What Would It Take to Prove the Existence of a God?

[upsciLLion]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Anyone remember the third Matrix movie and the whole point about cause and effect? Without Neo, Agent Smith could not exist. Although it's not quite the same, I believe there are similarities between good and evil, between God and Satan. Does proving the existence of one, prove the existence of the other? We can prove the existence of Satan and evil. Do does that prove the existence of God and good?

Evil is obviously everywhere. Just look in P&N and all those people who can't wait to vote for a guy who supports this.

Better than a President that supports this

I hope to God when I'm your age I have better things to do than argue politics and religion on the Internet with a bunch of 20 year olds.

 

[conjur]

That's a fruitless hope as there is no God.

 

[upsciLLion]

Originally posted by: conjur
That's a fruitless hope as there is no God.

Meh. Whatever gets me out of bed each morning.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Originally posted by: conjur
That's a fruitless hope as there is no God.

I hope God shoves a lightning bolt up your ass for saying that.

 

[Twista]

for a bad thing to happen and you come out ok in the end. I think. like almost dying or something.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: conjur
That's a fruitless hope as there is no God.

I hope God shoves a lightning bolt up your ass for saying that.

Cool...I could use an enema. I doubt "God" will comply with your hopes, though, as he doesn't exist.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
A burning bush that speaks would work for me.

How about a log that sits in a gas fireplace, that doesn't burn, and has a hidden speaker somewhere nearby?

 

[conjur]

Would you settle for a fireplace DVD w/narration?

 

[FelixDeCat]

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
A burning bush that speaks would work for me.

How about a log that sits in a gas fireplace, that doesn't burn, and has a hidden speaker somewhere nearby?

This inspires me to make a completely unfunny statement. On second thought, maybe not.

 

[lavagirl669]

Originally posted by: Childs
Dying and actually going to heaven. Thing is, you could only prove it to yourself.

My thought too

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Anyone remember the third Matrix movie and the whole point about cause and effect? Without Neo, Agent Smith could not exist. Although it's not quite the same, I believe there are similarities between good and evil, between God and Satan. Does proving the existence of one, prove the existence of the other? We can prove the existence of Satan and evil. Do does that prove the existence of God and good?

Evil is obviously everywhere. Just look in P&N and all those people who can't wait to vote for a guy who supports this.

Better than a President that supports this

These sensational pictures are taken way out of context....that context being what is the normal state of affairs there even without us being involved. I am not saying that us causing damage to children is OK, but you can't selectively pick your targets each time in a war...it'd be nice not to have war at all.

That said some of the biggest anti-war advocates commit the 7 deadly sins themselves and if they were given unbridled power would push us into something far worst. The hypocracy of most's actions keep me out of P&N type things most of the time...you are merely playing a childhood game of mommy! mommy! or he said / she said.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones
Does God Exist? Yes, Mathematician Says

Mathematical Proof for God's Existence

Additionally, from Descartes to Godel, this has been done and done and done. The real question is why anyone could possible still deny His existence.

Jup

The problem with these arguments is subtle to some and obvious to others. It's simply that the world of mathematical objects is not the same as the universe we live in. Mathematical objects are abstractions, and certainly deities are that, but that doesn't mean that they exist in the real world, any more than you can walk down the street and see the number three. You can use the abstraction of the number three to describe the real world, but the number three itself does not exist in the real world.

 

[cquark]

A universe does not spontaneously come into existence... using the laws of physics we would assume that the "chaos" that existed before the universe would not shape itself into a universe - because that would go against the laws regarding entropy - the disorder would be decreasing, which would make it a non-spontaneous process.

It's important to remember that the Big Bang is the emergence of spacetime itself. There's no way to apply the a time-dependent law of physics, such as the 2nd law of thermodynamics, before the Big Bang because there was no "before," there being no time. Any time-dependent function is undefined before the Big Bang, so we have no way to reason about changes between "before" and after the Big Bang.

Either of your theories has logical flaws, simply because "intelligent life" can't occur spontaneously - it must be created.

Why can't it?

In any case, your statement has a logical flaw if we assume that the being that created it was intelligent, since it leads to an infinite regress, with each intelligent being having to have been created by another.

And don't tell me that monkeys are our ancient ancestors - even though that would explain some peoples'
stupidity.

Of course, they're not our ancestors, but we do have ancestors in common. They're our distant cousins, as our close genetic relationship to the other primates demonstrates.


Hopefully, these last two posts illustrate the futility of attempting to prove or disprove the existence of deities. There can be no certainty; you have to have faith to believe, and for the Protestants among us, isn't that the focus of your religion anyway?

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Anyone remember the third Matrix movie and the whole point about cause and effect? Without Neo, Agent Smith could not exist. Although it's not quite the same, I believe there are similarities between good and evil, between God and Satan. Does proving the existence of one, prove the existence of the other? We can prove the existence of Satan and evil. Do does that prove the existence of God and good?

