Obviously you don't know Catholic girls like I doOriginally posted by: DainBramaged
Originally posted by: Juddog
Originally posted by: DainBramaged
Same thing now, except the going to church thing once every few weeks.
Why stop going to church? Wouldn't you miss the social network that you had from going?
None of the girls ever put out, anyway.
Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Originally posted by: Garth
FALSE DILEMMA ALERT!!Originally posted by: RapidSnail
If God wasn't real, I would live a lascivious life filled sex and drugs; I would do all the carnal things that my heart desires. After all, I would just rot into the ground when I die.
The only thing keeping me from doing those things is the promise of eternal life given to those who believe in Jesus Christ.
It does not automatically follow from "God doesn't exist" to "I would just rot into the ground when I die."
And why don't you find virtue to be it's own reward? What a sad, sad life you must lead.
Because what reason is there to live a life abstaining from alcohol and keeping one woman and doing all that is good if there is no God? Tell me where the morals that you keep in your conscience have originated from. Why shouldn't we kill? We're only animals after all, there is no sanctity of life among them. What about adultery, homosexuality, and incest? The animals do it and I am one of them, correct? What am I rewarded for living a clean life on earth if God is dead? Nothing. I might as well enjoy myself for the very short time I'm on the planet and live out my worldly desires.
Not quite. It's harder for me to believe in a god because there is strong evidence against one existing, and very srong evidence to suggest that it's little more that a comforting story. Absolutely everything points to there not being a god. You seem to be under the impression that the harder something is, the better it is to follow that route. You'd rather climb the outside of a skyscraper with your bare hands instead of using the elevator because you feel you'll be more righteous when you reach your office on the 20th floor. Of course, you won't be, although people might think you're a bit weird for having ascended in such an unusual manner.Originally posted by: MrWizzard
Originally posted by: loic2003
Originally posted by: Juddog
What would you do if you found out that God wasn't real
They'd do the same thing they did every other day of their lives: claim it was a trick of the devil and promptly stick their heads back in the sand. These people have been brought up being indoctrinated by the virus of religion, and the vast majority are now terminal patients with no chance of breaking free. Only the very strongest can make it through and liberate their minds, but most do not have the mental strength or will to take the challenge.
Think about it: every day they are saturated with poof, yet they continue to deny it and fall back on what makes them feel comfortable. It's sad, but you can't expect the majority of a population to have the mental capacity to think freely.
Edit: spelt the name of the red beast's name incorrectly.
Hmm interesting point, I would tend to lean toward the weak minded take the easy way out and believe there is no God, I mean it is the path of least resistance in this day of age, isn't it. From either side there are compelling arguments. It makes you think a lot. I still feel that taking the there is no God route is the easier of the two.
I see what point you are trying to make I just think you made a rather feeble attempt at it, you could easily reword it and make it work the other way around, so if we get someone who words their argument like you and someone who does the oppositely (religious). No progress is going to be made.
there is strong evidence against one existing, and very srong evidence to suggest that it's little more that a comforting story. Absolutely everything points to there not being a god.
I'm presuming you're a christian. Tell me exactly why you're not a muslim. Have you considered islam and decided christianity seemed more plausable? Surely, the harder path would be to go for a completely different religion to your family and friends, then try to convert them to the proper religion. It's harder, instead of falling into whatever religion lands on your lap, so why not follow that route? What evidence do you have against islam that your religion stnds up against? What about the evidence against the Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Mayan, Aztec, Celtic, Greek or Hindu gods that you have carefully considered and decided against. Tell me exactly why these religions didn't stand up to whatever is required for you to take on a religion, and how your religion is different.
Or do you fall into the grey area where in reality you reject christianity and fall back on "ooh, I don't really know, but I recon there is some kind of a god"? If so, you're a couple of steps towards atheism. Keep walking!
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
there is strong evidence against one existing, and very srong evidence to suggest that it's little more that a comforting story. Absolutely everything points to there not being a god.
That evidence is?
