What Would It Take to Prove the Existence of a God?

[JupiterJones]

Does God Exist? Yes, Mathematician Says

Mathematical Proof for God's Existence

Additionally, from Descartes to Godel, this has been done and done and done. The real question is why anyone could possible still deny His existence.

see Psalm 53:1

Jup

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones
Does God Exist? Yes, Mathematician Says

Mathematical Proof for God's Existence

Additionally, from Descartes to Godel, this has been done and done and done. The real question is why anyone could possible still deny His existence.

see Psalm 53:1

Jup

:beer:

God has GOT to exist. There's no way that even random chaos can bring about the hell I'm going through. There has GOT to be someone to blame and curse and hate. A line from one of my favorite movies:

God is a mean little boy on an ant hill with a magnifying glass. God could fix my life in five minutes if he wanted to, but he'd rather burn off my feelers and watch me squirm!

:|

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: JupiterJones
Does God Exist? Yes, Mathematician Says

Mathematical Proof for God's Existence

Additionally, from Descartes to Godel, this has been done and done and done. The real question is why anyone could possible still deny His existence.

see Psalm 53:1

Jup

The first link:

I guess I just fail to see the reasoning behind the universe exists because something (god) created it.

Using the articles reasoning:

I dont' see why it can't be that the universe didn't create itself. If god can create himself, why not the universe?

Using my reasoning:

If god has always existed, why can't the universe have always existed?

Using another reasoning:

If everything needs to be created by something else (cause & effect) who created god?

The second link:

It contains a few pictures of a table of contents. That proves god exists...how?

It may be a puzzle, but there have been others in the past.

What if somebody could provide irrefutable proof that universe was NOT created by god?

What if someone could provide irrefutable proof that lightning was NOT caused by god?

What if somebody could provide irrefutable proof that bad weather (Tornados, hurricanes, floods, etc) were NOTcaused by god?

What if most everything that was once thought to be caused by god, could be proven differently by science?

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy

Originally posted by: ariafrost
If there is no God... how do you explain miracles? Such as a boy that drowns and is pronounced dead comes back to life and begins to breath 2 hours after... (check CNN).

My skills in the CNN search engine are apparently lacking. Link?

All I'm finding is Oklahoma City stuff.

Here you go, Linky

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy

Originally posted by: ariafrost
If there is no God... how do you explain miracles? Such as a boy that drowns and is pronounced dead comes back to life and begins to breath 2 hours after... (check CNN).

My skills in the CNN search engine are apparently lacking. Link?

All I'm finding is Oklahoma City stuff.

Here you go, Linky

I don't any an explanation that pops straight into my head. However, I would suggest you change your ram timings to 2-2-2-11

 

[IEC]

I dont' see why it can't be that the universe didn't create itself. If god can create himself, why not the universe?

God, as an unseen and imperceptible entity, does not classify in the same category as the universe, which has an actual existence, and therefore, cannot have created itself. The basic point is that anything in this world (read: tangible things) is created by something else...

If god has always existed, why can't the universe have always existed?

Like I said, the universe being a perceivable, physical location, it must have been created. (Read below)

What if somebody could provide irrefutable proof that universe was NOT created by god?

Who else would it be created by? A universe does not spontaneously come into existence... using the laws of physics we would assume that the "chaos" that existed before the universe would not shape itself into a universe - because that would go against the laws regarding entropy - the disorder would be decreasing, which would make it a non-spontaneous process.

What if someone could provide irrefutable proof that lightning was NOT caused by god?

Even if lightning is classified as a "natural weather phenomenon," again, God created the universe and all that is in it, so everything functions according to the "natural laws" He created.

What if somebody could provide irrefutable proof that bad weather (Tornados, hurricanes, floods, etc) were NOTcaused by god?

Read above answer + Bad weather is not necessarily CAUSED by God in the sense that He wants to punish you or something like that... though He could... Bad weather is simply a phenomenon that occurs because weather, like everything else, functions according to the "natural laws" that God created.

What if most everything that was once thought to be caused by god, could be proven differently by science?

Sigh... some scientists would have you believe God doesn't exist... but the laws of science prove time and again that there must be some sort of divine entity - the universe cannot spontaneously create itself... Another thing is the "evolution" theory in which organic materials were struck by lightning and became living single-celled organisms - the problem with that idea is "who created the lightning", and "who created the component elements/atoms/subatomic particles that compose matter". The answer being there must be a God...

Feel free to ask more questions... I had my doubts as well... I spent a long, painful time arguing with myself over whether God existed or not.

 

[IEC]

I don't any an explanation that pops straight into my head. However, I would suggest you change your ram timings to 2-2-2-11

lol, I wish i could get my timings to like 1-1-1-1-1 or something impossible like that... no latency RAM, woohoo!

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: purepolly
quote:

That being said, I will also admit I have heard the voice of god once.

How do you know you heard the voice of God or not? That gift (or curse, however you look at it) is VERY rare these days... for all we know, you might have heard someone/something else...

