "reaction time" in sports you find its all about recognizing patterns, not reaction time. A person who is good in their sport can recognize what is going to happen and set their reaction in motion far advance. For example batters have to start swinging their bat shortly after the pitcher releases the ball due to the slow speed of nerve impulses. They do this by looking at the motion of the throw and position of the pitcher, not tracking the ball and having better reaction speed. I remember interesting study where they would crop pictures of pro athletes to remove the ball from a photo (I think the did several sports, but I know volleyball for sure). They then asked them to place the ball. Pro players did this very accurately. They also showed the pictures in extremely quick flashes and the pro players again were able to extract a ton of info in a picture display so quickly you could even really consciously see it.

So TL;DR Reaction speed has little to do with how good pros are. Its about reading a scene.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
If anyone doubts baseball and hitting, just go find a batting machine and set it at 70mph and have at it. That's typically slower than the slowest curve balls the pros throw. When you've become proficient at that, go find a college pitcher to toss you a few.

When you're done missing everything, remember....that was a college pitcher. The pros will make you cry...or eat a lot of dirt.

If you figure 10,000 hours to greatness, the popular book, mastery in ANY sport is simply a factor of how much time you put into it, plus the intangibles to handle the pressure.

If a particular sport were devoid of any sort of pressure, then that would be easiest, but considering all sports are competitive and have that competitive pressure involved. They are basically just the same.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
in the context of crossing the finish line first, putting a ball in the goal more times than an opponent, et cetera. of course, there are officials to see that these were done in a valid way, but there's a world of difference between that and figure skating.

not to say skating, gymnastics and so on aren't very difficult, but my opinion of 1 person's dance moves compared to another's does not constitute a sport.

crossing a line first is actually completely different than putting a ball in a goal more times than an opponent. There are no human elements involved in timed races, but when fouls can be called like in any object goes into goal game. It brings arbitrary judgment into the game.

So is track and field the only real sport?
 

MasterAndCommander

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2004
3,656
0
71
SPORT
1. Boxing
2. Ice Hockey
3. Football
4. Basketball
5. Wrestling
6. Martial Arts
7. Tennis
8. Gymnastics
9. Baseball/Softball
10. Soccer
11. Skiing: Alpine
12. Water Polo
13. Rugby
14. Lacrosse
15. Rodeo: Steer Wrestling
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
If anyone doubts baseball and hitting, just go find a batting machine and set it at 70mph and have at it. That's typically slower than the slowest curve balls the pros throw. When you've become proficient at that, go find a college pitcher to toss you a few.

When you're done missing everything, remember....that was a college pitcher. The pros will make you cry...or eat a lot of dirt.

Tennis. Granted, hitting a baseball is very hard. Hit 3 out of 10 and you are a legend. Hit 2 out of 10 and you won't stay in the professional ranks. A baseball bat is much smaller than a tennis racket and the last time I checked baseballs are very hard.

That stated, Tennis serves are about 25% faster than a 95mph fastball. But instead of hitting a ball passing through a knee-to-waist zone 18 inches wide a tennis player needs to be able to return the service both forehand and backhand in a much larger zone off the bounce (which may take the ball out of the zone) and accurately return to a much more confined valid return space (i.e. you cannot just drive the ball like in baseball). A master tennis server is going to be putting crazy side, top, and back spin on the balls, too, which make it react much like a baseball. And about that bounce, depending on the spin and surface it will react differently. The ball is going to travel differently on grass, clay, etc. The technique is also quite different in regards to foot work. Baseball players are always playing with the pitcher on the rubber tossing over dirt. Oh yeah, a tennis server can move and setup different attack angles.

Yes, the racket head is bigger in tennis than a baseball bat. But the sweet spot isn't as big as the racket face. And statistically I bet tennis players get their racket on the ball more often than a baseball player gets the bat on the ball, including fouls. But this isn't so cut and dry once you consider baseball players rarely bunt (high percentage bat on ball) and many tennis returns are essentially a "bunt" and just an effort to get the ball into play.

Of course serving/return is just one part of tennis. In baseball a hitter can stink at defense and either be a liability in the field and be tossed into a position with minimal ball handling (e.g. right field) or moved to DH and play no defense at all! Ditto pitchers. Most cannot hit and their fielding is poor. They are paid to master one aspect of baseball, and that aspect only. A whole league (AL) doesn't ask them to hit at all!

There are no designated hitters in tennis. There are not "servers" who take no part in defense or hitting. In tennis you must be able to serve, return service, and volley. Obviously, not all tennis pros are equals at all aspect of the game. That is the point: very few can master every aspect. But unlike baseball there is no free pass for stinking. If you serve great and volley great but cannot return a professional service you won't be a pro.

