Whats the diff between an assault rifle & a rifle w/hi-cap mag?

[HumblePie]

New York state just passed a law that is would define almost any firearm as an assault weapon and goes too far IMHO.

As for me, I would define an assault rifle or pistol as any firearm that is capable of fully automatic fire, any semiautomatic weapon with a more than six round clip, any shotguns with a barrel length shorter than 18" ( already covered under existing guns law), or any pistol with a detachable stock. ( Again already covered by existing gun laws. I might makes a semi automatic rifle exception for some weapons capable of firing a cartridge to larger than a .22LR.

After than we get on a slippery slope with after market parts. Because law abiding buyer X may buy firearm Y, often a variant of the M-16 that fires .223 Ar-15 cartridge, and suddenly use aftermarket parts to make it into far more lethal assault type weapons that should be banned.

As I would also ban the sale or possession of such parts and add a mandatory stiff prison sentence for mere possession, regardless if installed in any weapon or not!

After that and sadly because gun theft is so frequent, gun registration along with a data base of serial numbers will be needed to track stolen guns. That and background checks can greatly reduce but not totally eliminate senseless gun violence without infringing on the right to own and use firearms.

And in closing, one of the many reasons I oppose the NRA, is because, if legitimate firearm owners can't come up and support sensible firearms laws, we will end up with New York State type laws drafted by idiots instead. And when those laws predictably don't work, the idiots will pass even more idiotic laws.

80 years ago the NRA was in the forefront of drafting sensible gun laws, but lately the NRA is the main problem and not any part of any solution, as the NRA has turning into a socially irresponsible lobbying organization.

LOL and your use of the word "sensible" like the media lately when it comes to gun control laws.

Your definition of sensible and my definition are not the same thing here. You are trying to apply an adjective that has no bearing unless a common definition can be applied. What I find sensible is the removal of the 1986 ban and the then we'll discuss thing further.

Sensible gun control laws would be the following:
1) Any law abiding American that can pass a criminal and mental health background check should be allowed to purchase and own any firearm they want (including fully automatic weapons) in their own and on their property as they see fit.

2) Unless taking a handgun to a range or another designated area for safe discharging for the intent of practice/hunting, or to take a firearm to be repaired, or to take a firearm to be sold/traded, or to place the in a personal vehicle. Public carrying of a handgun on a person requires a license. Handgun licenses require full training which would include gun safety, crisis training, and handling training. Reasonable fee for training may be given, but no additional fees to apply for the license may be incurred (ie no "tax" for the license). No fully automatic handguns for conceal carry licenses will be allowed.

3) See #2 for long guns except the license required to conceal carry as long guns aren't allowed for conceal carry protection.

4) Removal of "gun free" zones. If a person is allowed to publicly be in a place legally and they are legally allowed to carry concealed, then they should be able to carry. The exceptions would be:

Private property owners can deny legal handgun carry owners to bring their handguns on to their property

Any public place with an armed protection service in place can asked to check in a concealed carry holder's handgun for the duration that the gun owner is at that public venue.



That would be it. Leave the actual training methods and guidelines for concealed carry licenses up to the state level. To me, that would be sensible.

 

[imagoon]

New York state just passed a law that is would define almost any firearm as an assault weapon and goes too far IMHO.

As for me, I would define an assault rifle or pistol as any firearm that is capable of fully automatic fire, any semiautomatic weapon with a more than six round clip, any shotguns with a barrel length shorter than 18" ( already covered under existing guns law), or any pistol with a detachable stock. ( Again already covered by existing gun laws. I might makes a semi automatic rifle exception for some weapons capable of firing a cartridge to larger than a .22LR.

After than we get on a slippery slope with after market parts. Because law abiding buyer X may buy firearm Y, often a variant of the M-16 that fires .223 Ar-15 cartridge, and suddenly use aftermarket parts to make it into far more lethal assault type weapons that should be banned.

As I would also ban the sale or possession of such parts and add a mandatory stiff prison sentence for mere possession, regardless if installed in any weapon or not!

After that and sadly because gun theft is so frequent, gun registration along with a data base of serial numbers will be needed to track stolen guns. That and background checks can greatly reduce but not totally eliminate senseless gun violence without infringing on the right to own and use firearms.

And in closing, one of the many reasons I oppose the NRA, is because, if legitimate firearm owners can't come up and support sensible firearms laws, we will end up with New York State type laws drafted by idiots instead. And when those laws predictably don't work, the idiots will pass even more idiotic laws.