EDIT: While I'm at it, I might as well incorporate the space-time continuum... time is definitely not a two dimensional concept, so why can't the universe have more dimensions than we can perceive? Just a thought.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy

Originally posted by: ariafrost
If there is no God... how do you explain miracles? Such as a boy that drowns and is pronounced dead comes back to life and begins to breath 2 hours after... (check CNN).

My skills in the CNN search engine are apparently lacking. Link?

All I'm finding is Oklahoma City stuff.

Here you go, Linky

That's not the first time and it won't be the last time.

Sheesh...and *that's* proof that a god exists???


BWA HA HA HA HA HAH A

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

I don't any an explanation that pops straight into my head. However, I would suggest you change your ram timings to 2-2-2-11

lol, I wish i could get my timings to like 1-1-1-1-1 or something impossible like that... no latency RAM, woohoo!

Just try it, 2-2-2-11. Humor me, you may not notice an improvement, but the system will run better.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

... snipped to save space

Feel free to ask more questions... I had my doubts as well... I spent a long, painful time arguing with myself over whether God existed or not.

Had you and I existed a thousand years ago, and asked the same questions. I have no doubt that your answer would have been very different.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: JustAnAverageGuy

Originally posted by: ariafrost
If there is no God... how do you explain miracles? Such as a boy that drowns and is pronounced dead comes back to life and begins to breath 2 hours after... (check CNN).

My skills in the CNN search engine are apparently lacking. Link?

All I'm finding is Oklahoma City stuff.

Here you go, Linky

That's not the first time and it won't be the last time.

Sheesh...and *that's* proof that a god exists???


BWA HA HA HA HA HAH A

If you read in context... you'll notice I was referring to events that we as humans cannot comprehend, so-called "miracles". Granted, just because we can't explain it logically doesn't mean that there isn't a logical explanation for it... but let me put it this way... think of the complexity of your body, the billions of functions that go on unnoticed, and the fact that we are sentient beings... have you ever asked yourself "how do I exist at all?" Think of the complexities of nature, the complexities of life, the chaos and beauty and sadness and happiness of life... how can all this be the product of a random event? It cannot be, we must have been created by some divine being... what's more, if there is no God, then what is there to live for? If this life is all that we have - that's incredibly sad... I would kill all the people in the world just to spare future generations the turmoil of life... my 2 cents.

 

[breakit23]

Asking how certain things such as friction and stars and other finely tuned constants that allow us to exist are present is paradox itself becuase if these entities din't exist we wouldn't be around to ask this.

" (Barrow & Tipler) We should not be surprised that we do not observe features of the universe incompatible with our own existence, for if features were incompatible, we would not be here to notice it, so no explanation is needed."

The are a couple theories to supply reasoning for this are:
"
The intelligent design explanation assumes the existence of a being, principle or mechanism with the purpose to create a universe with intelligent life. It would thus somehow set the physical constants as we know them. This agent could of course be a God-like being, but it need not be.

and

The multi universe explanation assumes the existence of a mechanism that has created many universes with different physical constants, some of which are hospitable to intelligent life. And because we are an intelligent being, we would happen to be in a hospitable one. This approach has led to a lot of research in the anthropic principle
"

Then there is the theory that the universe has expanded and contracted countless times with different physical constants some allowing life other not.

 

[IEC]

And don't be discouraged by those who call themselves "Christians" but really don't show it in their actions and speech... I was put off for the longest time by how some so-called Christians acted... but that's one of the problems with being baptized as an infant or when un-ready to accept God... you simply don't know or don't care, but are still identified as "Christian". True Christians are admirable, kind-hearted people that have something different about them - they really are set apart to God. I only wish I could be "perfect" - but I know that even though I cannot be perfect, through Christ I am made blameless in the sight of God when he judges me.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: breakit23
Asking how certain things such as friction and stars and other finely tuned constants that allow us to exist are present is paradox itself becuase if these entities din't exist we wouldn't be around to ask this.

" (Barrow & Tipler) We should not be surprised that we do not observe features of the universe incompatible with our own existence, for if features were incompatible, we would not be here to notice it, so no explanation is needed."

The are a couple theories to supply reasoning for this are:
"
The intelligent design explanation assumes the existence of a being, principle or mechanism with the purpose to create a universe with intelligent life. It would thus somehow set the physical constants as we know them. This agent could of course be a God-like being, but it need not be.

and

The multi universe explanation assumes the existence of a mechanism that has created many universes with different physical constants, some of which are hospitable to intelligent life. And because we are an intelligent being, we would happen to be in a hospitable one. This approach has led to a lot of research in the anthropic principle
"

Then there is the theory that the universe has expanded and contracted countless times with different physical constants some allowing life other not.

