what's the "left" and what's the "right"

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
school a P&N noob please.
thx.

IMO, the terms are so garbled as to be counter-productive, and their use is very dishonest in terms of the descriptions not being very accurate about the members on the right.

They mean almost anything now - even moreso when you have those who say things about how 'they are left or right as it used to be, but not now'.

I think they mask the real views and behaviors of the people who are in the groups, just as "states' rights" masked the racism of adherents in opposing federally-mandated civil rights. For example, people on the right tend - but many are exceptions - to be especially drawn to 'follow authority' in their views. They tend to be members of churches who tell them the right views, to listen to right-wing media who tell them the right views. But you won't see that trait in any right-wing description of their own group.

(Go see the Nebor thread on how he changed his position on universal healthcare because Wal-Mart put out an ad saying it's a good thing for an example).

I think that was especially honest of him, many here likely have the same basic practice but won't admit it.

On the other hand, I have to say that as I've discussed, with the overwhelming number of complicated issues, none of us can be experts on everything, and I endorse and practice the identification of experts to help us reach positions - based on their track record being established at being good at it. So I've identified such experts like Gleen Greenwald, Paul Krugman, and Juan Cole in their respective areas of constitutional issues, economics, and the Middle East, who I can pretty reliably count on for good positions in those areas.

That's quite different than listening to a corporation like Wal-Mart, who has a very different agenda not that legitimate or good for the nation as even his fellow righty genx87 said.

I could try to help you with the definitions, but it's a pretty lengthy topic to even try to say anything accurate.

If I would summarize it in a sentence, I might say that the left tends to prioritize the outcome of policies as serving the universal human needs the best, while the right - well, it gets difficult here, I can't really think of what they're 'for', leaving what they're against, and even there trying to say they're against collectivist or 'big government' activities quickly needs clarification as most of them support the government in some areas such as the military, public schools, roads, police, etc. There are many sub-factions.

Perhaps even the most iconic 'right-wing' figure, the man who wrote 'The conscience of a Conservative', Barry Goldwater was later practically a member of the 'left' he disagreed so strongly with so much of what the so-called 'right' was, and he said he did not want association with them. His final planned book was with John Dean, who was also a 'former right-winger', laying out many of those disagreements.

In *practice*, in my opinion, the right consists largely of the big corporate interests selling, through the propaganda of the think tanks they run, to the public pro-corporate ideology.

That means people get all kinds of pretty words to use - just like 'states' rights' was a pretty phrase used for those who wanted to fight black civil rights but not say so.

And to be fair, it's not as if most of those people knew what they were doing - they didn't *think* they were racist for wanting to 'protect tradition' and such. Just as they don't know what they are doing now, as they buy the marketing hook, line and sinker not understanding the effects of the policies. No one was 'for' the economic crash - they were only for 'modernization of the financial system' and other such pretty words thay just happened to serve the interests of Wall Street at the expense of the nation.

But even senior people who are doing this are not often understanding it - Alan Greenspan was very senior, and caused a lot of it, but was surprised at the result.

So when a lefty says to a righty, "you support this terrible policy that causes harm", the righty doesn't agree, and they disagree - and vice versa.

Remember the Contras in Nicaragua? The Democrats saw the US acting as terrorists, hiring thugs to murder people - police, teachers, mayors, etc. - to force the citizens of Nicaragua to vote how they were told for the interests of big business who wanted to continue to exploit the Nicaraguans as they had under the previous Somoza regime. Ronal Reagan saw the Contras as the "moral equivalent of our founding fathers" fighting for freedom from tyranny.

Both couldn't be right - but that's the sort of disagreeement. There can be 'some truth' on both sides - no doubt there was some bad behavior by the Ortega government the right could point to - but on balance, one side was a lot more correct than the other. But it's very difficult to get them to notice that.

As with Nebor, it practically takes the leaders on one side saying they're wrong. There's probaly *nothing* liberal leaders could say to Nebor to have made him agree with them.

But now I'm crossing from the definitions to the problem of how blinding ideology is - including that of the so-called 'moderate' who can be more blind than left or right.

Not surprisingly, Al Gore invented non-partisanship - or at least, he wrote a book about the problems with our citizens' blinding by ideology I describe, "The Assault on Reason".

Anyone read it? You should. It's an eye-opener on these issues. And then you will likely undertand that as convenient as 'left' and 'right' are for categorizing the public's basic political views, they're more harm than good, really, and what's more important are the values and such.

The misleading and confused nature of the labels can easily be seen by how far one side's definition of the other's label is from the other side's definition.

I constantly see that here as I see some on the right defining the left as loving any government program or spending, loving deficits, hating the rich, loving tyranny, etc.

To be fair, I think may on the left misunderstand many on the right, too.

