Whats the purpose of patriotism?

[miketheidiot]

As far as I can tell, nothing good has ever come from patriotism. In my opinion is is a means to coerce people into doing (or accomodating, etc) acts that are against their and the collective good. Patriotism serves as nothing but a divider between groups which should have no problem with each other, such as the Great war, and has served to facilitate some of the greatest crimes in human history. Why exactly should I, or anyone else, be "patriotic", or in any way subserviant to the state, when logically and morally it is not in my interest?

 

[yankeesfan]

Britain in World War 2? Nothing good came of the valient defense of their homeland that was orchestrated, in part, by patriotism? They fought off the Germans. I suppose that patriotism will never be completely right (noble) in any circumstance, because there will always be those opposed to what the patriotism was meant to facilitate. Thoughts?

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
As far as I can tell, nothing good has ever come from patriotism. In my opinion is is a means to coerce people into doing (or accomodating, etc) acts that are against their and the collective good. Patriotism serves as nothing but a divider between groups which should have no problem with each other, such as the Great war, and has served to facilitate some of the greatest crimes in human history. Why exactly should I, or anyone else, be "patriotic", or in any way subserviant to the state, when logically and morally it is not in my interest?

I imagine you are feeling disheartened because patriotism has been so twisted in America? If thats the case then I cannot blame you, I thought patriotism was about uniting and not dividing yet I see it used as a divider now which truly is sad since it is America and anyone can decide on their own how patriotic they want to be, and they should be able to do it without retribution from anyone.

 

[miketheidiot]

first i'm not sure how much patriotism did to spare britian The british could have been as patriotic as they wanted and they wouldn't have been saved w/o the channel. Also imo resistance to an invading force is not necessarily patriotism.

also, what was patriotism ment to facilitate?

 

[ntdz]

Patriotism doesn't really have a purpose, other than a common bond amoung people. We have a natural tendency to be loyal towards a group or country, and patriotism is just an extension of that. Why do friends defend friends when they get in a fight? It's the same thing as patriotism. Patriotism doesn't have a purpose, it's just a part of life.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
As far as I can tell, nothing good has ever come from patriotism. In my opinion is is a means to coerce people into doing (or accomodating, etc) acts that are against their and the collective good. Patriotism serves as nothing but a divider between groups which should have no problem with each other, such as the Great war, and has served to facilitate some of the greatest crimes in human history. Why exactly should I, or anyone else, be "patriotic", or in any way subserviant to the state, when logically and morally it is not in my interest?

I imagine you are feeling disheartened because patriotism has been so twisted in America? If thats the case then I cannot blame you, I thought patriotism was about uniting and not dividing yet I see it used as a divider now which truly is sad since it is America and anyone can decide on their own how patriotic they want to be, and they should be able to do it without retribution from anyone.

I'll agree to this in part. I wasn't much of a patriot before these recent trends became so strong either. I've always been a bit suspicious about it. I think of patriots the same way I think of an amd or intel or ati or nVidea fanboy, which i think shows fairly well were i'm coming from.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Patriotism doesn't really have a purpose, other than a common bond amoung people. We have a natural tendency to be loyal towards a group or country, and patriotism is just an extension of that. Why do friends defend friends when they get in a fight? It's the same thing as patriotism. Patriotism doesn't have a purpose, it's just a part of life.

1) does that make it right?
2) i see no historical tendency to patriotism, it seems to me that patriotism doesn't really appear until the 1800's roughly the time after the fench revolution and napoleonic wars. The french revolution is really the earliest example of patriotic fervor, and also apparently where it was invented.

 

[yankeesfan]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
first i'm not sure how much patriotism did to spare britian The british could have been as patriotic as they wanted and they wouldn't have been saved w/o the channel. Also imo resistance to an invading force is not necessarily patriotism.

also, what was patriotism ment to facilitate?

It was meant to facilitate victory.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: ntdz
Patriotism doesn't really have a purpose, other than a common bond amoung people. We have a natural tendency to be loyal towards a group or country, and patriotism is just an extension of that. Why do friends defend friends when they get in a fight? It's the same thing as patriotism. Patriotism doesn't have a purpose, it's just a part of life.

1) does that make it right?
2) i see no historical tendency to patriotism, it seems to me that patriotism doesn't really appear until the 1800's roughly the time after the fench revolution and napoleonic wars. The french revolution is really the earliest example of patriotic fervor, and also apparently where it was invented.

