What The F@@@ Do They Want.....Exactly?

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Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Well if absolutely nothing else his father was an immigrant thus was willing to move somewhere else to seek opportunity. If you're not willing to take any action (like leave your dying town to go to where jobs are) then yes the metaphorical "bootstrap pull" won't be so easy. Just expecting your economic prospects to change when you take no other steps to change anything else about your situation is wishful thinking. When you expect to passively have everything done for you then you can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps because you're not wearing any boots.

Pretty much spot on. Old timers would have said he had "gumption" or "drive" to improve his situation.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
Ah, so your argument is more about wealth inequality than cutting people out of some sort of cash flow.



Not sure I believe the article you reported, as there are other articles in the same time frame with significantly different numbers.

See, e.g., http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...-government-employees-outnumber-manufacturing



Then what you are arguing is a non-sequitur. You said we need to stop relying on the government and job creators. The ONLY way you do that is to work for yourself.



Hogwash. Utter hogwash. There is always a job for people who want to work. It might not be a great job, but you can survive. I know first hand because I watched my parents scratch a living from essentially nothing. My dad came to the U.S. with $1:34 in is pocket. Although he was a trained linguistics teacher and a legit polyglot, he was unemployable in the U.S. because no one would recognize his degree (which was from a university in then Czechoslovakia). His solution to that problem was not to rely on the government to create an opportunity for him. He worked initially as a sheet metal stamper in a plant in Chicago. He saved up a little money and then opened a painting and wallpapering business. His business took off because he was hard working, trustworthy, reasonably priced, and reasonably skilled.

People tend to forget that most businesses in the world are not the gigantic brands everyone knows. Most are small businesses where people employ themselves and maybe 3-4 other people. You don't need a ton of cash or a ton of skill to open up a lot of those businesses.

Your argument is just a reiteration of the woe-is-me attitude that so many have today. instead of looking for someone or something else to create an opportunity for you, go out and create one yourself. We used to be a nation of doers. I'm not that old (39) and yet I still understand that point.



And what, exactly is that new way? Hopefully its not just the rehashed version of Marx's Communist Manifesto that many are pushing for these days.
The world has long since moved on from the days when a high school grad was guaranteed a quality job that could support a wife and 2 kids if he just wanted one.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
What many Trump voters seem to want is the same thing a lot of progressives seem to want - wave a magic want and we magically return to the conditions that existed in the 1950s.

Bullshit. The only shared nostalgia is for Union pay, benefits & retirement plans. Conservatives somehow manage to think they can have that w/o Unions. They seem to think we can stabilize the financial sector w/o regulations & that guys like Trump will assume civic responsibility w/o the coercion of taxes. They seem to want all kinds of stuff they're not willing for anybody to pay for, as well, like roads, schools, emergency services, clean water, safe food & drugs, public lands, you name it.

They don't seem to realize how far income sourcing has shifted from work to investment or how human labor isn't as necessary as it once was.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Bullshit. The only shared nostalgia is for Union pay, benefits & retirement plans. Conservatives somehow manage to think they can have that w/o Unions. They seem to think we can stabilize the financial sector w/o regulations & that guys like Trump will assume civic responsibility w/o the coercion of taxes. They seem to want all kinds of stuff they're not willing for anybody to pay for, as well, like roads, schools, emergency services, clean water, safe food & drugs, public lands, you name it.

They don't seem to realize how far income sourcing has shifted from work to investment or how human labor isn't as necessary as it once was.

To get that "stuff" we don't need unions and we sure as hell don't need the insane increases on taxes for the rich that completely dominate your political viewpoint. The boogeyman of "trickle down economics" has become your white whale that you chase like some modern day Captain Ahab.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
You've merely told us what Trump voters don't want which dodges the question of what they do want. So what is it they want?

Your question implies that these sorts of Trump voters want some sort of exact policy or change in government. Like they took a rational view of their situation, read Trump's website, and said "this guy is the politician for my issues." Everything we know about them tells us that isn't the case.

These Trump voters got what they wanted - Trump as a leader.

To someone who doesn't view the world as they do their reasons for supporting Trump this whole time seemed like contradictions. "Unlike most politicians he says what is on his mind." (when asked about some horrible thing he said) "Oh he doesn't mean what he says." To someone who approaches politics rationally, ie "this overeducated policy wonk agrees with my position on this set of issues, while this out-of-touch policy wonk doesn't," the decisions behind a Trump vote seem like madness. But there is no contraction, only a lack of understanding on the part of those who don't vote based on emotion.

These people don't want specific policies or plans, because decades of the best plans and promises of career politicians have failed them. Instead they put their faith in his personality and Trump's background as someone who is a winner in the global economy (or appears that way at least).

These people LIKE that he says offensive stuff even if they don't like the particulars. Not because they dislike women or Mexicans or whoever, but because Trump isn't allowing ANYONE- especially the PC warriors in the media- to control him or his statements. What are offensive comments to a CNN anchor is refreshing candor to a coal miner who hears comments 20 times as offensive down in the mine with the other dudes everyday. To that miner the world of media elites that want to shame him and his coworkers for their comments and opinions is as big of a threat to their way of life as any factory in China or Mexico.