So while baseball has its fair share of very slow, even fat, players who do one thing well (pitch or hit) the skill to master tennis is much, much higher. And of course there is the entire conditioning aspect where tennis is surprisingly very taxing.

The pool of tennis pros (masters) is also much smaller than baseball where in America you have about 30 teams with 25 active players on the roster with another 15 or so designated. Counting "pros" as the pool of mastered players baseball has well over 700 active at any one time. Tennis has much fewer (64 at the biggest tournaments). In this sense Tennis has the confined field like golf but requires the skills of a more demanding sport. Unlike golf in tennis there is no "lucky day" where a complete hack can get below par. That is because in tennis you always have an opponent that can neutralize your effort. It takes little skill to hit a nice golf shot; it takes a lot of skill to hit a nice golf shot regularly. In tennis you see a top tier who based on skill regularly separate themselves; in golf you regularly see less skilled players win. To me that says golf requires less skill to master (and puts into perspective how much better Tiger Woods was than the competition in his prime as he was able to overcome this variability).

I also think football is harder than people think. Where football gets dinged is there are 22 active players on the field but room for a lot of specialists (3rd receiver, 3rd down back, jump TE, nickel corner, kicker, punter, kick returner), and 53 players on each roster. A player need not master each position but just be good at 1. That said the combine workout warriors prove that athleticism alone won't make a player a good pro. Football is more than freak genetics. It requires a large degree of toughness and the ability in most positions to remain mentally focused while in pain, fending off contact from equally physical opponents, while maintaining a high degree of discipline, balance, and field awareness.

Hockey is another sport, like football, that requires a combination of mental skill, fine motor skills (skating, pick handling), but also a lot of grit to receive a lot of pain while remaining mentally strong and not compromising the finer skills.
 

smitbret

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2006
3,389
23
81
Tennis. Granted, hitting a baseball is very hard. Hit 3 out of 10 and you are a legend. Hit 2 out of 10 and you won't stay in the professional ranks. A baseball bat is much smaller than a tennis racket and the last time I checked baseballs are very hard.

That stated, Tennis serves are about 25% faster than a 95mph fastball. But instead of hitting a ball passing through a knee-to-waist zone 18 inches wide a tennis player needs to be able to return the service both forehand and backhand in a much larger zone off the bounce (which may take the ball out of the zone) and accurately return to a much more confined valid return space (i.e. you cannot just drive the ball like in baseball). A master tennis server is going to be putting crazy side, top, and back spin on the balls, too, which make it react much like a baseball. And about that bounce, depending on the spin and surface it will react differently. The ball is going to travel differently on grass, clay, etc. The technique is also quite different in regards to foot work. Baseball players are always playing with the pitcher on the rubber tossing over dirt. Oh yeah, a tennis server can move and setup different attack angles.

Yes, the racket head is bigger in tennis than a baseball bat. But the sweet spot isn't as big as the racket face. And statistically I bet tennis players get their racket on the ball more often than a baseball player gets the bat on the ball, including fouls. But this isn't so cut and dry once you consider baseball players rarely bunt (high percentage bat on ball) and many tennis returns are essentially a "bunt" and just an effort to get the ball into play.

Of course serving/return is just one part of tennis. In baseball a hitter can stink at defense and either be a liability in the field and be tossed into a position with minimal ball handling (e.g. right field) or moved to DH and play no defense at all! Ditto pitchers. Most cannot hit and their fielding is poor. They are paid to master one aspect of baseball, and that aspect only. A whole league (AL) doesn't ask them to hit at all!

There are no designated hitters in tennis. There are not "servers" who take no part in defense or hitting. In tennis you must be able to serve, return service, and volley. Obviously, not all tennis pros are equals at all aspect of the game. That is the point: very few can master every aspect. But unlike baseball there is no free pass for stinking. If you serve great and volley great but cannot return a professional service you won't be a pro.

So while baseball has its fair share of very slow, even fat, players who do one thing well (pitch or hit) the skill to master tennis is much, much higher. And of course there is the entire conditioning aspect where tennis is surprisingly very taxing.

The pool of tennis pros (masters) is also much smaller than baseball where in America you have about 30 teams with 25 active players on the roster with another 15 or so designated. Counting "pros" as the pool of mastered players baseball has well over 700 active at any one time. Tennis has much fewer (64 at the biggest tournaments). In this sense Tennis has the confined field like golf but requires the skills of a more demanding sport. Unlike golf in tennis there is no "lucky day" where a complete hack can get below par. That is because in tennis you always have an opponent that can neutralize your effort. It takes little skill to hit a nice golf shot; it takes a lot of skill to hit a nice golf shot regularly. In tennis you see a top tier who based on skill regularly separate themselves; in golf you regularly see less skilled players win. To me that says golf requires less skill to master (and puts into perspective how much better Tiger Woods was than the competition in his prime as he was able to overcome this variability).