80 years ago the NRA was in the forefront of drafting sensible gun laws, but lately the NRA is the main problem and not any part of any solution, as the NRA has turning into a socially irresponsible lobbying organization.

Without the goal of making this a P&N cesspool... 6 rounds / nothing larger than .22 seems over restrictive to me. You would eliminate the value of semi-auto handguns at that point and even some revolvers. I personally think 10 round limit is silly also. I enjoy my 9mm sig and 20 round magazines etc. The other issue is that in my opinion, restricting magazine size doesn't have whole lot of effect unless you get way down there (ie 6 / 4 etc) because even an amateur like myself having taken training classes can tactically swap a magazine in about the time it takes to fire 2 rounds.

I do however lean towards getting rid of the loop hole like gun shows by passing wait periods and trying to improve background and mental health checks. I also think we need to meet someplace in the middle and decide what is truly not needed (ie do you really need a .50 call 8 barrel Gatling gun to hunt etc) makes those items or parts illegal and then properly enforce the laws that are already out there.

Of course you are correct about theft. The only way to truly eliminate gun violence is to completely remove guns (I mean that in the sense as if the Disney Genie did it magically not in reality) but I am also in the opinion that if you could poof them all away, we would just violently hit each other with sticks or rocks. (for those seething or foaming at the mouth, I mean this in a truly 'outside of reality' way.)

 

[phucheneh]

The magazine thing will never make any sense. What do a lot of mass shootings have in common? The person was/is/went crazy and started collecting 'equipment' with a purpose prior to the shooting. The 'crazy' issue aside, what does that tell you about mag cap rules for those who have no intent on following the law and free time on their hands?

They're worthless. A magazine is a metal or plastic box box with a spring. If you give me a five round mag, a welder, and a grinder (harbor freight stuff would work fine), I could make a mag that touched the floor if I really wanted.

Clearly the solution is to outlaw tools, scrap steel, and springs.

 

[Kadarin]

This is the Ruger Mini-14. It uses the same bullets (.223) as the AR-15.

But it's made of wood and obviously doesnt look like an assault rifle that u see on TV.

So is there a definition of assault rifle?

There is no "hi-cap" magazine in this picture. There is, however, a standard capacity magazine.

 

[lxskllr]

They're worthless. A magazine is a metal or plastic box box with a spring. If you give me a five round mag, a welder, and a grinder (harbor freight stuff would work fine), I could make a mag that touched the floor if I really wanted.

Clearly the solution is to outlaw tools, scrap steel, and springs.

You must be German. That's way too much engineering. I'd just swap magazines :^D

 

[phucheneh]

You must be German. That's way too much engineering. I'd just swap magazines :^D

Nah. I just like engineering solutions to problems (not that I would, you know, have the whole 'high capacity for mass murder' need...).

Mags are pretty quick to swap. It's the storage of said mags, and quickly extracting them from said storage.

When I was playing airsoft a lot, the biggest problem was empties (solution: two big roll-up dump pouches). But that's probably not a worry if you're planning on, uh, checking out.

 

[highland145]

There is no "hi-cap" magazine in this picture. There is, however, a standard capacity magazine.

For some reason, I thought you were Canadian, but...QFT.

 

[sourceninja]

LOL and your use of the word "sensible" like the media lately when it comes to gun control laws.

Your definition of sensible and my definition are not the same thing here. You are trying to apply an adjective that has no bearing unless a common definition can be applied. What I find sensible is the removal of the 1986 ban and the then we'll discuss thing further.

Sensible gun control laws would be the following:
1) Any law abiding American that can pass a criminal and mental health background check should be allowed to purchase and own any firearm they want (including fully automatic weapons) in their own and on their property as they see fit.

2) Unless taking a handgun to a range or another designated area for safe discharging for the intent of practice/hunting, or to take a firearm to be repaired, or to take a firearm to be sold/traded, or to place the in a personal vehicle. Public carrying of a handgun on a person requires a license. Handgun licenses require full training which would include gun safety, crisis training, and handling training. Reasonable fee for training may be given, but no additional fees to apply for the license may be incurred (ie no "tax" for the license). No fully automatic handguns for conceal carry licenses will be allowed.

3) See #2 for long guns except the license required to conceal carry as long guns aren't allowed for conceal carry protection.

