What will be AMD'S next Move?

[tviceman]

I hope so. The 980 is a full chip so if AMD delivers some sort of halo card maybe it will force out a gm200 on 28nm if they have one waiting in the wings and we can get a 780ti upgrade from both vendors and not see another $1000 card as the first big die geforce for Maxwell.

I don't see GM200 on 28nm being the leap that GK110 was over GF110. There just isn't enough die space left. I think we'll get 35% more performance than GTX980 in a Titan Maxwell version, and 20% more performance than GTX980 in a GM200 based GTX980 TI version.

I'd expect GTX 980 TI to be $250 more than GTX 980 since GTX 980 is $220 more than GTX 970. Hopefully GTX 980 will have dropped to $500 or lower by then.

 

[f1sherman]

What else would he say? "You're right. We completely lost this round"???? He's basically AMD's biggest cheerleader and he has to act like it at all times.

No.
The best comeback would be something like what they used when Nvidia unopposedly ruled the better part of 2013. on high-end with Titan/780:

Those products are based on server chip GK110. That's not even a graphics card. Nothing to worry.

 

[tollingalong]

And the 770 looked like a rip-off compared to the 760. That it was a better value than the 770 didn't say much.
It was recommendable that if you were going above 760 to hit a 290. But the 290's price didn't compress everything beneath it like a $329 970 does.

The 290 was the entry to the high end for about $200 - $300. With coupon stacking/deals/2nd hand cards you'd get something that rivals the higher end cards with cost up to 2X as much.

The 970 simply took over that role now. I bought one and recommend the 970 over the 290 now. Give credit where it's due like Silverforce11 stated: the 290 was THE bang for the buck last generation.

 

[tollingalong]

I don't see GM200 on 28nm being the leap that GK110 was over GF110. There just isn't enough die space left. I think we'll get 35% more performance than GTX980 in a Titan Maxwell version, and 20% more performance than GTX980 in a GM200 based GTX980 TI version.

I'd expect GTX 980 TI to be $250 more than GTX 980 since GTX 980 is $220 more than GTX 970. Hopefully GTX 980 will have dropped to $500 or lower by then.

Agreed on the 1st paragraph. 2nd paragraph not so much. $800-$900 would be more of a Titan II level price.

 

[Silverforce11]

The difference is that Nvidia had all sorts of room to lower prices on the 770. It was a much smaller chip, strapped with half the vram and a less complex PCB. How much room is left to price the r9 290? Can a 440 mm^2 chip that consumes high amounts of power and is strapped with 4gb of vram sell for $250 and make any appreciable amount of money? Even at $250, is it attractive enough to chose it over the gtx 970 when the extra $80 in cost will get additonal DX12 features, higher efficiency, and higher performance?

At $250 it would easily justify itself. Your features are a wash, since no games now or soon will be DX12 nor is DX12 even released anytime soon. By the time DX12 games are common, everything now is pointless. 4K x 3 might make sense if QUAD SLI scaled but really, how many people go for that setup?

A custom R290 @ $250 is very attractive as it offers R290X level performance, and would be as fast/faster out of the box as the 970, ~230W vs ~170W so the power difference isn't massive. Certainly the 970 is a better card, but not ~35% more expensive better.

The problem is I also don't think there's much profit to be made selling such a complex card at $250, if at all profitable.

 

[Grooveriding]

I don't see GM200 on 28nm being the leap that GK110 was over GF110. There just isn't enough die space left. I think we'll get 35% more performance than GTX980 in a Titan Maxwell version, and 20% more performance than GTX980 in a GM200 based GTX980 TI version.

I'd expect GTX 980 TI to be $250 more than GTX 980 since GTX 980 is $220 more than GTX 970. Hopefully GTX 980 will have dropped to $500 or lower by then.

35% is about right. They can add another 40% die space from gm204 to bring it to gk110 size. I think it's a certainty we will see this because there is no new process available to them for a long while.

 

[3DVagabond]

35% is about right. They can add another 40% die space from gm204 to bring it to gk110 size. I think it's a certainty we will see this because there is no new process available to them for a long while.

We're likely to see yet another bigger chip from both companies on 28nm. I'd love it not to be that way, but it is what it is.

 

[Silverforce11]

The 290 was the entry to the high end for about $200 - $300. With coupon stacking/deals/2nd hand cards you'd get something that rivals the higher end cards with cost up to 2X as much.

The 970 simply took over that role now. I bought one and recommend the 970 over the 290 now. Give credit where it's due like Silverforce11 stated: the 290 was THE bang for the buck last generation.

