cw: "Leave it to the mystic who found the secrets of the universe within a mental trance on a therapist's couch :roll:
Just because you cannot understand doesn't mean you should ASSUME what I say is wrong... and it is clear you do not understand because your reply was nonsensical. Maybe you should seek understanding instead of damning something... wait, I'm an infidel to your one-man religion, and anything that appears as a threat to your supernatural dogma must be opposed. I forgot that you have already reached a Jesus-like state through your psychotherapeutic exercises. "
Nah, just trying to save you from your assumptions.
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cw: "Many people who think patriotism is a prejudice are people who cannot make value-judgements. They are subjectivists... unable to distinguish good and bad, which in effect, makes everything bad (which in turn validates their malevolent outlook on reality)."
M: You should try to actually read and understanding what you write so you can come to grips with the fact that you don't really say anything. Subjectivists do make value judgments, subjective ones. Nothing here in your 'rant' I will call it, since it is not a rational discourse, demonstrates or shows in any way how subjectivity leads to making everything bad nor do you tell us how it is that subjective people have a malevolent outlook on reality. Care to make an actual case? Clearly you enjoy spewing nonsense.
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cw: "A subjectivist as I'm using the term believes that reality is not a firm absolute. We have had this discussion... you are subjectivist and I'm not. You believe reality is a plastic, arbitrary substance that can be altered or defined by the perceiver's feelings, experiences, wishes, or whims. "
M: Yes we had this conversation in which you claimed that the reality is reality is reality, a totally tautological and useless assertion. You make appeals to reality but cannot tell us what it is except in a meaningless way. The way you define reality is completely subjective to you. Reality is what you claim it to be. Not.
cw: "In epistemology (how we arrive at truth), the subjectivist dispenses with facts, since truth lies inward. So "Good" (a value judgement) bears no relation to the facts of reality... Good is the product our our consciousness they claim. So when I say they cannot distinguish good or bad, I'm saying that cannot distinguish an across-the-board, objective good or bad since everyone's consciousness decides their own. Since in their fantasyworld, "good" and "bad" are individual inventions, any idea or concept or principle could be contrued as bad."
M: Pray, what is the good?
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cw: "Such people can never experience genuine love, since love is an immense personal demonstration of value.
M: Oh no, you mean personal value as in subjective? Goodness me!
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cw: So thinking about what I just said, the subjectivist lives by the primacy of his emotions, experiences, and lower consciousness. He is not in control. What he values is based on the whims of this conglomeration of inner forces. He cannot experience true love when he does not consider the valid values based on an external, rational, real existence. He is a zombie, an underdevloped automan living a life with blinders, ruled by the machinations of his mental dreamworld and giving what can only be described as a causeless love.
M: What are the valid values based on an external, rational, real existence.
cw: To love is to value, and this value must be based on a rational estimation of objective reality. Only this person is capable of authentic love by holding firm, consistent, uncompromising values... and those are the types of values a subjectivist -by definition- cannot hold.
M: You are an idealist in love with your theory of what you value in a thing. You have no love for the thing itself at all. You are in love with a story you tell. But don't assume that you will see this.
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cw: "To the self-hating individual, cynicism is the dominant trait... attachments are seen as ignorant, primitive, and scary. They are reactionary to the sight of people demonstrating a characteristic that seems so foreign to them."
M: You characterize yourself well here.
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cw: Your skills of observation are... lacking, to say the least. And disengenuous, considering YOU have said attachments are bad (ie. ignorant, primitive, and scary). And you succumb to your own cynicism: I express my attachments (specifically to America in this thread) and you post a reactionary reply, just as I explained they do.
M: Yes but that does not change the fact that you describe yourself well. My skill of observation are lacking because you lack the observational skill to see them,
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cw: My feelings for America are not nationalistic bromide.
M: Whatever that means.
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cw: Bromide is platitude. My feeling for America are not trite, nationalistic platitudes.
M: I know what a Bromide is, and that helps not to decipher your meaning. It is that fact that you make claims for which no evidence is forthcoming that makes it incomprehensible. You are stuffed full of Bromides and platitudes in the form of unexamined assumptions that you know the good.
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cw: They aren't because I was born here. They are derived from a full psychological and philosphical understanding of our history, ideals, and aspirations. This is possible because I not mired in moral paralysis and not incapable of making the necessary value judgements to determine good, bad, or otherwise.
M: My my, you are very impressive. Ever stop to wonder how you got so high on the horse?
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cw: Great response, couldn't think of anything to say?