1) I don't think there is anything wrong with patriotism whatsoever. In fact, I think it's a good thing.
2) You don't think the Romans and Greeks were patriotic? How about the British? They were proud of their empires.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: ntdz
Patriotism doesn't really have a purpose, other than a common bond amoung people. We have a natural tendency to be loyal towards a group or country, and patriotism is just an extension of that. Why do friends defend friends when they get in a fight? It's the same thing as patriotism. Patriotism doesn't have a purpose, it's just a part of life.

1) does that make it right?
2) i see no historical tendency to patriotism, it seems to me that patriotism doesn't really appear until the 1800's roughly the time after the fench revolution and napoleonic wars. The french revolution is really the earliest example of patriotic fervor, and also apparently where it was invented.

1) I don't think there is anything wrong with patriotism whatsoever. In fact, I think it's a good thing.
2) You don't think the Romans and Greeks were patriotic? How about the British? They were proud of their empires.

1)please explain why you think its a good thing, because i can't find any redeeming aspects.
2)were the british patriotic before the napoleanic wars? Also pride is not necessarily equal to patriotism.

I suppose i had forgotten the romans. I believe virgil wrote "it is a sweet thing to die for ones country" or something along those lines. Anyways in latin it is "Dulche decorum est propatria mori" if someone would care to translate properly. So i guess they had a very similar ideas, at least among the elite. I'm not so sure how well that carried into the provinces, or even the streets of rome for that matter. There was also much more explicit coercion in the roman empire.

I don't believe that there was any kind of pan-grecian patrioic sentiment, and was mainly limited to civic pride and rivalry.

 

[raildogg]

Patriotism is taking pride in one's country. If you wish well for your country, you are a patriot. I wonder why people here seem to have a problem with patriots?

Nationalism is great and will always be great.

I realize that many people associate nationalism with the Nazis, but they forget that the Nazis hijacked it. if the nazis really cared for their country, why did they burn down many of the buildings and destroy their own as they were being beaten in ww2?

The Nazis were not patriots. Get real.

I don't wave the flag, I don't have a flag on my car or at my home, but I consider myself a patriot because I put country first. I want best for America. I want America to always be #1, never #2.

 

[magomago]

No, Nationalism is HORRIBLE. There is a BIG difference between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalism is blind love for your country, irregardless of right or wrong. To me there is nothing wrong with patriotism as a concep although the practice can hae a few flaws, but there is a world of problems with nationalism in both concept and application

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: magomago
No, Nationalism is HORRIBLE. There is a BIG difference between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalism is blind love for your country, irregardless of right or wrong. To me there is nothing wrong with patriotism as a concep although the practice can hae a few flaws, but there is a world of problems with nationalism in both concept and application

Well, I will always want the best for America even if America makes a terrible decision.

For example, if we invade Canada, I will still support this country and wish the best for it, even though I don't support the invasion.

I realize that is not the best example, but whatever.

Most people who want to liberate their country from a foreign oppressor are nationalists. They want a foreign power off their country. Was Ghandi a nationalist?

If a person is devoted to the success of his country, does that make him a nationlist?

 

[yllus]

The nation system is a byproduct of the human instinct for survival - one has a better chance to survive when united with like-minded people than by running solo. That means pooling labour, supplies, intelligence.

Person -> Group of people -> Village -> Town -> City -> City-state -> State -> Planet -> Confederation of Planets -> ... -> Profit

Over time, through shared economic, religious and moral views people have established a national value system that differentiates them from others. Relatively recently the ease of travel between nations has meant that those values aren't necessarily as strongly shared as they once were - but patriotism is still more than some blind pride in a abstract concept of a nation. It's pride in your values. Nothing wrong with that itself.

 

[Malfeas]

Here's an interesting quote from Hermann Goering:

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

And here's one from Theodore Roosevelt:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.



And one by Charles De Gaulle:

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

 

[JackStorm]

Ugh...It's horrible to see how the difference between Patriotism and nationalism and been twisted over the course of this century(Even in the dictionary)...

Here's a hint: Patriotism does not mean fallowing ones leaders blindly. That means the interests of ones nation and people is not always the same as that of ones leaders. Then there's nationalism, blindly fallowing your leaders and nation despite the horrors they commit against others and their own.

