What's the easiest way to remove and preserve granite countertops - Calling Greenman!

[CPA]

I have an issue on my 10-foot granite countertop that has the kitchen sink and covers the dishwasher. There has been some past water damage that looks to have reduced the integrity of the cabinets such that the countertop has broken the grout to the back splash and sunk about 1/8th of an inch from the middle to the side with the dishwasher. It's enough that we cannot close the dishwasher door without using a jack to push the countertop back to it's original setting.

So, long story short, I need to replace the cabinets. However, I want to keep the countertop. I know it's glued to a plywood sheet and that sheet is connected to the cabinets. The only thing I could find so far are folks taking sledge hammers to their granite. I want to keep it and use it again. Any tips or steps to do so?

 

[nickbits]

Disconnect the plywood from the cabinets and remove it. Then carefully pry the plywood from the granite. Make sure you use steady even pressure with whatever you have to do, or it may crack.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Another method would be to flip the granite upside down on a solid surface (padded concrete floor) and use a circular saw set slightly below the plywood depth to score it in multiple places. This would allow you to break the plywood into smaller pieces without damaging the granite. Just make sure you lock the depth and don't set it more than the depth of the plywood. You want to go through 95% of it and pry that last little bit with a chisel or hand tool.

 

[CPA]

Any thoughts on the best way to remove the plywood? Is it just use a crowbar?

 

[Scarpozzi]

Any thoughts on the best way to remove the plywood? Is it just use a crowbar?

Depends on what they used to glue it down. Construction adhesive is tough to break....if they just used caulk, it shouldn't be difficult.

I would probably start with 1" wood chisel after scoring the plywood (mainly because of it's small size) and use a very lightweight hammer to try to chisel between the two materials. I wouldn't use a bigger tool unless you got an opening between the two and simply needed more leverage.

The thickness of the granite would make a difference on how bold I would be with the amount of pressure I'd use.

If you own a heat gun, you could hit the back of the plywood with that to help loosen the adhesive. Many adhesives will get more pliable when heat is applied, but it often takes a lot...and going through 1/2"-3/4" plywood, that may take a long time to warm it up enough to make a difference. Once you get a section removed, you may have more room to get heat/leverage to work.

 

[Greenman]

If they put the granite down with epoxy, it's going to be very tough to get it off.
I'd tear the cabinets out from under the top, supporting it as you go, then slide the new cabinets in under the old plywood. Chances are most of the old plywood is in good shape, though you might need to clean up a few areas that need support. If there is rot where it needs support, take out as much of it as you can and fill the void with bondo.
Removing the top entirely would be better, but it will be very weak at the sink cut out.

It's doable, but it's going to take some time and effort.

A picture of the top in question would help, and one of the failing cabinet.

Another thought, if it's just one cabinet that's bad, rebuild it right in place, and maybe add a piece of steel angle over the dishwasher opening.

 

[CPA]

If they put the granite down with epoxy, it's going to be very tough to get it off.
I'd tear the cabinets out from under the top, supporting it as you go, then slide the new cabinets in under the old plywood. Chances are most of the old plywood is in good shape, though you might need to clean up a few areas that need support. If there is rot where it needs support, take out as much of it as you can and fill the void with bondo.
Removing the top entirely would be better, but it will be very weak at the sink cut out.

It's doable, but it's going to take some time and effort.

A picture of the top in question would help, and one of the failing cabinet.

Another thought, if it's just one cabinet that's bad, rebuild it right in place, and maybe add a piece of steel angle over the dishwasher opening.

Good thought, but at 12 years old and some other issues with the cabinets, I think I'm intent on replacing them. Also, the builders put the cabinets in first, then tiled, which to me is a horrible idea. It makes replacing the dishwasher an almost impossible task. Therefore, I'd like to tile all the way to the wall. This will call for complete removal.

 

[Greenman]

Good thought, but at 12 years old and some other issues with the cabinets, I think I'm intent on replacing them. Also, the builders put the cabinets in first, then tiled, which to me is a horrible idea. It makes replacing the dishwasher an almost impossible task. Therefore, I'd like to tile all the way to the wall. This will call for complete removal.

Cabinets first is the right way to do a kitchen. There are two reasons for this. First, it's a hell of a lot easier to replace flooring if it stops at the cabinet, and second is that you don't want to work over a finished floor. It's just too easy to do a lot of damage. The only work that should be done after finished floors is base board and paint touch up.
The trick is to build up the toe kicks on the cabinets by the thickness of the flooring, then you don't have an issue getting the dishwasher in and out.

 

[Humpy]

I have only ever seen or expected granite to be installed with a little silicone caulk, relying mostly on gravity to hold slabs in place. Hopefully that is the case here and some gentle prying and twisting will separate the stone from the subsurface.