And so much of the situation is not really 'left' or 'right'. Chris Hedges wrote a book, "War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning', that describes the mass psychology in societies that pushes people to unite behind war and support it as much as they might have opposed it before it started. He mentions 'left' oriented friends of his in Argentina who wanted to overthrow corrupt military leaders until the leaders started the Falkland Islands war with England - at which point they supported the government, to Hedges' shock - and his observation that was why they did so, and how many wars can be similarly explained in human history. Indeed, George Orwell introdued 'permanent war' as an idea for maintaining the public's support for the government. Is that a 'left' or a 'right' issue? Neither.

However, in our two-party system, interests tend to latch on to one or the other side when there are two sides - or to try to dominate both parties when it's them versus the public.

So you tend to see 'labor' and plaintiffs' lawyers on the left, and the owners and big businesses they're at odds with on the right. Environemntalists left, polluters right.

Other interests such as Wall Street don't fit the two-sides model, and donate to both parties - note the heavy Goldman-Sachs presence with both Bush and Obama.

Sometimes, the whole 'left' and 'right' breakdown is viewed as designed to split the public in half to gut its power to unite and oppose the real enemis (see Goldman Sachs).

I think that's pushing it too far usually, but is worth understanding the idea because the effect is often just that.
 

BigJelly

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2002
1,717
0
0
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,403
1
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: senseamp
Left = intellectuals
Right = rednecks

The funny thing is that many people whom you'd call "right" kept it clean and civil. Then you chime in and start the insults... with Phokus in tow.

Color me surprised

Hit a nerve with you for some reason?

Not at all... I'm just amazed at your unprovoked self-righteous use of ignorant stereotypes.

Good work :thumbsup:
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: senseamp
Left = intellectuals
Right = rednecks

The funny thing is that many people whom you'd call "right" kept it clean and civil. Then you chime in and start the insults... with Phokus in tow.

Color me surprised

Hit a nerve with you for some reason?

Not at all... I'm just amazed at your unprovoked self-righteous use of ignorant stereotypes.

Good work :thumbsup:

So where's your outrage at his poster:

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Left= inner city ghettos
right= suburbs

but keep that faux outrage a flowing and maybe throw in a few crocodile tears for good measure. Is this some more of that "resonable conversation" you're so fond of???

:laugh:

 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems

That's VERY accurate. A wise man once said "Government isn't the solution to our problems, it is the problem."
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems

That's VERY accurate. A wise man once said "Government isn't the solution to our problems, it is the problem."

Another wise man once said "If you can't beat them, join them."
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,403
1
0
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: senseamp
Left = intellectuals
Right = rednecks

The funny thing is that many people whom you'd call "right" kept it clean and civil. Then you chime in and start the insults... with Phokus in tow.

Color me surprised

Hit a nerve with you for some reason?

Not at all... I'm just amazed at your unprovoked self-righteous use of ignorant stereotypes.

Good work :thumbsup:

So where's your outrage at his poster:

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Left= inner city ghettos
right= suburbs

but keep that faux outrage a flowing and maybe throw in a few crocodile tears for good measure. Is this some more of that "resonable conversation" you're so fond of???

:laugh:

His response was obviously a retaliation. I would expect a rational human being to notice nuances like the fact that he copied the exact format that senseamp used, but then again, you're not a rational human being.

Haven't you trolled enough for a day? How are you not vacationed/banned yet? You and a few other irrational, frothing-at-the-mouth lefties are the libs' winnars. You escalate threads to name calling and one-liner attacks that you think are witty and productive. You couldn't be more wrong. In fact, you have proven the subtle point I was making about senseamp and Phokus. Good job :thumbsup:
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: senseamp
Left = intellectuals
Right = rednecks

The funny thing is that many people whom you'd call "right" kept it clean and civil. Then you chime in and start the insults... with Phokus in tow.

Color me surprised

Hit a nerve with you for some reason?

Not at all... I'm just amazed at your unprovoked self-righteous use of ignorant stereotypes.

Good work :thumbsup:

So where's your outrage at his poster:

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Left= inner city ghettos
right= suburbs

but keep that faux outrage a flowing and maybe throw in a few crocodile tears for good measure. Is this some more of that "resonable conversation" you're so fond of???

:laugh:

I see your ass is still sore... don't worry... you should be able to sit down in a few days

His response was obviously a retaliation. I would expect a rational human being to notice nuances like the fact that he copied the exact format that senseamp used, but then again, you're not a rational human being.

Haven't you trolled enough for a day? How are you not vacationed/banned yet?

You couldn't be a bigger idiot if you were trying. LOL if you are so smug in your superiority why are you acting like I should be banned/vacationed? Do you not have the ability to shut your mouth and ignore me?

I guess your just not that smart??
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,403
1
0
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
You couldn't be a bigger idiot if you were trying. LOL if you are so smug in your superiority why are you acting like I should be banned/vacationed? Do you not have the ability to shut your mouth and ignore me?

I guess your just not that smart??

Seriously kid? What on Earth is your problem? Are you not capable of posting without attacking someone? Do you really get your teeth kicked in so badly at home/school/work that you have to come here to assert yourself in some twisted fashion?