These people maybe were served well by Obama's policy, but they never liked his disposition or the fact he refused to rock the boat internationally. They want someone who at least will talk tough to allies and enemies alike, because they feel (rightly or wrongly) that entire world has become addicted to the free (to them) stability the US provides internationally. They reject Obama's vision that the whole world can all rise together and that its not a null sum game, because their own boat only sinks as other's rise. They don't like the fact that the media elites who define what is acceptable discourse create a treadmill of "proper" language with few carrots (in their eyes because they aren't gay, women or transgendered) and lots of sticks (the way PC jargon is militantly enforced especially on college campuses). They don't like being labeled as the group (white undereducated male) that is the reason for so many problems in America when they were raised to think that the average American yeoman and his work ethic is what made this country great.

So they voted for Trump not based on his vision of what American COULD be (like Obama voters did in 08), but instead because Trump expresses their opinion about what America SHOULD be- aka a world power that puts the interest of its people before the interest of multinational corporations and banks that own all the other politicians. Right or wrong they knew what they wanted and they got it.
 
Reactions: agent00f

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
To get that "stuff" we don't need unions and we sure as hell don't need the insane increases on taxes for the rich that completely dominate your political viewpoint. The boogeyman of "trickle down economics" has become your white whale that you chase like some modern day Captain Ahab.



Well, if we don't need Unions to get higher pay & better benefits, a larger share of national income, why don't we have those things today after the demise of unions in the 80's?

Given the shift in source of income from work to investment, how do people who have little to no capital to invest get a larger share if not through taxes & redistribution?

The real answer is that they don't.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
But there is no contraction, only a lack of understanding on the part of those who don't vote based on emotion.

Having dug that out of the gobbledegook, what you're saying is that Trump voters did so for the feelz, that it doesn't actually make sense at all. Trump makes their putter flutter & that's reason enough when choosing the leader of the Free World.

I never doubted that for a moment.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Your question implies that these sorts of Trump voters want some sort of exact policy or change in government. Like they took a rational view of their situation, read Trump's website, and said "this guy is the politician for my issues." Everything we know about them tells us that isn't the case.

These Trump voters got what they wanted - Trump as a leader.

To someone who doesn't view the world as they do their reasons for supporting Trump this whole time seemed like contradictions. "Unlike most politicians he says what is on his mind." (when asked about some horrible thing he said) "Oh he doesn't mean what he says." To someone who approaches politics rationally, ie "this overeducated policy wonk agrees with my position on this set of issues, while this out-of-touch policy wonk doesn't," the decisions behind a Trump vote seem like madness. But there is no contraction, only a lack of understanding on the part of those who don't vote based on emotion.

These people don't want specific policies or plans, because decades of the best plans and promises of career politicians have failed them. Instead they put their faith in his personality and Trump's background as someone who is a winner in the global economy (or appears that way at least).

These people LIKE that he says offensive stuff even if they don't like the particulars. Not because they dislike women or Mexicans or whoever, but because Trump isn't allowing ANYONE- especially the PC warriors in the media- to control him or his statements. What are offensive comments to a CNN anchor is refreshing candor to a coal miner who hears comments 20 times as offensive down in the mine with the other dudes everyday. To that miner the world of media elites that want to shame him and his coworkers for their comments and opinions is as big of a threat to their way of life as any factory in China or Mexico.

These people maybe were served well by Obama's policy, but they never liked his disposition or the fact he refused to rock the boat internationally. They want someone who at least will talk tough to allies and enemies alike, because they feel (rightly or wrongly) that entire world has become addicted to the free (to them) stability the US provides internationally. They reject Obama's vision that the whole world can all rise together and that its not a null sum game, because their own boat only sinks as other's rise. They don't like the fact that the media elites who define what is acceptable discourse create a treadmill of "proper" language with few carrots (in their eyes because they aren't gay, women or transgendered) and lots of sticks (the way PC jargon is militantly enforced especially on college campuses). They don't like being labeled as the group (white undereducated male) that is the reason for so many problems in America when they were raised to think that the average American yeoman and his work ethic is what made this country great.

So they voted for Trump not based on his vision of what American COULD be (like Obama voters did in 08), but instead because Trump expresses their opinion about what America SHOULD be- aka a world power that puts the interest of its people before the interest of multinational corporations and banks that own all the other politicians. Right or wrong they knew what they wanted and they got it.

This is a good post, but I can't emphasize enough that the core of his support is not from downtrodden people, but rather the ones who want to remain a bit higher on the totem than the actual downtrodden.

Well, if we don't need Unions to get higher pay & better benefits, a larger share of national income, why don't we have those things today after the demise of unions in the 80's?

Given the shift in source of income from work to investment, how do people who have little to no capital to invest get a larger share if not through taxes & redistribution?

The real answer is that they don't.

Regretably Glenn1 and fellow temporarily embarrassed capitalists don't how that system works in effect. To be clear, they actually know how it works to some degree given their comments on this thread, but they're compelled to lie about it because they're told that's keeps libtards out of office.

For example, they're forced out to the city to find decent work, but damn if they're going let them edumacated city folk tell'em how them jobs came out.
 
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