Either of your theories has logical flaws, simply because "intelligent life" can't occur spontaneously - it must be created. And don't tell me that monkeys are our ancient ancestors - even though that would explain some peoples' stupidity.
:roll:

 

[breakit23]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Either of your theories has logical flaws, simply because "intelligent life" can't occur spontaneously - it must be created. And don't tell me that monkeys are our ancient ancestors - even though that would explain some peoples' stupidity.
:roll:

The only theory that's spontaneous is that the Christian god plopped two of them in a garden.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Anyone remember the third Matrix movie and the whole point about cause and effect? Without Neo, Agent Smith could not exist. Although it's not quite the same, I believe there are similarities between good and evil, between God and Satan. Does proving the existence of one, prove the existence of the other? We can prove the existence of Satan and evil. Do does that prove the existence of God and good?

Evil is obviously everywhere. Just look in P&N and all those people who can't wait to vote for a guy who supports this.

 

[mattlear]

I thought God's existance/non-existance was proven already???

(I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet!)

"The Babel Fish is small, yellow and leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all of these unconscious mental frequencies from the brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of the carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the concious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel Fish in your ear you will be able to instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel Fish.

Now it is such a bizzarely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NON existence of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. (*note, it's a term for pedestrian crosswalks in england, he's not talking about the animal zebras, i don't think, but either way it's funny*)

Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidney's, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, Well That About Wraps It Up For God.

Meanwhile, the poor Babel Fish, by effectively removing all barriers of communication between all races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."

An excerpt from The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, by Douglas Adams

-Matt

 

[dethman]

Originally posted by: bonkers325
if a gigantic foot descended from the heavens and squooshed somebody.

there you go.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ariafrost

Originally posted by: purepolly
quote:

That being said, I will also admit I have heard the voice of god once.

How do you know you heard the voice of God or not? That gift (or curse, however you look at it) is VERY rare these days... for all we know, you might have heard someone/something else...

EDIT: While I'm at it, I might as well incorporate the space-time continuum... time is definitely not a two dimensional concept, so why can't the universe have more dimensions than we can perceive? Just a thought.

If it is very RARE are you saying it really happens.

Here is the thing, if she heard something other than God so be it....barring insanity, that still leaves open a big can of worms.

Another thing, people start bringing up side arguements that have nothing to do with proving or disproving God/Jesus/whatever. It doesn't matter if it was a literal 7 days or not, whether God is an alien, black, a woman, multipersonality, etc.....

Then people throw in the whole evolution vs creation argument without even understanding the science behind it.

Like I said earlier, nothing can prove the existance of God as even meeting him in person, having him / her / it doing miracles, you will still have disbelievers. Everyone should realize if the story is true 'God' already came here in the form of Jesus and did miracles....people still disbelieved or wanted him dead because it took away from their current beliefs.

One last note, the existance of 'God' and evolution does not disprove creation, nor does it disprove the existance of other Gods.

 

[purepolly]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: ariafrost

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: purepolly
quote:

That being said, I will also admit I have heard the voice of god once.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



How do you know you heard the voice of God or not? That gift (or curse, however you look at it) is VERY rare these days... for all we know, you might have heard someone/something else...

EDIT: While I'm at it, I might as well incorporate the space-time continuum... time is definitely not a two dimensional concept, so why can't the universe have more dimensions than we can perceive? Just a thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




If it is very RARE are you saying it really happens.

Here is the thing, if she heard something other than God so be it....barring insanity, that still leaves open a big can of worms.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it comforts you to think I may have heard someone or something else, so be it. I couldn't convince anyone, nor do I particularly want to, of the existence of god. We each have our own faith and path to explore.

 

[Pacfanweb]

A burning bush that speaks would work for me.

 

[PowerEngineer]

The one striking idea from Carl Sagan's book "Contact" (an idea that was not carried over into the movie) was that some sign of God's existance could be hidden in the yet to be calculated digits of a transcendental number such as pi. Here's a quote from the end of that book where the sign is discovered:

"The anomaly showed up most starkly in Base 11 arithmetic, where it could be written out entirely as zeros and ones. Compared with what had been received from Vega, this could be at best a simple message, but its statistical significance was high. The program reassembled the digits into a square raster, an equal number across and down. The first line was an uninterrupted file of zeros, left to right. The second line showed a single numeral one, exactly in the middle, with zeros to the borders, left and right. After a few more lines, an unmistakable arc had formed, composed of ones. The simple geometrical figure had been quickly constructed, line by line, self-reflexive, rich with promise. The last line of the figure emerged, all zeros except for a single centered one. The subsequent line would be zeros only, part of the frame.

Hiding in the alternating patterns of digits, deep inside the transcendental number, was a perfect circle, its form traced out by unities in a field of noughts."

Now that would be proof to me that something like a God did really create the universe.

 

[zzzz]

The babel fish is dead giveaway.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Anyone remember the third Matrix movie and the whole point about cause and effect? Without Neo, Agent Smith could not exist. Although it's not quite the same, I believe there are similarities between good and evil, between God and Satan. Does proving the existence of one, prove the existence of the other? We can prove the existence of Satan and evil. Do does that prove the existence of God and good?

Evil is obviously everywhere. Just look in P&N and all those people who can't wait to vote for a guy who supports this.

Better than a President that supports this