4) Removal of "gun free" zones. If a person is allowed to publicly be in a place legally and they are legally allowed to carry concealed, then they should be able to carry. The exceptions would be:

Private property owners can deny legal handgun carry owners to bring their handguns on to their property

Any public place with an armed protection service in place can asked to check in a concealed carry holder's handgun for the duration that the gun owner is at that public venue.



That would be it. Leave the actual training methods and guidelines for concealed carry licenses up to the state level. To me, that would be sensible.

I'd support that.

 

[pontifex]

Also, from Wikipedia:



.22LR AR-15 plinker, solid stock, no bayonet lug, but with pistol grip and threaded barrel: weapon of mass destruction

But you're totally cool to sling a grenade launcher underneath your harmless Mini-14.

i thought .22 caliber weapons were exempt or usually not included anyway.

 

[pontifex]

Since when was an RPG classified as a firearm, troll?

i agree that he's trolling but the 2A says arms, not firearms.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


According to the 2A, I don't see why we aren't allowed. The 2A is the fight against tyrannical governments. It's to allow us to fight them on equal terms.

 

[pontifex]

All guns are the same, the only difference is how many lives they destroy and tears they bring.

destroy the lives of criminals who want to harm you or your family
tears of your and your family when they are harmed by criminals

 

[BladeVenom]

Yes, the definition of an assault rifle states that it is capable of select-fire (i.e. - single, burst, and or/full auto) and has a removable magazine. Your Mini-14 doesn't fit the defnition, neither does any of the millions of civilian AR-15 variants or other firearms capable of semi-automatic fire ONLY.

And lower powered rifle ammo.

The M-14 meets the first two conditions, but fires the much more powerful 7.62x54. So it's a battle rifle.

Of course the terminology doesn't matter. Liberal politicians are too stupid to know the difference, and the media is nothing but propaganda.

 

[BladeVenom]

The NRA was right about Obama. All those who said the NRA was fear mongering, have now been proven wrong.

 

[Rumpltzer]

The magazine thing will never make any sense. What do a lot of mass shootings have in common? The person was/is/went crazy and started collecting 'equipment' with a purpose prior to the shooting. The 'crazy' issue aside, what does that tell you about mag cap rules for those who have no intent on following the law and free time on their hands?

They're worthless. A magazine is a metal or plastic box box with a spring. If you give me a five round mag, a welder, and a grinder (harbor freight stuff would work fine), I could make a mag that touched the floor if I really wanted.

Clearly the solution is to outlaw tools, scrap steel, and springs.

Too much thought involved.


High-cap mags are already banned in California. And by that, I mean that we're not allowed to have more than 10rnd mags in the rifles. The mag rules for handguns has a caveat, and I won't get into it.

Anyway, in California we are already limited to a max of 10rnds in a long gun. The way this translates is that people insert a block (a hunk of plastic) into a 20 or 30rnd magazine and then the magazine is "permanently sealed" (commonly with epoxy or a rivet). You can either buy magazines in modified form, or you can buy magazine parts and make the mods yourself.

See, you can't have high-cap mags... but you can have the parts... you just can't assemble the parts without the 10rnd limiting mods. Go to a gun show, and you see parts being sold as sets. Some out of state vendors offer to disassemble mags (for a small fee) and then send those parts to California.

This is where our laws have gotten us.

If national laws follow something similar (it's a big "if"), then you might not need to be a machinist to have a high cap mag.

 

[malbojah]

i agree that he's trolling but the 2A says arms, not firearms.

bear arms?

 

[Arkaign]

And lower powered rifle ammo.

The M-14 meets the first two conditions, but fires the much more powerful 7.62x54. So it's a battle rifle.

Of course the terminology doesn't matter. Liberal politicians are too stupid to know the difference, and the media is nothing but propaganda.

M-14 =! Mini 14, though it's confusing. The M14 is a certifiable beast, the Mini 14 is a plinker by comparison (along with all 223/5.56 imho).

 

[Lemon law]

i thought .22 caliber weapons were exempt or usually not included anyway.

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As you pontifex simply are not thinking rationally when it comes to lethality in any given bullet.

As there are four factors at work here.

(1) The diameter of the bullet, as a O.22 bullet are all the diameter even if they sometimes play fast and loose with bore size designations As they may call it a .223, and .222, or a 22-250.