I like cabinets installed first in some instances but have little issue working over finished floors. We see quite a bit of solid wood floors in kitchens so we'll often install and sand before cabinets and finish after. A lot of underlayment goes in before cabinets as well. I don't consider difficulty of floor replacement to be of much concern. A vast majority of the time the entire kitchen is getting replaced anyway. If not, it's not much work make a cut at the cabinets.

Regardless, the finished flooring should extend under all of the appliances.

 

[Greenman]

Around here the better installers put granite down with epoxy, and fill the seams with colored epoxy. I've seen construction adhesive used a couple of times, but they were both very low budget jobs. On my projects it's always epoxy, the risk of a failure isn't worth the twenty bucks I'd save by using cheaper material.

Cabinets over finished floors just never made sense to me, there is no benefit and some risk. I've seen it done often, and always assumed that whoever was running the project didn't understand the sequence of events. Finished floors under appliances is a given, though if the kitchen is hardwood I always install a piece of vinyl under the dish washer in case of a leak. Again, it's twenty bucks that could save thousands, a no brainer.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Most dishwashers have feet that can be adjusted for various heights to snug them under the cabinets. This is why it's nice working off an unfinished floor. They also typically connect with a 12/2 and are direct wired/permanently installed. It makes sense to give yourself that extra 3/4" of space

The way I typically deal handle kitchens is to floor under the fridge and range, but not the dishwasher. Most residential refridgerators come with wheels. While most ranges do not, they still tend to get a lot of food and gunk between them and cabinetry. I floor under them so they can be pulled out and the floor can be mopped/cleaned from time to time. This also makes up for differences in appliance depth if there is any difference between the cabinet and range if you can see under it.

 

[CPA]

Most dishwashers have feet that can be adjusted for various heights to snug them under the cabinets. This is why it's nice working off an unfinished floor. They also typically connect with a 12/2 and are direct wired/permanently installed. It makes sense to give yourself that extra 3/4" of space

The way I typically deal handle kitchens is to floor under the fridge and range, but not the dishwasher. Most residential refridgerators come with wheels. While most ranges do not, they still tend to get a lot of food and gunk between them and cabinetry. I floor under them so they can be pulled out and the floor can be mopped/cleaned from time to time. This also makes up for differences in appliance depth if there is any difference between the cabinet and range if you can see under it.

Mine does have adjustable feet, in the front. It has wheels in the back, which I've had to remove just to fit the dishwasher in. The opening was tight even before the countertop started sinking. right now the if I adjusted the feet any more, the top tray would roll out without any assistance. BTW, like most, my countertop has a bull nose to it.

 

[Humpy]

Around here the better installers put granite down with epoxy, and fill the seams with colored epoxy. I've seen construction adhesive used a couple of times, but they were both very low budget jobs. On my projects it's always epoxy, the risk of a failure isn't worth the twenty bucks I'd save by using cheaper material.

Cabinets over finished floors just never made sense to me, there is no benefit and some risk. I've seen it done often, and always assumed that whoever was running the project didn't understand the sequence of events. Finished floors under appliances is a given, though if the kitchen is hardwood I always install a piece of vinyl under the dish washer in case of a leak. Again, it's twenty bucks that could save thousands, a no brainer.

The choice of adhesive has very little to do with total cost, even on a "low budget job". Using thin stone, that even requires a substrate to adhere to, is a far more widespread method of cutting corners and saving money. That's what is lost in discussions such as these. Specifying quality 3cm stone set on a flat substrate is what actually mitigates the risk of failure, not the type of glue used.

The dissimilar physical properties of stone and wood (they have opposing reactions to changes in temperature and moisture) create a situation where a ridged, ultra-high strength bond could actually increase the possibility of failure. Epoxy makes sense when bonding stone to stone.

Unsubstantiated claims of the wondrous benefits of adhesives, sealants, and stuff like vinyl under the dishwasher (wouldn't it just divert water to another area of the floor in the event of a leak big enough to cause "thousands" in damages?), etc., are, IMO, just hollow sales ploys that are frowned upon in the construction industry I'm familiar with.

I do understand acceptable practice varies with locale though, so there probably isn't any conflict here.

 

[Greenman]

The choice of adhesive has very little to do with total cost, even on a "low budget job". Using thin stone, that even requires a substrate to adhere to, is a far more widespread method of cutting corners and saving money. That's what is lost in discussions such as these. Specifying quality 3cm stone set on a flat substrate is what actually mitigates the risk of failure, not the type of glue used.

The dissimilar physical properties of stone and wood (they have opposing reactions to changes in temperature and moisture) create a situation where a ridged, ultra-high strength bond could actually increase the possibility of failure. Epoxy makes sense when bonding stone to stone.

Unsubstantiated claims of the wondrous benefits of adhesives, sealants, and stuff like vinyl under the dishwasher (wouldn't it just divert water to another area of the floor in the event of a leak big enough to cause "thousands" in damages?), etc., are, IMO, just hollow sales ploys that are frowned upon in the construction industry I'm familiar with.