Love for ones country/nation is part of Patriotism, but not at the expense of the people. True patriots will know this and protect their people and country even from their own government if the need arises.

Nationalists have this annoying habit of thinking their leaders equal their country. So they blindly fallow everything their leaders do, because doing anything else in their mind would be 'unpatriotic'. So naturally, these people attack ANYONE who questions their leaders, because of their mistaken notion that their leaders want what's best for them and their country, when in reality their leaders could be screwing them and their country over to serve their own interests. It's happened over and over throughout history, and it will continue to happen as long as people blindly fallow their leaders.

Am I a patriot? Only in a sense that I would look out for the interests and wellbeing of the people. And if protecting the nation in which they live serves the interest of the people, then so be it.

In short: Roosevelt was dead on with his statment in Malfeas post.

Edit: I might also add that people would do well to heed the warning from that Goering quote. The warning being the second half of the quote.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: magomago
No, Nationalism is HORRIBLE. There is a BIG difference between patriotism and nationalism. Nationalism is blind love for your country, irregardless of right or wrong. To me there is nothing wrong with patriotism as a concep although the practice can hae a few flaws, but there is a world of problems with nationalism in both concept and application

Well, I will always want the best for America even if America makes a terrible decision.

For example, if we invade Canada, I will still support this country and wish the best for it, even though I don't support the invasion.

I realize that is not the best example, but whatever.

Most people who want to liberate their country from a foreign oppressor are nationalists. They want a foreign power off their country. Was Ghandi a nationalist?

If a person is devoted to the success of his country, does that make him a nationlist?

If the US makes a terrible decision, I ALSO want the best...but that does not mean that we should allow terrible decisions to propagate themselves and become the norm. However, that might also mean a difference in OPINION as to what a terrible decision is.

If we invade a country (odd how we are talking possibilties when it happened ) I will be opposed to the admistration that pushed for it if I feel it is not in AMERICA's best interest.

Your attitude boils down to "appeasement" on a domestic level because you say "please don't do that...oh fiddle sticks you did it! Well I guesss I support you now" and that is a horrible philosophy to be honest.

To be devoted to the success of your country does not imply nationalism raildogg. Nationalism is when you ALWAYS follow your country, or to be more specific the governmental administration in power, no matter what it does. It can also have a view that people in your "country" are somehow inherently superior to others.

To love your country implies to love the people, to love the land, and to love its products. The government is and will always be a foreign entity that arbitrarily draws lines and declares it under its jurisdiction. Many times in history has the sale/exchange of land occured. Does that mean that these people's "allegiences" to the government changed so quickly? Honestly I doubt it mattered to them, and the love for the land they lived on and people around them supercedes that of the entity which claimed to own the land they lived on.

I understand you mean to be well intentioned raildogg, but your philosophy creates more problems than not. It boils down to "yes man" ideology...

 

[piasabird]

Patriotism has to do whith belonging to a group and defending the rights of a group even with your life. You might try watching the move "The Patriot" to help you to understand it. It is kind of like a gay person standing up for the rights of other gay people or the Christian standing up for the rights of other Christians.

Patriotism also has to do with loyalty to the government and the society that exists in the land in which you live. In the USA we have a very unique situation. We declared to the King of England that we had certain unalienable human rights. As a country we stood against tyrany so people would have the right to attempt to live in freedom. Freedom to live, freedom to own property, and freedom to beleive and worship as each of us chooses within the common laws we established. Our actions shaped our nation and started a revolution that is still rolling, as it covers the whole earth.

Many people think that our way of life is worth dying for.

 

[Rainsford]

Patriotism really depends on your definition. I view it as equal parts principles and people. It's loving and supporting what this country stands for, and the people who live here. This is a positive thing, and does not require any dislike, distrust, or hatred of other peoples. Nationalism, by definition, does. Nationalism is like patriotism, but taken to an extreme extent. A nationalist believes that their country is better than any other country, and that strength lies in standing alone. They reject any outside interferene on principle, rather than looking at what's best for their country. A patriot would have no problem with their country becoming part of a world government if they thought it would be a good move, a nationalist would fight such a decision to the bitter end.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Patriotism has to do whith belonging to a group and defending the rights of a group even with your life. You might try watching the move "The Patriot" to help you to understand it. It is kind of like a gay person standing up for the rights of other gay people or the Christian standing up for the rights of other Christians.

