What Was the Point/Effect of Mantle?

[poofyhairguy]

So now that Mantle is going away, what was the point?

I mean, I get that the idea was to bring AMD's console optimizations to the PC but even they couldn't have hoped that it would be used in more than a few games.

So why did they do it? And was it a success by that reason?

 

[Flapdrol1337]

It'd move a lot of the optimisation work from amd to the game developers, give better performance overall, and give them an advantage over nvidia.

with dx12 they'll still have the first 2 benefits.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The point was to sell AMD cards. The effect entirely different.

 

[Stuka87]

Mantle is not going away. They are working on Mantle 2.0, and as I recall it will end up on Linux as well.

But Mantle was a very important stepping stone on the path to DX12. It gave developers a chance to use an API that is extremely similar in implementation to DX12. It allowed them to find bugs and architectural issues long before DX12 was released. While DX12 is technically different from Mantle, to say that Mantle had zero influence on DX12 would be extremely short sighted.

Yes it also gave them some marketing hype for sure. And they certainly pushed that. But it also helped consumers. BF4 was unplayable for me on my old system because all four cores on the CPU would be pegged out. With mantle, I got literally double the frame rates compared to DX11.

 

[poofyhairguy]

But it also helped consumers. BF4 was unplayable for me on my old system because all four cores on the CPU would be pegged out. With mantle, I got literally double the frame rates compared to DX11.

I thought Mantle had a limited effect, like 10%-40%. Double would be huge.

 

[Ramses]

I thought Mantle had a limited effect, like 10%-40%. Double would be huge.

My experience with mantle was that it was a bit of a bandaid, sometimes for software, sometimes for hardware, depending. I suspect it's effect in both cases is greater the more ideally disadvantaged ones gaming setup is.
In any case it seems to have a positive effect, especially for such a relatively new tech. Positive enough to be emulated apparently, which might well still be the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Spjut]

But Mantle was a very important stepping stone on the path to DX12. It gave developers a chance to use an API that is extremely similar in implementation to DX12. It allowed them to find bugs and architectural issues long before DX12 was released. While DX12 is technically different from Mantle, to say that Mantle had zero influence on DX12 would be extremely short sighted.

Microsoft was obviously working on DX12 before AMD announced Mantle.

Microsoft officially announced DX12 six months after Mantle, showing off a DX12 demo of Forza running on Nvidia hardware. DX12 also requires WDDM 2.0.
Microsoft and Nvidia couldn't have done all that in just six months.

I thought Mantle had a limited effect, like 10%-40%. Double would be huge.

Mantle's largest gains were shown on slow/old CPUs. Or high-end Crossfire systems.

We never got a "true" Mantle game. All games were originally created for DX11 and its limitations.

 

[poofyhairguy]

We never got a "true" Mantle game. All games were originally created for DX11 and its limitations.

That doesn't make sense to me. Isn't Mantle basically the API for one if not both consoles? Therefore should a console port be a natural candidate for Mantle, built for Mantle?

 

[Spjut]

That doesn't make sense to me. Isn't Mantle basically the API for one if not both consoles? Therefore should a console port be a natural candidate for Mantle, built for Mantle?

Consoles don't use Mantle. PS4's low-level API is called LibGNM and the Xbox One uses a special DirectX version

 

[Noctifer616]

That doesn't make sense to me. Isn't Mantle basically the API for one if not both consoles? Therefore should a console port be a natural candidate for Mantle, built for Mantle?

Nope. Mantle doesn't run on consoles. Also, not all features on consoles that can work with Mantle are ported over. On the PS4 BF4 supports asynchronous compute, on PC using Mantle it doesn't.

Mantle can have massive benefits in games, but only if the game uses all it's features and really exploits the massive draw call advantage. However, most games are not designed that way and it will take a while before we see true games that make use of Mantle/Vulkan/DirectX 12.

Ashes of the Singularity might be one of those games. It's by the guys that made Staw Swarm.

 

[destrekor]

Consoles don't use Mantle. PS4's low-level API is called LibGNM and the Xbox One uses a special DirectX version

I think it was said that AMD had extensive hands-on with the console APIs, and had learned a heck of a lot working with Microsoft on the customizations on their console DX. The XBONE API is basically a special version of the 11_3 feature level, which is why DX 12 isn't going to bring a significant boost to the XBONE as it will to consoles.

And Mantle came to be due to DICE pushing strongly for such an API, and AMD saw it as a good opportunity. So together they used what a developer wanted with the experience AMD gained working on lower-level features. And there is nothing to say that DICE's push hadn't occurred prior to, or during the development of the XBONE's DX API, and perhaps was part of what helped drive the specific features within that API. I don't know if they did or not.