I'm presuming you're a christian. Tell me exactly why you're not a muslim. Have you considered islam and decided christianity seemed more plausable? Surely, the harder path would be to go for a completely different religion to your family and friends, then try to convert them to the proper religion. It's harder, instead of falling into whatever religion lands on your lap, so why not follow that route? What evidence do you have against islam that your religion stnds up against? What about the evidence against the Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Mayan, Aztec, Celtic, Greek or Hindu gods that you have carefully considered and decided against. Tell me exactly why these religions didn't stand up to whatever is required for you to take on a religion, and how your religion is different.
Because we don't believe in them!? Forgive me I don't quite understand where you are going in this argument. You want us to arbitrarily choose a religion, then work on converting everyone we know to it?? We choose the religions we choose because we believe in it, not because...whatever you are trying to say.
I mean, do you want me to tell the reasons, why I don't believe in EVERY SINGLE religion out there. If I am to do that you better have a hell of a lot of reason stated right here why you don't believe in Christianity.
Or do you fall into the grey area where in reality you reject christianity and fall back on "ooh, I don't really know, but I recon there is some kind of a god"? If so, you're a couple of steps towards atheism. Keep walking!
I'm still not following you. Are you referring to agnostic?
-Kevin
-a complete and utter lack of any physical evidence, now or ever in history of any god ever existingThat evidence is?
That's not a reason. The sun doesn't shine just because it shines... tell my why you believe in christianity and not the other religions I listed. Please go ahead and actually do it, as I'm curious. What makes those other religions 'wrong'?We choose the religions we choose because we believe in it, not because...whatever you are trying to say.
-a complete and utter lack of any physical evidence, now or ever in history of any god ever existing
-impossiblity of a god, (law of thermodynamics, etc)
-long history of gods being invented, thought to be real then the religion curiously turning to mythology as the religion expires. Strong possiblity all current religions will eventually go the same way.
-in-built desire of the human mind to have a parent figure to look up to and hence create/believe in a religion. Desire to explain the unknown.
-Human fear of death and the comforting feeling a religion provides
-lack of proof of any miracle ever occuring. Supposed miracles always subtle and explainable scientifically (no amputees growing limbs back or AIDS victims curing themselves, no matter how good the person is and how much god loves them)
-clear evidence that christianity was a bastardisation of roman caltholism and paganism. Since the church used to rule the land, there's a strong likelyhood the bible was edited to maximize population control (do as we say and you'll not suffer unimaginable torture for eternity... )
-Very strong evidence to prove that the earth was created by natural events and not in a few days by a magical being. Evolution.
-dubiously coincidental feature of most religions that the god happens to be invisible, and the only 'proof' of them existing is blind faith.
Just think of all the reasons you don't believe in fairies and apply them to christianity. Please list your reasons for not believing in faries (Actually do it, and don't dodge the question).
That's not a reason. The sun doesn't shine just because it shines... tell my why you believe in christianity and not the other religions I listed. Please go ahead and actually do it, as I'm curious. What makes those other religions 'wrong'?
The Bible isn't enough I guess? You need physical evidence to believe in ANYTHING? Do you know the word faith.
So you are using failed, and IMO, false religions as a reason to disprove Christianity? Because those religions have failed in the past, you believe that the religions today will fail. There is no logic behind that at all.
So everything that science can't explain is sheer coincidence- there is no chance that it could be a miracle? Everything that appears lucky can't EVER have ANY CHANCE of being a miracle?
I don't quite understand your argument but I'll take a shot at it. You are using man-made mistakes (Yes we as Christians still make mistakes) to use as a reason to not believe in the religion.
Faith could also be a delusion. If I believed I was napoleon, people would think I was deluded. If several million people shared a delusion... well... you could call it a religion, couldn't you? They'd all have a lot of faith in their delusion, and to them it would seem to be very, very real, but to someone not sharing the delusion, it would seem like one hell of a scary notion. Just 'having faith' for the hell of it, isn't enough to justify or prove anything. Can you not see this?Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
The Bible isn't enough I guess? You need physical evidence to believe in ANYTHING? Do you know the word faith.
God creating a planet from nothing in a few days is physically dubious, at best.Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I am unaware of how the Laws Of Thermodynamics conflict with religion. Additionally, these are man-made laws. There have been exceptions to laws and laws have been dis-proven in the past. Hasn't history shown you that man is most definitely fallible.