I do understand acceptable practice varies with locale though, so there probably isn't any conflict here.

The point of putting vinyl under the dish washer is to have any leaking water come out the front where you can see it. It won't help in a catastrophic failure, slow leaks are what you're trying to catch. I've seen several of those failures, and they were quite expensive to repair. Ten bucks worth of vinyl would have made the problem obvious before the subfloor and framing rotted out.
I don't follow what you're saying about adhesive or sealants, you always use whatever is appropriate for the task at hand. No one claims any of them are magical, in fact they are often quite specific about where and under what conditions they should be used. In the specific case of using silicon for installing granite, I've never heard of it being done. I don't see why it wouldn't work, but since I've never heard of it being done, it falls under the heading of "unproven method". Epoxy is the standard around here, it's a proven method that works long term, so that's what I require on my projects.

One fellow told me that some adhesives will leech solvents into some stone and create a stain, and that epoxy won't. I have no idea if that's true or not (isn't epoxy loaded with solvents?), but it doesn't sound completly crazy on the surface, so it becomes another reason to stick with what I know.

 

[stinkynathan]

Cabinets first is the right way to do a kitchen. There are two reasons for this. First, it's a hell of a lot easier to replace flooring if it stops at the cabinet, and second is that you don't want to work over a finished floor. It's just too easy to do a lot of damage. The only work that should be done after finished floors is base board and paint touch up.
The trick is to build up the toe kicks on the cabinets by the thickness of the flooring, then you don't have an issue getting the dishwasher in and out.

New subforum. Cool!

Sorry. I know this isn't the topic of the OP, but I can't let this one go.

This is most certainly NOT the case in our area for anything other than low budget remodel jobs. Installing flooring after cabinets means your finished/panelized ends can't be scribed to the finished floor, requiring a shoe. And shoe is tacky. Very tacky.

Most builders run that flooring wall to wall and the cabinets are installed right over the top. Very few will have our measurer draw the outline of the toe space so they can minimize flooring cost. Our crews carry moving blankets and work on them and don't even touch the floors. It's not that hard.

I understand that people don't want to spend money on flooring all the way to the wall under the cabinets. At the very least run enough flooring so your finished ends and the couple inches of cabinet in the toe space are sitting on finished floor.

Source: I work for a custom cabinet shop that ships 400+ kitchens a year. I was an installer for 2 years and part of my current role includes gathering feedback from our three install crews.

 

[DrPizza]

I would think that epoxy would be more desirable as an adhesive. It's dries solid and doesn't have any give. Maybe I'm overthinking it, and maybe the thickness/size of the granite makes this thought irrelevant, but when I did my ceramic engineering internship, we had a problem of a huge mall with our tile on the floor, and the tile was cracking. Problem turned out to be the adhesive that was used - it had a little give to it & allowed the tiles to rock slightly. (The contractor that installed it was responsible - it was recommended not to use that adhesive, but they used it to save money. VERY expensive mistake.) Also, I think this is what you would want to free the cabinets from the counter top: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1640VS-F.../dp/B00004SUP4 There's also a hand tool that does the same for about $20

 

[Greenman]

New subforum. Cool!

Sorry. I know this isn't the topic of the OP, but I can't let this one go.

This is most certainly NOT the case in our area for anything other than low budget remodel jobs. Installing flooring after cabinets means your finished/panelized ends can't be scribed to the finished floor, requiring a shoe. And shoe is tacky. Very tacky.

Most builders run that flooring wall to wall and the cabinets are installed right over the top. Very few will have our measurer draw the outline of the toe space so they can minimize flooring cost. Our crews carry moving blankets and work on them and don't even touch the floors. It's not that hard.

I understand that people don't want to spend money on flooring all the way to the wall under the cabinets. At the very least run enough flooring so your finished ends and the couple inches of cabinet in the toe space are sitting on finished floor.

Source: I work for a custom cabinet shop that ships 400+ kitchens a year. I was an installer for 2 years and part of my current role includes gathering feedback from our three install crews.

It's not about saving money on flooring, it's about a logical sequence of events. As I said above, you never work over finished floors if you don't have to, it's an added headache. Sure you can do it, and it works as long as you're careful, but there is no compelling reason to do it. No one benefits. The finished product isn't any better, and the floor is far easier to remove if it ever becomes necessary. Why spend three or four days working over a finished product for no reason? It's one of those things you do when it's necessary, but avoid when you don't have to.

Edit: almost forgot. I've never had any sort of issue finishing up against the end of a cabinet. You cut the flooring to fit and that's the end of it. Properly done there is no visible difference between the two methods.