But it is highly likely that Mantle development began prior to DX 12 development, because it was DICE that wanted a significant change to the arena, and otherwise would have known DX12 was happening as they are a major developer that would be partnered with Microsoft for developmental feedback.

Due to that, it is quite likely that AMD had brought a lot to the table during early DX 12 development and during the setting of design goals. The manufacturers ARE very much involved in the process, so this is a likely proposition.

AMD wouldn't be afraid of getting DX12 out to the masses to "compete" with Mantle, because I highly doubt AMD nor DICE would have wanted a custom API battle between different manufacturers. This, based on how it developed, really seems like more of a push to the industry, so they got something out there as a stepping stone, and encouraged the industry partners to pursue the route on the universal stage.

Mantle wasn't ever about AMD-specific feature set for marketing/market share, it seems foolish to have positioned it in such a way. It was about advancing the industry. Thus, their having contributed Mantle to Kronos's Vulkan API so that much of what made Mantle what it is has found its way into an open-source multi-platform low-level API. And again, it's quite likely some of Mantle, or at least the overall concept of the code, found its way into DirectX with AMD and Nvidia working together with Microsoft.

 

[Genx87]

Offered us a preview into how little developers will put into a game to optimize it. Also a reminder that vendor specific APIs on graphics hardware is not ideal and why it died out in the late 1990s.

For AMD it was an attempt to generate buzz about their products and sell low end CPUs. Both of which over time has done nothing to help their bottom line.

 

[gamervivek]

 

[.vodka]

That can't be a mere coincidence.

 

[Pottuvoi]

This.

Mantle had a positive force to drive low level APIs back to PC systems.

 

[Erenhardt]

Linux and steamboxes...

 

[Granseth]

I would guess Vulcan being one of the most important effects of Mantle
https://www.khronos.org/vulkan

 

[HurleyBird]

Wow, I guess that basically confirms that DX12 is just modified Mantle, same as Vulcan.

 

[soccerballtux]

That can't be a mere coincidence.

I think AMD should have kept it under wraps, not released any details, and written good DRM to prevent decompiling, to keep Nvidia and Microsoft out of the loop, so that we'd have a huge reason to buy AMD.

 

[destrekor]

I think AMD should have kept it under wraps, not released any details, and written good DRM to prevent decompiling, to keep Nvidia and Microsoft out of the loop, so that we'd have a huge reason to buy AMD.

Um.. this isn't evidence of trade secrets leaking out or being copied by the competitors, this is evidence of AMD directly contributing to the efforts.

AMD fully understood the risks of trying to create a vendor-specific API, because that era of PC gaming was a mess, and going forward that would not have created any lasting benefit for AMD. On the contrary, it was developed to kick-start development of low-level APIs across the board, and it seems that both of the vendor-neutral APIs we will be receiving have direct lineage in Mantle.

AMD made that happen, it isn't an example of Microsoft or Nvidia trying to capitalize on AMD's mistakes in locking down the code.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Mantle is not going away. They are working on Mantle 2.0, and as I recall it will end up on Linux as well.

I want Linux to become a decent gaming platform. Hope you are right.

 

[destrekor]

I want Linux to become a decent gaming platform. Hope you are right.

This "Mantle 2.0" is actually Vulkan, and yes, it will be a big hit on Linux, this seems all but guaranteed.

Valve is putting a big push behind SteamOS gaming, which is a Linux platform. And they are putting a big push behind Vulkan, announcing plans to completely take up development with Vulkan, with Source Engine 2 utilizing that API.

Linux gaming will be receiving a huge boost in developer support thanks to Vulkan and Valve/Steam.

 

[SirPauly]

Mantle was a good idea because it created some goodness for AMD customers, CPU, APU and GPU, and more importantly, create more awareness and competition to help move the industry forward.

Mantle was very welcomed over-all.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Huh? I spend a lot of time dealing with HRESULTs and such. This sounds like the basic definition of an API. 0=S_OK or whatever, and then you have other results which also can mean things are fine...and then you have real errors. Windows has long been able to recover a hung GPU.

Microsoft didn't copy Mantle...

 

[poofyhairguy]

Consoles don't use Mantle. PS4's low-level API is called LibGNM and the Xbox One uses a special DirectX version

I thought the Xbox One's "special Directx" was VERY close to Mantle?

Here is where I got that from:

What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material, is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place.

Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

That would also explain the Mantle-Directx 12 connection, as AMD and MS developed the technologies together first for the Xbox One.

I could be operating on old info though, Ryan posted that back in 2013.