What would it take for you to believe in God?

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Alone
Nothing short of Him coming down and saying "hey" and filling my pockets with gold.

I don't even need the gold. I want the son of a bitch to show up and explain the killing, raping, pedophilia, torture and wars that his followers claim were done for him, in his name and with his approval,

?I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.? - Gandhi

Let's say God exists. Why would we blame the issues on him?

Just for the record: I'm not calling out Christians or anything... I think the basic premise can be applied to many other religions.

There's this funny thing called free will to explain the "issues" and who is to say anything in the past has been done "with his approval"?

I'm a believer myself, but I still wrestle with the question of creation (not of the earth, but just in general). What I mean to say is that something just doesn't logically come from nothing spontaneously, which is why I still can't wrap my head around God having no beginning.

 

[engineereeyore]

I think you need to differentiate between 'believe in God' and 'follow God'. Consider the Jew during the time of Moses and all the miracles they saw. It'd be rather difficult to put up a case saying they didn't 'believe in God', but fairly easy to say they didn't 'follow God'.

JMO, but so-called 'miracles' are rarely ever enough to convince people to follow God. Eventually, they'll find a way to justify that action as being something other than from God. At least in my experience, I've never heard of or seen a miracle powerful enough to create faith. I've only seen them as a result of faith.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Alone
Nothing short of Him coming down and saying "hey" and filling my pockets with gold.

I don't even need the gold. I want the son of a bitch to show up and explain the killing, raping, pedophilia, torture and wars that his followers claim were done for him, in his name and with his approval,

?I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.? - Gandhi

Let's say God exists. Why would we blame the issues on him?

Just for the record: I'm not calling out Christians or anything... I think the basic premise can be applied to many other religions.

There's this funny thing called free will to explain the "issues" and who is to say anything in the past has been done "with his approval"?

I'm a believer myself, but I still wrestle with the question of creation (not of the earth, but just in general). What I mean to say is that something just doesn't logically come from nothing spontaneously, which is why I still can't wrap my head around God having no beginning.

If you could understand God, or explain Him fully, He would not be God. There are just some things about God that we can only learn through the metaphors (shadows of the real things) He has given us in this world, and there are some things that we cannot comprehend (like His infinite nature, omnipresence, omnipotence, etc.). His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and His ways are higher than our ways.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." .

Thats pretty hilarious. This is a perfect example of how people can sound so authoritative and yet spread nothing but deceit on the net.

Jesus is derived from Joshua, which means Jehovah saves, not, LOL, "jew god". The first Joshua recorded in the OT book of the same name lived around (I wanna say 800BC, but it could be earlier) and predates the Greeks you speak of.

Jesus of Nazareth was Yeshua bar Yusef al Natz'rat. Joshua, the successor to Moses, lived around 1200-1000 BC. Yeah, I know all that. Paul preached to the Greeks and Peter to the Romans though. You wanna explain my "deceit"?

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: Mr Pepper
It would take about the same amount of convincing as believing gravity exists.

God will be God whether we like it not. Comprehension is not a requisite for existence. It would be insane to put your faith in something you can grasp. If you could grasp it, you would be either equal to, or greater than it. I hope we have better sense than to put faith in any thing that humanity has to offer.

Men are responsible for the grizzly acts of cowardice and barbarism we see every day, not God. The amazing thing is that He still chooses to pursue us and love us regardless. If you can't see Him, just open your eyes.

Maybe, but men have done and are currently doing many grizzly acts in his name. If there were no god, the only reason they could present was that they wanted power. In which case they would have only a few followers.

No argument there. Saying you are a "follower" and being one, are two different animals. Doing something in another's name is often times a way of doing what you want, and saying you are doing it for someone else. And even so, it's another good lesson that religion is not the answer, God is.

Case in point: What if the terrorists didn't have Allah? A good majority of them think they are fighting a holy nationalistic war against the oppressive US, and believe they will go to heaven for dying in battle. Now what would happen if they didn't think they were going to heaven. Would there be as many terrorists? Probably not.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Crono
"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. " - Romans 1:18-32

Sentencing an awful lot of people to death there, bub. Way to show your love for your fellow man :heart:

It's from God's Word. If you don't believe it, then its irrelevant. If you do, you need to seek to reconcile with it.