Evil is obviously everywhere. Just look in P&N and all those people who can't wait to vote for a guy who supports this.

Better than a President that supports this

These sensational pictures are taken way out of context....that context being what is the normal state of affairs there even without us being involved. I am not saying that us causing damage to children is OK, but you can't selectively pick your targets each time in a war...it'd be nice not to have war at all.

That said some of the biggest anti-war advocates commit the 7 deadly sins themselves and if they were given unbridled power would push us into something far worst. The hypocracy of most's actions keep me out of P&N type things most of the time...you are merely playing a childhood game of mommy! mommy! or he said / she said.

I think both of you guys are missing the point - politicians tend to be evil, corrupt people that should be lined up and shot

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: cquark

A universe does not spontaneously come into existence... using the laws of physics we would assume that the "chaos" that existed before the universe would not shape itself into a universe - because that would go against the laws regarding entropy - the disorder would be decreasing, which would make it a non-spontaneous process.

It's important to remember that the Big Bang is the emergence of spacetime itself. There's no way to apply the a time-dependent law of physics, such as the 2nd law of thermodynamics, before the Big Bang because there was no "before," there being no time. Any time-dependent function is undefined before the Big Bang, so we have no way to reason about changes between "before" and after the Big Bang.

Reply:

I think the main point I was making was that spacetime itself would have to be created in order to exist... but you probably won't be convinced of the existence of God unless he appears in front of your face, so I'll save my fingers from having to type more justifications of the science behind why there has to be a God...

Either of your theories has logical flaws, simply because "intelligent life" can't occur spontaneously - it must be created.

Why can't it?

In any case, your statement has a logical flaw if we assume that the being that created it was intelligent, since it leads to an infinite regress, with each intelligent being having to have been created by another.

Reply:

No it really doesn't... God not being limited to a physical presence, he wouldn't have to be created by anything... whereas we, the ones bound to a physical existence, would have to be.

And don't tell me that monkeys are our ancient ancestors - even though that would explain some peoples'
stupidity.

Of course, they're not our ancestors, but we do have ancestors in common. They're our distant cousins, as our close genetic relationship to the other primates demonstrates.


Hopefully, these last two posts illustrate the futility of attempting to prove or disprove the existence of deities. There can be no certainty; you have to have faith to believe, and for the Protestants among us, isn't that the focus of your religion anyway?

Reply:

I'm not even going to respond to the evolutionist argument - let's just say I don't see monkeys turning into humans these days (although some humans are almost becoming monkeys...) - There can only be no certainty as long as you deny the existence of God... but if you open your mind you will see signs that there is a God all around you... Faith in God is like a tree falling in the wilderness - just because you can't hear it fall doesn't mean the tree doesn't exist. Likewise, just because you can't "see" God, it doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ariafrost
Reply:

I'm not even going to respond to the evolutionist argument - let's just say I don't see monkeys turning into humans these days (although some humans are almost becoming monkeys...) - There can only be no certainty as long as you deny the existence of God... but if you open your mind you will see signs that there is a God all around you... Faith in God is like a tree falling in the wilderness - just because you can't hear it fall doesn't mean the tree doesn't exist. Likewise, just because you can't "see" God, it doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

You have got to be trolling....if you seriously think anything evolving can be witnessed in a generation....however this is exactly what many zealots think evolution is: A monkey gives birth to a human baby.....:roll:

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: bonkers325
if a gigantic foot descended from the heavens and squooshed somebody.

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! I was rolling on the ground laughting like an idiot! Found my new quote!

 

[Legendary]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: cquark

A universe does not spontaneously come into existence... using the laws of physics we would assume that the "chaos" that existed before the universe would not shape itself into a universe - because that would go against the laws regarding entropy - the disorder would be decreasing, which would make it a non-

SNIP
Reply:

I'm not even going to respond to the evolutionist argument - let's just say I don't see monkeys turning into humans these days (although some humans are almost becoming monkeys...) - There can only be no certainty as long as you deny the existence of God... but if you open your mind you will see signs that there is a God all around you... Faith in God is like a tree falling in the wilderness - just because you can't hear it fall doesn't mean the tree doesn't exist. Likewise, just because you can't "see" God, it doesn't mean He doesn't exist.

Your ignorance to evolution is alarming.

And to clarify, just because a "mathematician" says something is true, and has proven it with "math" does not automatically make it absolutely correct. When people hear math they think 1+1=2 - but in higher levels of math it's nowhere, not even close, to the same amount of concrete application that addition and subtraction have.

 

[TheShiz]

evolution is a cold fact, it is amazing how many people in the US do not accept that, I've heard up to 50%. Just because evolution is true does not mean that god does not exist. Without the understanding of evolution medicine would be no where as advanced as it is today.