M: I have a great deal to say but almost none of it will do you any good. You are profoundly defensive. I think it's important to show the extent to which you will exaggerate. It's just more hot air where you claim to know stuff about which is clear you haven't the faintest idea.
cw: As if you - the P&N Buddha himself- have room to talk. At least I base my assumptions and conclusions on reasoned thinking of best possible evidence. You have arrived at your godlike wisdom through some psychic breakthrough :roll:
M: On the contrary your words are an endless series of assertions with no proof or demonstration at all. You simply propound a ton of cabbage and say what a good boy am I. You are so sure of yourself you fail to note you provide absolutely no evidence for your claims.
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cw: "Because patriotism is not good or bad. Patriotism is like love or democracy... it's a concept, it's conceptual, which means its amoral and its goodness (or badness) must be judged contextually. Can someone be patriotic and be engaged in evasion and ignorance? Yes. Can someone be patriotic and be engaged in honesty and reason? Yes."
M: As I pointed out in a post before you. >In other words, patriotism is a prejudice that operates for the good or bad depending on the situation.
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cw: I would not call it a prejudice, because that implies forming an opinion (or acting on feelings) without knowledge, thought, or reason. Sorry, I cannot buy into your loaded definition.
M: Then please show me how logic thought or reason yield patriotism.
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cw: The knee-jerk reaction by emotionaly stunted people is often to deride or dismiss something based on its unreasonable usage by some, precisely because their values (since they are subjectivists) are implicit, and the product of a motley default- full of subconscious feelings and random associations.
M: Here I think you were so intent on sounding as though you knew what you were talking about that you wound up saying nothing. Perhaps you would like to say it simply. I am curious, for example, how values can be both subjective and implicit.
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cw: It only seems as if I said nothing because you evidently needed more explanation.
M: I will let others judge that for themselves.
cw: Hopefully you now understand that I'm talking about. The (false) "values" held by the subjectivist is implicit because they are inherent ... they are a subconscious default, not real values based on the external, real, objective, universe.
M: Nope, no idea what you are talking about. And you are the subjectivist, again, not me. Your values are based on your opinion of what constitutes the external real objective universe, not the one that exists in fact. They are only words and ideas you have created about reality, dead and from the past.
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cw: The emotionally advanced people can choose their values consciously because they have a rational commitment to introspection- discovering the source of their feelings and determining the premises from which they come. If the premises are wrong, they correct them. In the end, such people have the capacity to understand where a feeling -like patriotism- comes from and whether it's a valid response... using the mind as a guide.
M: How very rational. I guess you too know that patriotism is not a valid response.
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cw: And why wouldn't patriotism be a valid response? Because the little pixie in your "unconscious" told you so?
M: No, because that is the conclusion reached by advanced people of the kind you described, of course.
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cw: "The man who will follow his country down any evil path is a patriotic fool. This does not mean I think patriotism is foolish... it means it CAN be. But the man who uses logic, reason, and best possible evidence to agree with the sum total of what a country is (and what it stands for) will seek to cherish, uphold and defend such a country. He may not always agree with what the government does, or with certain social aspects, but he will always attempt to keep the country true to the virtuous ideals he sees at its core."
M: No he won't. "That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."
The founding fathers were not patriots, they were revolutionaries.
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cw: The founding father's weren't patriots? Wow.....
M: The founding fathers were British. Ask the British if they were patriots.
cw: As I said, a patriot seeks to cherish, uphold and defend a country that they believe to be honorable and noble. Obviously... duh... if they no longer see the government as representative of such high ideals, they will no longer seek to do those things. They are patriots to the notions and principles, which are merely emboddied by the country.
M: But your words, which you pay so little attention to were: " but he (the Patriot) will always attempt to keep the country true to the virtuous ideals he sees at its core.
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M: Patriotism is an emotional disease, the act of identification with an abstraction and irrationally idolized entity like the state. The real patriot is patriotic to truth and follows it wherever it leads. Your words are the gas of unexamined assumptions. As every dwarf in World of Warcraft will tell you, "Keep yur feet on the ground."
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cw: I would rather identify with abstractions (which takes human effort) than concretes (which animals can do). As one person has said, an animal can perceive two oranges or two apples, but cannot grasp the abstraction of "two." I can understand your aversion to abstractions, because that takes reasoned application of external facts of reality, not whatever your pixie-friend whispers into your mind's eye.
M: Point is,,,,abstractions are pxie dust and subjective words and ideas with no reality at all but with the power to cause you to die for your fantasies. As I said, you are an idealistic dreamer and I am the realist. For the love of ideas you can kill real men,,,,and call it love. And all because you live with the illusion you know what is good.
cw: What I think you should realize is we believe different things and just won't agree on much. I will normally stick to expressing my ideas, and people can take them or leave them. But your favorite tactic of dissecting quote-by-quote my posts in a frenzy of indignation begs the question: What are you scared of (if your so comfortable with your belief system?) Spend a little time on the old shrink couch with that... what are you scared of?
M: The world will die from the good intentions of idealists as one patriot mows down another.