What's going on in Israel?

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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,193
28,883
136
Basically you're projecting only good intentions on the Israelis while projecting only hostile intent on Palestinians. You have set up a tidy world view where the Israelis could only possibly be driven by thoughts of rainbows and puppy dog tails while setting up the Palestinians as only thinking of the destruction of Israel. If only the Palestinians would just stop fighting back, everything would be peaceful. The cliché of the late 60s - early 70s of "no justice - no peace" is actually true. Until a just settlement can be reached, the violence will not stop.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I agree it was not always their intent and that the Palestinians squandered a legitimate chance for peace. I think it is their plan now though and has been for quite some time.


I am personally doubtful. Years have gone by without major disturbances in the past and Israel has been content to continue on this path. I think they have given up.

I would love nothing better than to be super wrong about this but I sincerely doubt a different outcome.

Yes, I'm doubtful too. Your prediction might be wrong, but sadly, it's probably correct.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
There was an interesting debate on Zionism a few years back. Worth a watch if you haven't seen it.

 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,038
21,165
136
Basically you're projecting only good intentions on the Israelis while projecting only hostile intent on Palestinians. You have set up a tidy world view where the Israelis could only possibly be driven by thoughts of rainbows and puppy dog tails while setting up the Palestinians as only thinking of the destruction of Israel. If only the Palestinians would just stop fighting back, everything would be peaceful. The cliché of the late 60s - early 70s of "no justice - no peace" is actually true. Until a just settlement can be reached, the violence will not stop.

It's pure revisionist history.

Also, it's saying forcibly creating an ethno state based on religious manifest destiny while utilizing colonialist powers was a great fucking plan, if only those dumb pesky natives went along with it exactly how they were told to from day one.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Basically you're projecting only good intentions on the Israelis while projecting only hostile intent on Palestinians.

Oh, so that's why I just stated above in response Eski's post that the Israeli right, who has been in power since 2000, is trying to push the Pals out. Because I think all the Israelis all have nothing but good intentions.

We had one poster here who claimed that Israeli leadership has always had bad intentions. I disagreed, citing the leftists who ran the country in the 90's. So who here is ascribing one singular motive, good or bad, to the Israelis? It isn't me.

You have set up a tidy world view where the Israelis could only possibly be driven by thoughts of rainbows and puppy dog tails while setting up the Palestinians as only thinking of the destruction of Israel.

This has nothing to do with what I've written here. Stop trying to paraphrase me. If you have a real argument, make it.

If only the Palestinians would just stop fighting back, everything would be peaceful. The cliché of the late 60s - early 70s of "no justice - no peace" is actually true. Until a just settlement can be reached, the violence will not stop.

They aren't fighting back. They are just fighting, and getting hit back with greater force. Those rockets are being fired by a group who are not interested in a Palestinian state, who want to conquer Israel and expel all the Jews there. How convenient for you to forget who is firing the rockets. It's a curious amnesia which runs through so many posts in this thread.

And no, stopping the rockets absolutely does not guaranty peace. But continuing them definitively guarantees the opposite.

"No justice, no peace" is damn slogan. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the realities of the world we live in. You want the Pals to keep throwing rockets at Israel because you think Israel is the bad actor here, not because it's the right thing for the Palestinians to actually do.

But hey, in another 50 years, after 70 years of Likud rule have passed, Eski's prediction will probably come true. The settlements will have expanded to the point where there is no viable state and most of the Pals will have to migrate to neighboring Arab states. Oh, but at least they'll have gotten some "justice" by killing a few Israelis along the way, right?

You cannot right every historical wrong. If everyone believed that, grievances would persist forever. At some point, you have to consider your future as a people. And throwing more rockets, whatever "justice" you think it brings, is not the path forward to any sort of viable future.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,193
28,883
136
Of course they are fighting back. They are fighting back against the daily insults of checkpoints, the daily brutality of the Israeli state, the daily injustice. Simply because Israel's ongoing, unrelenting oppression of the Palestinians doesn't make the news doesn't mean that it isn't happening. Apartheid (Jim Crow if you prefer) is always implemented through brutality.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
It's pure revisionist history.

Also, it's saying forcibly creating an ethno state based on religious manifest destiny while utilizing colonialist powers was a great fucking plan, if only those dumb pesky natives went along with it exactly how they were told to from day one.

Chickenshit.

You, like Vic, have ignored virtually every factual point I've made. Now you reply to another poster saying I'm lying about history. Because you googled and found an event in 1919 of which I was unaware, and of which I have argued doesn't fundamentally change the point I was making. You'll stick to that and ignore everything else, because that is all you have.

You have an explanation for the Pals refusal to accept statehood multiple times, and their failure to call for independence when under Arab rule? Of course you don't, and we both know it.

You're not arguing in good faith here.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,038
21,165
136
Chickenshit.

You, like Vic, have ignored virtually every factual point I've made. Now you reply to another poster saying I'm lying about history. Because you googled and found an event in 1919 of which I was unaware, and of which I have argued doesn't fundamentally change the point I was making. You'll stick to that and ignore everything else, because that is all you have.

You have an explanation for the Pals refusal to accept statehood multiple times, and their failure to call for independence when under Arab rule? Of course you don't, and we both know it.