I also think football is harder than people think. Where football gets dinged is there are 22 active players on the field but room for a lot of specialists (3rd receiver, 3rd down back, jump TE, nickel corner, kicker, punter, kick returner), and 53 players on each roster. A player need not master each position but just be good at 1. That said the combine workout warriors prove that athleticism alone won't make a player a good pro. Football is more than freak genetics. It requires a large degree of toughness and the ability in most positions to remain mentally focused while in pain, fending off contact from equally physical opponents, while maintaining a high degree of discipline, balance, and field awareness.

Hockey is another sport, like football, that requires a combination of mental skill, fine motor skills (skating, pick handling), but also a lot of grit to receive a lot of pain while remaining mentally strong and not compromising the finer skills.

All excellent points, but why does everyone keep coming back to the # of professional players for the sport as an indicator of how hard it is to master? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. It's simply a matter of economics. Would it be difficult to add 25 more drivers on an F1 track? Only as a difficult as the size of the race track allows. If the NFL went out and down sized to 10 teams tomorrow, do the players that were cut automatically lose their Football skills? Nope.

With professional sports, the # of participants is determined by completely different barriers. With racing, it's how many cars can you fit on a racetrack at a time. With tennis, it's how many matches can you hold given the # of courts available. That's why baseball, basketball and football keep adding teams every decade or so. As long as they can build new arenas and the fans keep shelling out $$$ to watch all of the teams, they will keep on growing. It has nothing to do with the actual talent level of the players.
 

smitbret

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2006
3,389
23
81
SPORT
1. Boxing
2. Ice Hockey
3. Football
4. Basketball
5. Wrestling
6. Martial Arts
7. Tennis
8. Gymnastics
9. Baseball/Softball
10. Soccer
11. Skiing: Alpine
12. Water Polo
13. Rugby
14. Lacrosse
15. Rodeo: Steer Wrestling

Should be lower. Their are other rodeo events that are more difficult.
 

Jaepheth

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2006
2,572
25
91
I'd say that "mastering" anything is a lifelong pursuit, and so in that respect all skills are equal because it takes equal determination to master chess, cooking, or carpentry as it does to master golf, baseball, or driving.
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
All excellent points, but why does everyone keep coming back to the # of professional players for the sport as an indicator of how hard it is to master? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. It's simply a matter of economics. Would it be difficult to add 25 more drivers on an F1 track? Only as a difficult as the size of the race track allows. If the NFL went out and down sized to 10 teams tomorrow, do the players that were cut automatically lose their Football skills? Nope.

With professional sports, the # of participants is determined by completely different barriers. With racing, it's how many cars can you fit on a racetrack at a time. With tennis, it's how many matches can you hold given the # of courts available. That's why baseball, basketball and football keep adding teams every decade or so. As long as they can build new arenas and the fans keep shelling out $$$ to watch all of the teams, they will keep on growing. It has nothing to do with the actual talent level of the players.

The number of players is relevant if mastered=professional.

Assuming that is the definition (which some may object), a sport like football with 53 players and 32 teams has over 1,500 active professionals. Tennis and Golf in the ~ 100 range. Let's call it 150 for easy numbers.

The bar is much higher in tennis and golf. Put another way, it would be akin to only considering the top 10% professionals (150 of 1,500 pro football players). But as we would consider all NFL athletes "professionals" there is a lower bar to obtain that status.

Putting names to faces, in the NFL there are about 90 QBs in the league (assuming most have 3 on the roster, which not all do). Top 9th best QB (bottom of top 10%) is probably a player like Romo, Rothlesberger, Luck, etc. 3rd stringers (i.e. those at the bottom of the pro category) are players like BJ Daniels, Colt McCoy, Charlie Whitehurst, Curtis Painter, etc.

In tennis only the "equivalent" players like Rodger, Manning, Brees, Brady, Romo, Rothlesberger, Rivers, Manning, Luck, etc even make the 10% cut. All those below (the other 90% of pros) don't even make the cut.

Of course the numbers are even more brutal as I fudged them to 150 vs. 1,500. The NFL is closer to 1,700 and tennis closer to 64 (5%).

Another "demerit" for football I listed relates to this issue. And that is specialization. A player need not master "football" but only one position. Most team sports only require a player master a position.

A single person is more likely to be able to master 1 of 22 positions in football or 1 of 9 in baseball than in golf or tennis where there is only 1 position (and I think tennis is harder as it requires defense).

Of course there is the flip side: Genetics. Very few people under 5'10" play pro football. Very few people under 6'2" play professional basketball. Speed is 90% genetics. IMO only a select cross section of the population has the genetics to master a sport; of those only a small percentage get the nurturing, nutrition, and training required to reach that point. Some sports are very sensitive to certain metrics (height in basketball) which means the majority of the population could never, for practical purposes, master the sport.
 
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