Why are they failed? Why are they false? You can bet your butt that each person who lived under those past religions believed just as strongly their religion was the 'right' religion. Why is christianity any different? Actually explain why. You just 'know' other religions are 'wrong'? What's with that? Why have you not considered them? None of them are disprovable and require faith in order to accept them. You don't like the fact that I don't have much faith, why not have even more faith yourself, and consider these other religions?Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
So you are using failed, and IMO, false religions as a reason to disprove Christianity? Because those religions have failed in the past, you believe that the religions today will fail. There is no logic behind that at all.
Originally posted by: Juddog
Let's not stray off topic here. Answer with the assumption of how your life would change or how you think society would change if there was proof that god did not exist. You can't answer 2x+1=y, where x=2 with "no, x really equals 1", because then you fail the logic of the original assumption.
Also there is no need to flame believers / non-believers here, and circular logic does not apply. If you say you believe in the book because the book had writing in it that said it's infallible, then you have locked yourself in a logic loop. You need to step out of that loop in another program section to answer this question.
Originally posted by: Juddog
Let's not stray off topic here. Answer with the assumption of how your life would change or how you think society would change if there was proof that god did not exist. You can't answer 2x+1=y, where x=2 with "no, x really equals 1", because then you fail the logic of the original assumption.
Also there is no need to flame believers / non-believers here, and circular logic does not apply. If you say you believe in the book because the book had writing in it that said it's infallible, then you have locked yourself in a logic loop. You need to step out of that loop in another program section to answer this question.
Originally posted by: Madwand1
Originally posted by: Juddog
Let's not stray off topic here. Answer with the assumption of how your life would change or how you think society would change if there was proof that god did not exist. You can't answer 2x+1=y, where x=2 with "no, x really equals 1", because then you fail the logic of the original assumption.
Also there is no need to flame believers / non-believers here, and circular logic does not apply. If you say you believe in the book because the book had writing in it that said it's infallible, then you have locked yourself in a logic loop. You need to step out of that loop in another program section to answer this question.
Try to understand your own question, and what it would take to really know that there is no God. Then imagine what you might do with such a mind / etc. I can't.
Besides that, your question is nothing but a question of human drama -- what happens if my life / beliefs are overturned one way or another. I don't really want to trivialize this, but this sort of thing happens every day with many people. They adopt one set of beliefs, which are just beliefs after all, and then change them to something else. If the changes are significant, there's a lot of human drama involved. Which this thread has somewhat illustrated as well...
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
"Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
The Bible isn't enough I guess? You need physical evidence to believe in ANYTHING? Do you know the word faith."
People have faith in different things.. but to have faith in something with 0 evidence is foolish. That is called blind faith and could be put in anything including, including governments, other people, etc. It often winds up in disaster and is not adviseable.
The bible was something made up by a bunch of guys to create a religion. The same thing as the Koran, except that was made primarily by one guy, most likely a schizo. The problem with the bible is that it hasn't been updated in 2000 years. Slavery was deemed "ok" 200 years ago... things change.. the bible hasn't changed in 2000 years, and people aren';t intelligent enough to adapt it on their own.. hence the hate of many things including gays, interracial marriages, women's rights, slavery that our society has had to slowly fight through. Without wrongly using religion for selfish reasons and profit there would not be nearly as much resistance.
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Juddog
Let's not stray off topic here. Answer with the assumption of how your life would change or how you think society would change if there was proof that god did not exist. You can't answer 2x+1=y, where x=2 with "no, x really equals 1", because then you fail the logic of the original assumption.
Also there is no need to flame believers / non-believers here, and circular logic does not apply. If you say you believe in the book because the book had writing in it that said it's infallible, then you have locked yourself in a logic loop. You need to step out of that loop in another program section to answer this question.
I understand what you're telling the Bible thumpers, however, I don't think you understand what I'm telling you. If God in the biblical sense is proven not to exist (hypothetically), then you still have the issue of God in the Einsteinian sense (i.e. the universe as God). It doesn't go away, nor can it. If all is "random chance" and humans are the only "intelligent" life in the universe, then we are God as we would be the universe becoming aware of itself. Or perhaps God represents what the process of evolution is evolving towards. Or perhaps we're disembodied brains floating in vats, all of this is imaginary, and we're each of us Gods of our own imaginary universes. Does this make sense? There is no not God, there are just certain understandings of God that we are slowly discovering are incorrect, like running down a checklist of trial and error. Science cannot prove theism but it disproved atheism long ago. That's what makes the armchair atheist internet scientists so laughable, and why they always stick to the straw men of the God of traditional religions (like Christianity) instead of permitting discussions on the higher and deeper philosophical levels of the concept.