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Crono
"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. " - Romans 1:18-32

Sentencing an awful lot of people to death there, bub. Way to show your love for your fellow man :heart:

No, those people are sentencing themselves to death by rejecting Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Tuktuk
Let them stay sane then. Where is the problem in that? What is your argument?

I have the feeling you're going to start into claiming God cannot exist for reasons X, Y, and Z. Atheists sound so logical in their arguments, but fail to see that their argument is just as a silly as a believer's. The truth is none of us is capable of knowing whether or not God exists, and those who take a side do so for personal reasons but must remember always that their word is not final.

My argument is that there's a different side to every coin. I am simply questioning, and hopefully making you question as well, the foundation of your previous assertion that God has a sense of humor. It arose when I read the statement "God has a sense of humor" when in fact too much of the world should not be considered humorous, and to humor someone while at the same time ignoring other atrocities seems decidedly un-characteristic of a supposedly supremely-benevolent being.

I think that you'd be interested to know that I am in fact a theist. I just strongly disagree with many of the "philosophies" of other God-believers.

In the end, what do we as human beings have to fall back on other than our rationality and free will? These are supposedly God-given attributes, right? I see absolutely no reason then to use these gifts to intelligently and to constantly question our world and our existence. I feel that God would highly regard those who think hard and constantly about their world and existence, regardless of whether they believe in him or not.

"I am God. I admit that I am mysterious to every human being. There are those who follow me without question. Then there are those who think, who try their damnest to find the truth in the world, who question everything and who keep an open mind. They are using their sentience and limited intelligence to make the best with what they've got. How can I fault them for questioning such things, even if ultimately they come to the wrong conclusion when they die?"

Thinking is not a sin.

Awesome point about thinking. From Jesus himself...

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you don't question your beliefs, then I think you're shortchanging both yourself and God. Also, neighbor means everyone that's not you; not just your actual next door neighbor.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Crono
"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. " - Romans 1:18-32

Sentencing an awful lot of people to death there, bub. Way to show your love for your fellow man :heart:

No, those people are sentencing themselves to death by rejecting Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

See my above post

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: Golgatha
There's this funny thing called free will to explain the "issues" and who is to say anything in the past has been done "with his approval"?

I'm a believer myself, but I still wrestle with the question of creation (not of the earth, but just in general). What I mean to say is that something just doesn't logically come from nothing spontaneously, which is why I still can't wrap my head around God having no beginning.

Can't say where as I'd blame you. I've always interpreted those verses as meaning not that he never had a creation, but that we can't comprehend such a time.

Consider it like this. If I told a 32-bit computer that I was more than ~4 billion minutes old, would it be able to handle it? No. If God actually told you he was 680,000 trillion years old, would that help? Plus, what is a year to him? We know what it is to us, but as we know the Earth came after God, what was a year prior to the Earth?

That's my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree, but I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." .

Thats pretty hilarious. This is a perfect example of how people can sound so authoritative and yet spread nothing but deceit on the net.

Jesus is derived from Joshua, which means Jehovah saves, not, LOL, "jew god". The first Joshua recorded in the OT book of the same name lived around (I wanna say 800BC, but it could be earlier) and predates the Greeks you speak of.

Jesus of Nazareth was Yeshua bar Yusef al Natz'rat. Joshua, the successor to Moses, lived around 1200-1000 BC. Yeah, I know all that. Paul preached to the Greeks and Peter to the Romans though. You wanna explain my "deceit"?

Yes. What do you mean by "It was the Greeks who gave us Jesus Christ"?

Also, please explain why you clain the origin of "Jesus" is "Jew God" when it clearly is "Jehovah saves".

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Golgatha
Awesome point about thinking. From Jesus himself...

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you don't question your beliefs, then I think you're shortchanging both yourself and God. Also, neighbor means everyone that's not you; not just your actual next door neighbor.

Word. As a non christian, that's always struck me as the most important part of the Bible.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." .

Thats pretty hilarious. This is a perfect example of how people can sound so authoritative and yet spread nothing but deceit on the net.

Jesus is derived from Joshua, which means Jehovah saves, not, LOL, "jew god". The first Joshua recorded in the OT book of the same name lived around (I wanna say 800BC, but it could be earlier) and predates the Greeks you speak of.