(2) When the real factor that defines lethality is muzzle velocity. Something like a .22 long rifle comes out muzzle at something like 1365 feet per second firing a 40 grain bullet. Something like a Ar-15 bullet fires a heavier bullet at triple the velocity. And with resulting bullet carrying energy proportionate with the square of the velocity, the muzzle energy is far higher along along with the lethality.

(3) Once velocities beyond about 2500 feet per second are achieved, a new factor of hydrological shock greatly increases lethality.

(4) IMHO, the AR-15 military round violates the Geneva convention, because it has insufficient spin to stabilize its longer bullet. As a result it tends to turn sidewards and do far more damage when it hits flesh. Sure even a .22 caliber LR round can kill the average 5'th grader only if it hits a vital spot, but if a gun nut want to achieve success in killing 5'th graders you can't beat the Ar-15 round when your aim can be far less precise. Somehow, as a legitimate sports hunter, I don't select guns useful for only killing 5'th graders or adults. Especially when its illegal to hunt deer size game with a .22 caliber rifle in 50 out of 50 US States.

 

[JDMnAR1]

There is no "hi-cap" magazine in this picture. There is, however, a standard capacity magazine.

Actually, for the pictured Mini-14 that is a "hi-cap" magazine. Unlike most AR-15s, The standard capacity magazine it ships with is a 5 rounder.

 

[JDMnAR1]

And lower powered rifle ammo.

The M-14 meets the first two conditions, but fires the much more powerful 7.62x54. So it's a battle rifle.

Of course the terminology doesn't matter. Liberal politicians are too stupid to know the difference, and the media is nothing but propaganda.

The M-14 is 7.62 x 51, and the terminology was exactly my point. OP asked for the definition of assault rifle, which is a legitimate class of weapon with the characteristics specified. Politicians and media invented "assault weapon" to demonize a class of weapons based upon cosmetic characteristics that have no bearing on the functionality of said weapons, knowing full well that the uninformed populace would make the incorrect jump to assault rifles.

 

[imagoon]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't 40 Grain .223 around 1,910 ft/s 324 ft·lbf (439 J) and 5.56 62 Grain (smallest 5.56 I could find) 3,100 ft/s 1,303 ft·lbf (1,767 J)?

That doesn't really look like 3x the muzzle velocity. The joules rating makes sense with square of the energy though.

The 62 grain 5.56 bullet had the highest MV. All the larger 5.56 bullets i found were smaller.

 

[skyking]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you pontifex simply are not thinking rationally when it comes to lethality in any given bullet.

As there are four factors at work here.

(1) The diameter of the bullet, as a O.22 bullet are all the diameter even if they sometimes play fast and loose with bore size designations As they may call it a .223, and .222, or a 22-250.

(2) When the real factor that defines lethality is muzzle velocity. Something like a .22 long rifle comes out muzzle at something like 1365 feet per second firing a 40 grain bullet. Something like a Ar-15 bullet fires a heavier bullet at triple the velocity. And with resulting bullet carrying energy proportionate with the square of the velocity, the muzzle energy is far higher along along with the lethality.

(3) Once velocities beyond about 2500 feet per second are achieved, a new factor of hydrological shock greatly increases lethality.

(4) IMHO, the AR-15 military round violates the Geneva convention, because it has insufficient spin to stabilize its longer bullet. As a result it tends to turn sidewards and do far more damage when it hits flesh. Sure even a .22 caliber LR round can kill the average 5'th grader only if it hits a vital spot, but if a gun nut want to achieve success in killing 5'th graders you can't beat the Ar-15 round when your aim can be far less precise. Somehow, as a legitimate sports hunter, I don't select guns useful for only killing 5'th graders or adults. Especially when its illegal to hunt deer size game with a .22 caliber rifle in 50 out of 50 US States.

That last statement is false. Several states allow the use of .223 for deer hunting. I don't have an interest in it beyond the truth; I don't hunt or belong to the NRA.

 

[adairusmc]

.22 caliber centerfire is the minimum in Oregon for deer. I have taken a large mule deer with an AR, it can be quite effective with the proper bullet.

 

[LTC8K6]

Insufficient spin to stabilize would result in terrible accuracy, which we do not see. The .223 and 5.56 round are both plenty accurate.

 

[boomhower]

An assault rifle is capable of full auto or burst fire. A semi automatic rifle is not an assault rifle, I don't care how many pistol grips, flash hider, or magazines you hang off of it. It's not an assault rifle.

 

[olds]