Religion cannot be removed from the equation. Take it away and people will just do the same thing with a different name.Originally posted by: Juddog
The higher and deeper philosphical levels of the concept can be persued in another thread. It is entirely possible that the universe is discovering itself or what-not, but the main point I am looking for, is do people change for the worse, or change for the better, when religion is removed from the equation.
This is a horrific straw man which is simply ridiculous. I can see you want to keep the discussion to the old bearded man in the clouds. I wonder why? :roll:The Einstein style of god, is that it is something which is unknowable. In this context, it is equally likely that there is a spaghetti monster, as there is an old beared man sitting in the clouds welcoming people into the land above. Atheism itself was never disproved; it is something which is, under current circumstances, unproveable. This is why this discussion in particular was based upon one facet of the possibilities that exist and not the conversation as a whole, as it would be too far reaching and complex than something which could be easily discussed on an internet forum.
Originally posted by: Vic
Religion cannot be removed from the equation. Take it away and people will just do the same thing with a different name.Originally posted by: Juddog
The higher and deeper philosphical levels of the concept can be persued in another thread. It is entirely possible that the universe is discovering itself or what-not, but the main point I am looking for, is do people change for the worse, or change for the better, when religion is removed from the equation.
Religion is not God. That is a misnomer. Religion is an organizational institution of human beings.
This is a horrific straw man which is simply ridiculous. I can see you want to keep the discussion to the old bearded man in the clouds. I wonder why? :roll:The Einstein style of god, is that it is something which is unknowable. In this context, it is equally likely that there is a spaghetti monster, as there is an old beared man sitting in the clouds welcoming people into the land above. Atheism itself was never disproved; it is something which is, under current circumstances, unproveable. This is why this discussion in particular was based upon one facet of the possibilities that exist and not the conversation as a whole, as it would be too far reaching and complex than something which could be easily discussed on an internet forum.
It's the definition of a straw man. You're trying to keep the subject to within a precise definition of your own for the purposes of proving it wrong, when the subject in fact is not so clearly defined (or defined that way by all) as you would like it.Originally posted by: Juddog
Originally posted by: Vic
Religion cannot be removed from the equation. Take it away and people will just do the same thing with a different name.Originally posted by: Juddog
The higher and deeper philosphical levels of the concept can be persued in another thread. It is entirely possible that the universe is discovering itself or what-not, but the main point I am looking for, is do people change for the worse, or change for the better, when religion is removed from the equation.
Religion is not God. That is a misnomer. Religion is an organizational institution of human beings.
This is a horrific straw man which is simply ridiculous. I can see you want to keep the discussion to the old bearded man in the clouds. I wonder why? :roll:The Einstein style of god, is that it is something which is unknowable. In this context, it is equally likely that there is a spaghetti monster, as there is an old beared man sitting in the clouds welcoming people into the land above. Atheism itself was never disproved; it is something which is, under current circumstances, unproveable. This is why this discussion in particular was based upon one facet of the possibilities that exist and not the conversation as a whole, as it would be too far reaching and complex than something which could be easily discussed on an internet forum.
This is not a straw man argument. I have been to europe and visited the older cathedrals in Rome, Venice, Sienna, and a few others. I have seen the 16th and 17th century style paintings where they put a face upon god, the holy spirit, and Jesus. Heck in the states all you usually see anything of is Jesus.
All I had said was that it was equally likely for one thing that's unknowable, as it is for something else that's unknowable, to exist. This is not a straw man argument at all. It's similar to dividing by zero. You can technically come up with any number of possible answers, and the true answer is indeed unknowable, any variable could fit into the equation and come up with an equal chance of probability.
My answer remains: we can't find that out, therefore the question is moot.What would you do if you found out that God wasn't real?