 

[Greenman]

I would think that epoxy would be more desirable as an adhesive. It's dries solid and doesn't have any give. Maybe I'm overthinking it, and maybe the thickness/size of the granite makes this thought irrelevant, but when I did my ceramic engineering internship, we had a problem of a huge mall with our tile on the floor, and the tile was cracking. Problem turned out to be the adhesive that was used - it had a little give to it & allowed the tiles to rock slightly. (The contractor that installed it was responsible - it was recommended not to use that adhesive, but they used it to save money. VERY expensive mistake.) Also, I think this is what you would want to free the cabinets from the counter top: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1640VS-F.../dp/B00004SUP4 There's also a hand tool that does the same for about $20

On a counter top trapped by two walls, you could probably get away with elmers glue. But the point is that the adhesive is around .5% of the material cost, so why not use the best and avoid a call back? It's something I've never thought much about because the cost difference is effectively zero.

I've since done some searching and it turns out that some people recommend silicone as an adhesive for granite, even in the seams. Though I also found a few stories about it staining the stone. Since there is no compelling reason to change, I'll continue using the material I'm comfortable with.

 

[Humpy]

It's not about saving money on flooring, it's about a logical sequence of events. As I said above, you never work over finished floors if you don't have to, it's an added headache. Sure you can do it, and it works as long as you're careful, but there is no compelling reason to do it. No one benefits. The finished product isn't any better, and the floor is far easier to remove if it ever becomes necessary. Why spend three or four days working over a finished product for no reason? It's one of those things you do when it's necessary, but avoid when you don't have to.

Edit: almost forgot. I've never had any sort of issue finishing up against the end of a cabinet. You cut the flooring to fit and that's the end of it. Properly done there is no visible difference between the two methods.

I think a lot of time there is a visible difference. Tile installed and grouted up to a finished wood end panel will eventually show a visible gap (even with the flexible grouts) as the wood moves with changes in environment. With the end panel set on top of tile, or other flooring, that gap will never be apparent and I believe makes for a better product.

With cut-to-fit flooring how to address the need for expansion gaps for wood and some vinyl flooring where there is an end panel and no base shoe? Do underlayments go in before or after cabinets and how does that affect the ease of floor replacement (for ex: how to replace tile without replacing underlayment)? I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea that there is much benefit in considering ease of replacement when determining sequence.

I do agree that it is best to limit exposure of finished product to damage before being turned over to the customer. Often times the cabinets are more expensive/fragile than the floor around them and they take precedence to the customer. IME the cabinet installers and trim carpenters pay more attention to detail than the flooring guys. I'd rather have carpenters working over finished floors than floor installers working near finished cabinets, though both can be protected if needed.

I guess I could sum it all up by just saying that there is clearly several possible sequence of events that will best fit a given job. Sometimes it's about protecting finished work, sometimes it's about schedules and deadlines, or weather, or whims of the person writing the checks.

 

[Greenman]

All of that, and how you were taught.

A lot of the stuff I do, I don't even remember where or when I learned it. My standard answer when asked where I learned something is "genetic knowledge", and it's not far from true.

 

[Humpy]

I would think that epoxy would be more desirable as an adhesive. It's dries solid and doesn't have any give. Maybe I'm overthinking it, and maybe the thickness/size of the granite makes this thought irrelevant, but when I did my ceramic engineering internship, we had a problem of a huge mall with our tile on the floor, and the tile was cracking. Problem turned out to be the adhesive that was used - it had a little give to it & allowed the tiles to rock slightly. (The contractor that installed it was responsible - it was recommended not to use that adhesive, but they used it to save money. VERY expensive mistake.) Also, I think this is what you would want to free the cabinets from the counter top: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-1640VS-F.../dp/B00004SUP4 There's also a hand tool that does the same for about $20

A somewhat related analogy I make is to the (over)use of caulk in modern construction.

One builder tucks his raincoat into his pants and then uses the absolute best caulk available to seal up the seam so his junk doesn't get cold and wet. The other builder doesn't use any caulk at all, he just leaves his raincoat untucked.

If a certain material isn't required for the overall intent of the assembly then it's use should be fully examined. As you note, under stone counter tops the properties of some epoxy would make for a good dense gap filler. The question raised is why is there a need for a gap filler? If the assembly is of sound construction the counter can be used as intended without failure and without the need to fill a gap. Additionally, what overall benefit does epoxy's incredible adhesive property serve if, in the case of a counter top, the attachment of the plywood to the cabinets is far, far less robust than the attachment of the plywood to the stone material?

With the example of the tile floor the opposite conclusion occurs. Floor tiles are sometimes relatively thin and, to provide resistance to wear, hard and brittle. A strong, dense adhesive must be used over a dense/rigid subfloor or the floor assembly will fail when used as intended.

Edit: I should add that on tops with big overhangs and relatively small surface area I make sure the installer epoxies the crap out of it so it doesn't drop off unless there's catastrophic failure.