290 was a great deal, but most NV fans here and IRL did not bite. Here, the 780s are often $100 to $150 more expensive than custom (Tri-X, PCS, MSI Gaming models) R290s for a long time, and retailers I know still sold much more 780s.

This is the problem AMD faces.

 

[tviceman]

Agreed on the 1st paragraph. 2nd paragraph not so much. $800-$900 would be more of a Titan II level price.

I think $650-750 would be the introductory price of gtx 980 TI. Titan II would be, of course, $1,000.

 

[Paul98]

290 was a great deal, but most NV fans here and IRL did not bite. Here, the 780s are often $100 to $150 more expensive than custom (Tri-X, PCS, MSI Gaming models) R290s for a long time, and retailers I know still sold much more 780s.

This is the problem AMD faces.

Yeah people are stupid, you must lead the ignorant masses.

 

[tviceman]

No.
The best comeback would be something like what they used when Nvidia unopposedly ruled the better part of 2013. on high-end with Titan/780:

Those products are based on server chip GK110. That's not even a graphics card. Nothing to worry.

:/

 

[DominionSeraph]

The 290 was the entry to the high end for about $200 - $300. With coupon stacking/deals/2nd hand cards you'd get something that rivals the higher end cards with cost up to 2X as much.

Oh, so you're telling me that if you can find a deal on used hardware, it's a deal? Wow, thank you for telling me that X=X. I never would have figured that out otherwise.

There's an i5 750 sitting in FS/FT for $70 and two unlocked 6950's for $70 each. Doesn't mean I can recommend to everyone to get an i5 750 and unlocked 6950's.

 

[x3sphere]

The 290 was the entry to the high end for about $200 - $300. With coupon stacking/deals/2nd hand cards you'd get something that rivals the higher end cards with cost up to 2X as much.

The 970 simply took over that role now. I bought one and recommend the 970 over the 290 now. Give credit where it's due like Silverforce11 stated: the 290 was THE bang for the buck last generation.

R9 290 was never anywhere near $200-250. Most models with non-ref coolers are $400+. GTX970 brings the performance to an entirely different price class.

Used sure you can get a good deal on them but most people don't buy used.

 

[Abwx]

A custom R290 @ $250 is very attractive

Perfs wise it is better than a regular 970, so even at same price there will be no problems..

That s the reality of numbers, you have the regular R series in quiet mode as comparison, the 290X Tri X OC is clocked at no more than 1040, the 290 tri X OCX at 1000, look like the perf/watt brouhaha is a convenient cover to not highlight stagnating perfs.

 

[Silverforce11]

If a custom R290 is ~= to a 970, it has to be cheaper due to its worse perf/w & AMD doesn't get to do the "NV tax", I'd say ~$275 is fair, as that is really entering the mid-range prices and would be attractive for lots of gamers.

 

[Abwx]

If a custom R290 is ~= to a 970, it has to be cheaper due to its worse perf/w & AMD doesn't get to do the "NV tax", I'd say ~$275 is fair, as that is really entering the mid-range prices and would be attractive for lots of gamers.

Funny that perf was everything and perf/watt wasnt an issue at all when, well, you did understand what i m talking about.

People are buying perf first and perf watt in second position, eventualy, the impact on the system power comsumption is 20% at most, less with said Sapphire cards.

 

[DominionSeraph]

People are buying perf first and perf watt in second position,

Sure, that's why the 5830 and GTX 465 were such great cards!

 

[ams23]

No it's wholly accurate as I was only giving examples of deferred games.

Again, what you said is wrong and shows a lack of understanding about Maxwell's new programmable sampling patterns. To quote the overclockersclub review:

"Multi Frame Sampled AA or MFAA: "Game developers and GPU vendors are increasingly implementing more advanced forms of anti-aliasing (AA) to enhance image quality. GM2xx GPUs have a number of new features for much more flexible sampling, enabling further advancements in AA quality and efficiency. Today’s GPUs ship with fixed sample patterns for AA that are stored in ROM. When gamers select 2x or 4xMSAA for example, the pre-stored sample patterns are used. While many current games implement deferred, post-processed AA techniques such as FXAA or SMAA, there are still many others that continue to use traditional hardware-based multi-sample AA (MSAA). GM2xx GPUs support multi-pixel programmable sampling for rasterization, providing opportunities for more flexible and novel AA techniques to be implemented in the context of both deferred and conventional forward rendering."