 

[PizzaDude]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: SoylentGreen
Why do people feel the need of explaining the universe away via a deity?

Religion has always been used to explain the unexplainable.

The thing is, what was unexplainable 2,000 years ago is explainable today. We no longer need religion to explain things, like how life started.

There is much more to religion than just that, such as the teaching of values, lessons and morals. There is nothing wrong with that, but you musn't get the two mixed up. You don't have to be religious to be a moral person with values.

You really have summed up my beliefs right there. Well put.

 

[PizzaDude]

Originally posted by: Train
Waiting for a sign from God defeates the purpose of him telling you to have "Faith" faith is belieiving something is there when you dont have any hard evidence.

Jesus told the apostles they were the unlucky ones, because they didnt require faith, they saw the miracles with thier own eyes, therefore had it easy, and wont be rewarded nearly as much in heaven as someone who never met jesus or a saint but truly believes anyways.

I guess you could say its kinda like betting on the Super Bowl, having faith in a team before they win can win you a lot of money, but trying to place a wager after you have the proof that they won will get you nowhere, get it?

Then why have faith if you don't have evidence?

 

[KingofFah]

I didn't read much of the posts here, but thought I would add something.
The only thing that is guaranteed to exist is nothing (nonexistence - mathematical 0).
All theorems and proofs are based on assumptions - logic itself is derived from assumptions (that is why if you think about something for long enough - or short enough depending on how fast your mind is - you can come to a paradox). Even ignoring the complex way of disproving logical statements (forcing a logical statement to a paradox), you can always point out the assumptions. I love applied mathematics, and have had some extremely intelligent people teach me (Abstract Algebra is an incredible introduction for those of you interested in pure mathematics). However, all mathematical proofs are based on the assumed laws of mathematics. From these simple laws the complex ones are created. I liked one of my professors who finally acknowledge that in one of his proofs. We came to the end of the proof and he said QED unless you want to see me try and prove that 1+1=2.
From here on, if you paid attention you might ask me how I can come to any conclusions (since I must be using logic to declare statements, but apparently I do not believe in logic). I do not believe in any relative logic, I believe in absolute logic - something beyond our comprehension that is present at every paradox.
Some people never understand how I use logic to disprove logic. It just doesn't "make sense". It is illogical. Most of playing in math comes down to my personal belief that if logic exists, then logic doesn't exist and vice versa.
The answer to people who cannot understand that is you are limiting yourself to your existence.
That is an interesting thought.
If you cannot understand anything outside of the relative existence you are in, then you must not exist anywhere else; therefore, you must not have a "soul" and will enter into non-existence when you die. The the thought that you can die and cease to exist means that there is an absolute nonexistence. Is 0 infinte? Could zero be the infinte positive and negative forces?
Obviously, since I do not believe in logic I cannot come to any conclusions. Wherever I stop is simply another place for the insane ramblings to begin again. The next time I continue thinking about them I may reach the exact opposite with solid logical proof - waiting for it to destroy itself.

Most people who listen to me talk either do not understand and think everything I said is bull or do not understand what I said but make the mistake of trying to understand it through logic. Only a few people I have met so far have been able to debate with me, and it was only because they believed in nonexistence (believed in nothing - had no beliefs which is a belief ). Those 1 or 2 people are the ones I like to talk to the most. The first mistake in getting into a debate with me is believing in anything when you enter into it. Everything you believe is true can be disproven to your mind (unless your mind is entirely illogical).

That's why people who believe in science (based on assumptions just like any religion) are also subject to laughter.
I think it is funny how the intellectuals and knowledgeable poke fun at the religious without realizing that science is another religion which has assumptions (true - they are not as obviously to most people as are the ones in religions).

When the fundamental "laws" are proven I will eat all of my words Simplicity is the most complex thing there is.

Originally posted by: JupiterJones
Does God Exist? Yes, Mathematician Says

Mathematical Proof for God's Existence

Additionally, from Descartes to Godel, this has been done and done and done. The real question is why anyone could possible still deny His existence.

see Psalm 53:1

Jup

It is good to see that you feel it is proven, but it all comes down to some level where they just stop trying to prove anything because it seems "obvious". Have you ever wondered why 1+1=2 seems obvious?
I have come up with some nice mathematical proofs for existence of an intelligent infinite "being", but it is always the simple assumptions of math that kill proofs.

To make life easier for you people, the following is included:
I am an absolute idiot. You are all my superiors, and I thank you for allowing me to make such an ignorant post. Quite obviously my words are in direct conflict with reality which everyone knows exists.
Please forgive me, and have mercy on the retarded.

If you absolutely feel the need to insult me further than that, please do.

 

[Ready]

The fact that the Lakers are getting hammered is proof enough to me that God exist.

 

[purepolly]

:thumbsup:

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
A burning bush that speaks would work for me.

How about a Bumbling Bush that kind of speaks?