Jesus of Nazareth was Yeshua bar Yusef al Natz'rat. Joshua, the successor to Moses, lived around 1200-1000 BC. Yeah, I know all that. Paul preached to the Greeks and Peter to the Romans though. You wanna explain my "deceit"?

Yes. What do you mean by "It was the Greeks who gave us Jesus Christ"?

Also, please explain why you clain the origin of "Jesus" is "Jew God" when it clearly is "Jehovah saves".

In case you missed it in Sunday School, Jesus was a Jew. Christianity is a Greek religion. Yes, the latter is derived from the former, but by the time of the Romans, Constantine, and then Augustine, the faith bore only passing resemblence to that actually taught by Jesus.
For one thing, this divinity of Jesus. I was referring to Almighty God the Father as being Yah-Zeus.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Golgatha
Awesome point about thinking. From Jesus himself...

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If you don't question your beliefs, then I think you're shortchanging both yourself and God. Also, neighbor means everyone that's not you; not just your actual next door neighbor.

Word. As a non christian, that's always struck me as the most important part of the Bible.

My favorite passage has always been the entire chapter of Matthew 7.

 

[randay]

I'd have to die and end up in hell instead of ending up in the ground as worm food. Then I'd believe.

 

[RichardE]

If god appeared, and all were convinced...withing 8 generations...this question would be asked again, since no one would believe any longer.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: RichardE
If god appeared, and all were convinced...withing 8 generations...this question would be asked again, since no one would believe any longer.

probably less, moon landing anyone?

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: RichardE
If god appeared, and all were convinced...withing 8 generations...this question would be asked again, since no one would believe any longer.

probably less, moon landing anyone?

Agreed.

**EDIT**
There are people who will just flat out refuse to believe in God, but they will practically believe in everything else.

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Golgatha
There's this funny thing called free will to explain the "issues" and who is to say anything in the past has been done "with his approval"?

I'm a believer myself, but I still wrestle with the question of creation (not of the earth, but just in general). What I mean to say is that something just doesn't logically come from nothing spontaneously, which is why I still can't wrap my head around God having no beginning.

Golgatha, nobody can understand God fully, except God himself. Time is a property of the universe: a part of God's creation. Time only binds those things with physical attributes to the physical realm. Likewise, our souls will never die because they are independent of time and space. The Bible makes it clear that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and as such can transcend his creation. He is outside of time.

You cannot keep going back and back and back in a never ending historical lineage, there has to be an originator for all things physical somewhere, someplace that has existed for all eternity in order for us to be here today. God.

 

[Juddog]

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Golgatha
There's this funny thing called free will to explain the "issues" and who is to say anything in the past has been done "with his approval"?

I'm a believer myself, but I still wrestle with the question of creation (not of the earth, but just in general). What I mean to say is that something just doesn't logically come from nothing spontaneously, which is why I still can't wrap my head around God having no beginning.

Golgatha, nobody can understand God fully, except God himself. Time is a property of the universe: a part of God's creation. Time only binds those things with physical attributes to the physical realm. Likewise, our souls will never die because they are independent of time and space. The Bible makes it clear that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and as such can transcend his creation. He is outside of time.

You cannot keep going back and back and back in a never ending historical lineage, there has to be an originator for all things physical somewhere, someplace that has existed for all eternity in order for us to be here today. God.

If God is a spirit, that would imply at some point he / she lived a life and died. If that's the case, then something must have given birth to that life, which means that there is a whole race of gods somewhere, creating universes and such to toy around with and laugh at.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: Juddog

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Golgatha
There's this funny thing called free will to explain the "issues" and who is to say anything in the past has been done "with his approval"?

I'm a believer myself, but I still wrestle with the question of creation (not of the earth, but just in general). What I mean to say is that something just doesn't logically come from nothing spontaneously, which is why I still can't wrap my head around God having no beginning.

Golgatha, nobody can understand God fully, except God himself. Time is a property of the universe: a part of God's creation. Time only binds those things with physical attributes to the physical realm. Likewise, our souls will never die because they are independent of time and space. The Bible makes it clear that God is a spirit (John 4:24), and as such can transcend his creation. He is outside of time.

You cannot keep going back and back and back in a never ending historical lineage, there has to be an originator for all things physical somewhere, someplace that has existed for all eternity in order for us to be here today. God.