You proved the subtle point I was making about senseamp... you, him, and a one or two others comprise the left's equivalent of a posse of winnars. You don't see any value in opposing viewpoints... you see your side, and everyone else is a "redneck" or an idiot that begs your childish attacks. And when people go to the effort to prove their side to you, you simply turn up the volume on those attacks (and apparently then turn to stalking). You do not think rationally. You have proven this. You find it much easier to just troll from thread to thread, slinging what you perceive to be witty one-liners. You must be proud, as your parents must be, as well. We should all weep for them.

Can I ignore you? Certainly. Consider it done. You are the bile that plagues this place. A cancer, if you will.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: nobodyknows
You couldn't be a bigger idiot if you were trying. LOL if you are so smug in your superiority why are you acting like I should be banned/vacationed? Do you not have the ability to shut your mouth and ignore me?

I guess your just not that smart??

Seriously kid? What on Earth is your problem? Are you not capable of posting without attacking someone? Do you really get your teeth kicked in so badly at home/school/work that you have to come here to assert yourself in some twisted fashion?

You proved the subtle point I was making about senseamp... you, him, and a one or two others comprise the left's equivalent of a posse of winnars. You don't see any value in opposing viewpoints... you should see your side, and everyone else is a "redneck" or an idiot that begs your childish attacks. And when people go to the effort to prove their side to you, you simply turn up the volume on those attacks (and apparently then turn to stalking). You do not think rationally. You have proven this. You find it much easier to just troll from thread to thread, slinging what you perceive to be witty one-liners. You must be proud, as your parents must be, as well. We should all weep for them.

Can I ignore you? Certainly. Consider it done. You are the bile that plagues this place. A cancer, if you will.
I don't know, can you?? The fewer responses I get out of you the better as far as I'm concerned.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
292
126
The Left is optimistic, positive, compassionate and a little naive. The Right is cautious, untrusting, selfish and wants to turn back the clock to the way things used to be.

The concept of the Left and the Right is irrelevant, except to maintain a diversion. A diversion to keep us so busy argueing and fighting that we won't notice that our representatives are not really representing who we are but who are beholden to corporations, the very wealthy, and the church. The two major political parties are just for show to make us think that our representatives really do what we want them to.

(edited for clarity)
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,403
1
0
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems

In all seriousness, to a total P&N noob, this is about the best informal description there is.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
Originally posted by: db
The Left and the Right is just a diversion. Both are beholden to corporations, the very wealthy, and the church. The left and the Right, or Democrats and Republicans, is just for show to make us think that our representatives really do what we want them to.

Great description. :thumbsup:

The sooner we wake up and realize they're two sides of the same coin, the better.
 

blahblah99

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 2000
2,689
0
0
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems

In all seriousness, to a total P&N noob, this is about the best informal description there is.

Yet they both do the opposite.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,001
113
106
Originally posted by: blahblah99
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems, get elected, winding up with enough of this rope to hang themselves.
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems, get elected, and prove it.

In all seriousness, to a total P&N noob, this is about the best informal description there is.

Yet they both do the opposite.

Fixed.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,050
3
0
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Left= inner city ghettos
right= suburbs

based on these definitions, i guess i'm in the middle then.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Left= inner city ghettos
right= suburbs

based on these definitions, i guess i'm in the middle then.

None of those definitions are good.

Generally the left as it exists in America, which is where you live I assume, tends towards greater individual freedom in a social sense (privacy rights, limiting police powers, abortion rights, etc... etc.) but significant government involvement in an economic sense. (minimum wage laws, corporate regulation, etc.) The right in America is for significant government involvement in a social sense (for many of the same things), but is for more freedom in an economic sense.

Of course America has 300 odd million people in it, and so real perspectives run the gamut between these positions. There are plenty of examples where the two sides switch (gun control for one), but generally that's the gist of it.

PS: I pretty much used 'left' as equivalent to Democrats and 'right' as equivalent to Republicans. It's not a particularly good measure, but how else are you going to break up a nation so big into 2 groups?
 

Dragula22

Member
Jul 9, 2004
95
0
0
Newb question: Are there regions where like-minded people live within a type of government they all want?

Can't liberals/conservatives live separately such that their quality of life isn't diminished by opposing views, yet remain as one as a country?


 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
Originally posted by: Dragula22
Newb question: Are there regions where like-minded people live within a type of government they all want?

Can't liberals/conservatives live separately such that their quality of life isn't diminished by opposing views, yet remain as one as a country?

Not really, their views on quite a few issues are mutually exclusive from one another. Say half of the country wants to go to war and the other half doesn't. Do we just send half our military? Also, no matter where you live the same divisions will occur. The left and the right in America have HUGE amounts in common with one another, and generally only split over relatively minor issues. If we split into Liberalistan and Conservatania, the people inside each of those countries would become the 'left' and the 'right' of their place respectively.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Left = believe that government is the answer to most of people's problems
Right = believe that government is the reason for most of people's problems

That's VERY accurate. A wise man once said "Government isn't the solution to our problems, it is the problem."

i didn't know that alzheimers made you a wise man
 
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