Patriotism also has to do with loyalty to the government and the society that exists in the land in which you live. In the USA we have a very unique situation. We declared to the King of England that we had certain unalienable human rights. As a country we stood against tyrany so people would have the right to attempt to live in freedom. Freedom to live, freedom to own property, and freedom to beleive and worship as each of us chooses within the common laws we established. Our actions shaped our nation and started a revolution that is still rolling, as it covers the whole earth.

Many people think that our way of life is worth dying for.

You almost got it right, except for that part I bolded. Unless you mean loyalty to the principles upon which this government was founded, you are dead wrong. Americans throwing off the rule of the King of England were patriots, because they stood against tyrany for their country and their principles. Governments are just men, loyalty to men above loyalty to principles is misplaced patriotism. Or were the founding fathers not patriots at all?

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: piasabird
Patriotism has to do whith belonging to a group and defending the rights of a group even with your life. You might try watching the move "The Patriot" to help you to understand it. It is kind of like a gay person standing up for the rights of other gay people or the Christian standing up for the rights of other Christians.

Patriotism also has to do with loyalty to the government and the society that exists in the land in which you live. In the USA we have a very unique situation. We declared to the King of England that we had certain unalienable human rights. As a country we stood against tyrany so people would have the right to attempt to live in freedom. Freedom to live, freedom to own property, and freedom to beleive and worship as each of us chooses within the common laws we established. Our actions shaped our nation and started a revolution that is still rolling, as it covers the whole earth.

Many people think that our way of life is worth dying for.

You almost got it right, except for that part I bolded. Unless you mean loyalty to the principles upon which this government was founded, you are dead wrong. Americans throwing off the rule of the King of England were patriots, because they stood against tyrany for their country and their principles. Governments are just men, loyalty to men above loyalty to principles is misplaced patriotism. Or were the founding fathers not patriots at all?

Yeah, they were indeed patriots. So you were deadon there. Same with the bolded part.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

I think the OP is confused. I haven't read the whole thread, but the first post leads me to think this.

You're confusing patriotism with nationalism.

Patriotism is more of a philosophy; a way of thinking. In case of Americans, we like to talk big and bad about our freedom and liberty and how we should be so proud. We talk the talk, but do we walk the walk? Hell no. We happily vote and/or legislate our freedoms away without a second thought. Yet we turn around and proclaim we are "Proud to be American."

PATHETIC!

That's just a bad case of nationalism. The same reason Bush's or any other President's approval rating skyrockets enlight of a tragedy. People get scared and cling to their leaders. This is nationalism.

I believe American patriotism is deeply rooted in very, very libertarian-esque principles. Therefore, any one who votes, any politician who votes on legislation, or any new bill brought before Congress, should be critically analyzed before set into place.

Patriotism is based on principle. Something lost today.

 

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: Malfeas
Here's an interesting quote from Hermann Goering:

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

QFT

 

[Duckzilla]

Originally posted by: ELP
I think the OP is confused. I haven't read the whole thread, but the first post leads me to think this.

You're confusing patriotism with nationalism.

Patriotism is more of a philosophy; a way of thinking. In case of Americans, we like to talk big and bad about our freedom and liberty and how we should be so proud. We talk the talk, but do we walk the walk? Hell no. We happily vote and/or legislate our freedoms away without a second thought. Yet we turn around and proclaim we are "Proud to be American."

PATHETIC!

That's just a bad case of nationalism. The same reason Bush's or any other President's approval rating skyrockets enlight of a tragedy. People get scared and cling to their leaders. This is nationalism.

I believe American patriotism is deeply rooted in very, very libertarian-esque principles. Therefore, any one who votes, any politician who votes on legislation, or any new bill brought before Congress, should be critically analyzed before set into place.

Patriotism is based on principle. Something lost today.

Another asshole using the word "WE" when he should be using "THEY".

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Promethply

Originally posted by: Malfeas
Here's an interesting quote from Hermann Goering:

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

QFT

Do we have to be told we're being attacked :roll: (Well, maybe the Libs never got the memo)

Pacifists SHOULD be denounced, in war, in peace, and anytime in-between.

Here, let me put on my LeftWing Nut cap: "OMGosh, like, fervent nationalism has been used to advance violence, like.... wow dude, PATRIOTISM IS SO BAD!!!!!!!1111111"

That hurt my brain just typing it //tosses cap in the garbage