If God is a spirit, that would imply at some point he / she lived a life and died. If that's the case, then something must have given birth to that life, which means that there is a whole race of gods somewhere, creating universes and such to toy around with and laugh at.

Well, think about this. The fact that God is a spirit says absolutely nothing about whether or not he has a body. Think about it. What are you? You're a spirit. You just happen to be a spirit that is currently residing in a body, but that doesn't change the fact that that little 'you' that is inside there is a spirit.

Case in point, after you die and are separated from your body, do you not still exist? Of course. This should clearly point to the fact that you are a spirit. Whether you are inhabiting a body may change, but that still doesn't change the fact that you are a spirit.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." Latin languages, like Spanish, French, Italian, etc. still call God "Zeus," but in derived forms like Dios, Dieu, Dio, (and even Deus in Portuguese), etc. It's also the etymology of the English word "deity." The English word "God" is derived from Woden, the Norse God. Thanks for playing though.

The Christian God has mutated itself from one form to another for centuries. However, Zeus and the folklore behind him is completely different than modern day Christian belief. So sure, if modern day Christians are happy with Zeus coming down, I'll be happy too. But let me tell you, that won't be what they're expecting. And that is when hilarity will ensue.

Thanks for playing.

 

[JayMassive]

breathing...blinking...a pulse...that's what i'd need to believe

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Cattlegod
nothing. even if he came down in person, i could never be sure if it was some sort of trick or not.

Nothing?

What if He, right now, took total control of your hand and fingers, and with them, wrote down on a piece of paper the words, "Hi, I do exist. - God."

And better yet, what if the words were in a language that you didn't know?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." How can one ever be absolutely certain it is really God? hence the need for faith.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Even if God did come down from heaven people would still refuse to believe in him. God could raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and conquer death in front of the entire world, and many would still reject salvation because of hardened, prideful hearts.

Quite the contrary. I would LOVE to see Zeus come down from the clouds and appear infront of the world. I'd be laughing my ass off at the expression on all the Christians' faces. LOL, man, that would be great! And let me tell you, me being wrong would never have felt so good.

Zeus (or Deus, same thing, Zeus is the anglicized form of the Greek word that means "God") is the Christian God. The first Christians were Greeks, and they called him Zeus (or Deus, same thing). The word Jesus is derived from Yah-Zeus, which literally meant "Jew God." .

Thats pretty hilarious. This is a perfect example of how people can sound so authoritative and yet spread nothing but deceit on the net.

Jesus is derived from Joshua, which means Jehovah saves, not, LOL, "jew god". The first Joshua recorded in the OT book of the same name lived around (I wanna say 800BC, but it could be earlier) and predates the Greeks you speak of.

Jesus of Nazareth was Yeshua bar Yusef al Natz'rat. Joshua, the successor to Moses, lived around 1200-1000 BC. Yeah, I know all that. Paul preached to the Greeks and Peter to the Romans though. You wanna explain my "deceit"?

Yes. What do you mean by "It was the Greeks who gave us Jesus Christ"?

Also, please explain why you clain the origin of "Jesus" is "Jew God" when it clearly is "Jehovah saves".

In case you missed it in Sunday School, Jesus was a Jew. Christianity is a Greek religion. Yes, the latter is derived from the former, but by the time of the Romans, Constantine, and then Augustine, the faith bore only passing resemblence to that actually taught by Jesus.
For one thing, this divinity of Jesus. I was referring to Almighty God the Father as being Yah-Zeus.

No. Please stop putting your foot in your mouth. You said JESUS meant Jew God. Now explain it.

Christianity is not a greek religion. Its revolves around a JEW who was the Son of God. After He left the earth, the Great Commission began to be fulfilled by people such as Luke, Peter, Paul, Timothy, etc. Paul preached to the Jews first, for whom as a Pharisee would be natural. They were hardened so he went to the gentiles, including Romans and Greeks, but not exclusively them.

The divinity of Jesus was documently in dozens of gospels written at most, a few decades after his birth. Four of which, believers know are divinely inspired.

Its sad how one can be so enthralled with gnosticism and obscure works and completely deny the sheer volume of manuscript supporting everything from His miracles to his resurrection though so many eye witness accounts. But this only goes to prove my point. no facts or evidence or miracles or anything seen withthe eyes of unbelievers can bring about faith. Faith to believe comes from God - and begins with repentance, brokeness and humility.