You're not arguing in good faith here.

I linked up where the Palestinian Arabs did not want to follow the plan of Syrian Arabs for their little spot in the woods. Clearly they wanted their own identity.

You keep saying the Palestinians should have taken the first two offers for statehood, just like that. I mean fuck it if they had any objections, they just should have done it, because, after all, Western Christian nations needed a place for the Jews they'd been oppressing, and hell, it was a religious manifest destiny, so the dumb natives should have just accepted that reality. Religious manifest destiny to create an ethno state. I mean it's crazy that you people just think it's all normal. It's nutty when the evangelicals want to do it, and it's nuts when Islamic nations try to do it.

Zionists just sound nuts to me. Just like insane Islamists.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Of course they are fighting back. They are fighting back against the daily insults of checkpoints, the daily brutality of the Israeli state, the daily injustice. Simply because Israel's ongoing, unrelenting oppression of the Palestinians doesn't make the news doesn't mean that it isn't happening. Apartheid (Jim Crow if you prefer) is always implemented through brutality.

Oh, it most definitely "makes the news." Every time an Israeli soldier so much as shoves a Palestinian, it's all over the BBC, the press in Europe, and certain press in the US (in the US, major outlets cover the larger events, while lefty outlets cover every hang nail).

I remember back in '03 when the Israelis were retaliating against the Pals for suicide bombings. The reprisals got more press than the bombings. And in comparison to what was going on in the Sudan, where a real genocide was taking place, where over 300,000 people were slaughtered? You barely heard a peep. You were far more likely to hear about one or two Palestinians dying than 1000 Darfuris being cut down by a firing squad.

Elsewhere, in the UN, there is an entire organization whose purpose is to "investigate" Israel for human rights abuses, while ignoring humans rights abuses practically everywhere else.

Those who dislike Israel are quite vocal, in the press, in international organizations, in non-profits, on the internet, you name it. If anything, there is a large size magnifying glass over everything they do.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I linked up where the Palestinian Arabs did not want to follow the plan of Syrian Arabs for their little spot in the woods. Clearly they wanted their own identity.

You just keep repeating the same point and ignoring what I have said in reply.

You keep saying the Palestinians should have taken the first two offers for statehood, just like that. I mean fuck it if they had any objections, they just should have done it, because, after all, Western Christian nations needed a place for the Jews they'd been oppressing, and hell, it was a religious manifest destiny, so the dumb natives should have just accepted that reality. Religious manifest destiny to create an ethno state. I mean it's crazy that you people just think it's all normal. It's nutty when the evangelicals want to do it, and it's nuts when Islamic nations try to do it.

Zionists just sound nuts to me. Just like insane Islamists.

Yes, they had objections. They said what the objections were. That there was going to be a Jewish state in Palestine along with the Arab state. That was their objection, and they were not quiet about it. They were being forced to accept that a portion of Palestine would be a country with a Jewish majority. They didn't want that. They didn't want ANY Jews there. Those poor, poor Palestinians though, being forced by evil colonialists to accept JEWS in their midst, of all things. The inhumanity of it.

The Jews, on the other hand, readily accepted a two state solution.

And you're calling the Jews "nutty," and saying they were the racists? And by Jews, I mean nearly all the Jews in the world then and now. When you saying Zionists are "nutty" and are like "insane Islamists" you are saying that about the bulk of Jews in the world.

And not just nutty, but racist. No, of course the Jews didn't want to have a country where they were in the majority because living as a minority had brought nothing but misery and slaughter. No it couldn't have been that. What they really wanted was an "ethnostate" to satisfy their notions of racial superiority.

Your logic is a total inversion of reality and is, quite frankly, an offensive re-casting of Jewish intentions during that timeframe. It's OK though, as Jewish intentions have always been interpreted as nefarious plots, for thousands of years. They're used to it.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I'm not 'dog-whistling' anything. I'm not an anti-Semite; they are just another ethnic group in America. Apparently I am ignorant of some neo-nazi propaganda or something. I just feel like I'm wasting my time responding to you because you have a stick up your butt over what I said and you can't or won't get over it. Go harass someone else, please.

Upon reflection, I give you the benefit of the doubt on this. My apologies if I was overly harsh. Others in this thread have said things much worse than what you said.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,265
136

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,044
37,233
136
Sure seems like the bar for Middle East peace is a lil bit higher than simply bribing Arab nations to recognize Israel, something they were probably going to do eventually anyway.
 
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Racan

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2012
1,145
2,078
136

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,044
37,233
136
Apparently the IDF just blew up a building in Gaza that housed a bunch of media offices (Al Jazerra, AP, etc). This comes after it seems they lied to the press about starting ground ops inside Gaza to lure out Hamas fighters.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,267
5,714
146
Apparently the IDF just blew up a building in Gaza that housed a bunch of media offices (Al Jazerra, AP, etc). This comes after it seems they lied to the press about starting ground ops inside Gaza to lure out Hamas fighters.

I saw that after clicking the trending on a twitter link someone posted in another thread.

Weird was all the right wing nut job posts by Indians that were showing up alongside it. Kinda curious if its bots or paid troll farms or what but was kinda odd.
 
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