"With programmable sample positions, the ROMs that were used to store the standard sample positions are replaced with RAMs. The RAMs may be programmed with the standard patterns, but the driver or application may also load the RAMs with custom positions which are free to vary from frame to frame or even within a frame. In a 16x16 grid per pixel, we have 256 different locations to choose from for each sample. We’ve also extended this programmable sample location support to span multiple pixels, so for example in 4x MSAA rendering, all 16 samples within a 2x2 pixel footprint can be located arbitrarily. This sample randomization can greatly reduce the quantization artifacts (like stair-stepping) that occur with more traditional forms of AA. These freely specified sampling positions may be used in the development of effective new algorithms."

"NVIDIA engineers have recently developed new AA algorithms that vary, in interleaved fashion, the sample patterns used per pixel either spatially in a single frame (where, for example, each successive pixel uses one of four different 4xAA sample patterns) or interleaved across multiple frames in time. Multi-Frame Sampled AA (MFAA) is a new AA technique that alternates AA sample patterns both temporally and spatially to produce the best image quality while still offering a performance advantage compared to traditional MSAA. The final result can deliver image quality approaching that of 8xAA at roughly the cost of 4xAA, or 4xAA quality at roughly the cost of 2xAA. Below we have a few images that show 4XMSAA implemented in BF4 and on the right the same scene with MFAA enabled."

My guess is availability will become similar to TXAA and be something we see implemented in TWIMTPB games that choose to support it.

Wrong again. TXAA requires specific game engine support to work. MFAA does not have that requirement at all. And just FYI, MFAA works in Battlefield 4 too (among likely dozens and dozens of other games too).

 

[x3sphere]

Funny that perf was everything and perf/watt wasnt an issue at all when, well, you did understand what i m talking about.

People are buying perf first and perf watt in second position, eventualy, the impact on the system power comsumption is 20% at most, less with said Sapphire cards.

Nvidia have a superior ecosystem and the Maxwell GPUs support HDMI 2.0 (very important if you plan on getting a 4K TV at some point). I could not recommend an R9 290 at the same price point as a 970 for that alone.

$200 for the 290 and $250 for 290X is what I feel AMD needs to drop to in order to stay competitive at this point. That's what these cards are going for used now. It probably won't happen though. Hawaii is a big die and I don't think they can afford to slash prices to those levels.

 

[SimianR]

Nvidia have a superior ecosystem and the Maxwell GPUs support HDMI 2.0 (very important if you plan on getting a 4K TV at some point). I could not recommend an R9 290 at the same price point as a 970 for that alone.

$200 for the 290 and $250 for 290X is what I feel AMD needs to drop to in order to stay competitive at this point. That's what these cards are going for used now. It probably won't happen though. Hawaii is a big die and I don't think they can afford to slash prices to those levels.

The R9 290 and 290X are worth much more than $200 and $250 though. $250 for a 290 is a steal, especially for the level of performance the card provides. I actually think that the 290 and 290X should be a little closer in pricing since there's very little performance difference between them. $279 and $299 makes sense to me. As much as everyone on here is raving about the efficiency of maxwell and going on about nvidia's endless list of "features" at the end of the day there are a lot of people out there that just want to play games without having to compromise on image quality or worry about performance issues. I doubt that the vast majority of pc gamers are playing battlefield 4 and looking nervously at a killawat to make sure their GPU isn't pulling too much power I'm not trying to take away from Maxwell here, I'm just saying that I think this it's given much more importance on these forums than the vast majority of gamers actually care about.

 

[Grooveriding]

snip

You totally ignored what I specifically linked and quoted and went off on a tear there.

 

[escrow4]

290 was a great deal, but most NV fans here and IRL did not bite. Here, the 780s are often $100 to $150 more expensive than custom (Tri-X, PCS, MSI Gaming models) R290s for a long time, and retailers I know still sold much more 780s.

This is the problem AMD faces.

Indeed. And I won't touch AMD GPUs again until they are on par with Nvidia.

 

[ams23]

You totally ignored what I specifically linked and quoted and went off on a tear there.

Well your original statement was simply wrong. MFAA works in Crysis 3, BF4, Metro LL, and Watch Dogs (among many others)! Some game examples are listed in the slide below:

 

[x3sphere]

Indeed. And I won't touch AMD GPUs again until they are on par with Nvidia.

Yep. AMD needs to push additional features more. The DSR feature Nvidia recently implemented is something AMD could have beat them to, and it would have been ideal for the R9 290 series since it came equipped with more VRAM over the GeForce equivalents at the time.

 

[Grooveriding]

snip

Need to go back and give yourself some time and read it slowly.