What's wrong with the economy?

[conjur]

Originally posted by: charrison
Nice rant, but it does not reflect the truth. It interest paymets are still below what they were during the 90s. IFfyou index those payments to inflation they are all lower and are on average 20billion less than what they were in the 90s.

What you say would be true if it was a 1:1 comparison. Remember, those late 90s were in a period of prosperity and more money was being applied to the debt.

Can't be said for the current situation.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: charrison
Nice rant, but it does not reflect the truth. It interest paymets are still below what they were during the 90s. IFfyou index those payments to inflation they are all lower and are on average 20billion less than what they were in the 90s.

What you say would be true if it was a 1:1 comparison. Remember, those late 90s were in a period of prosperity and more money was being applied to the debt.

Can't be said for the current situation.

And these are by no means bad times either. IT is not time to sound the alarm signal on the debt.

 

[conjur]

The time to sound the alarm was about 15-20 years ago.

It's almost past time to alter course in time to prevent us from falling off the cliff.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: conjur
The time to sound the alarm was about 15-20 years ago.

It's almost past time to alter course in time to prevent us from falling off the cliff.

Probably time to start learning Chinese, eh?

 

[Starbuck1975]

It's not just the consume mindset of Americans that's been drilled in over decades of marketing from the corporations

Marketing is only as effective as people allow it to be...I don't particularly buy into the notion that marketing in and of itself has created our culture of consumerism, which has in recent years shifted to materialistic excess.

The cultural shift mostly began after WW2...the generation that fought and won that war also lived through the Great Depression...spending on non-essential or luxury items was a foreign concept to that generation...but the children of the Greatest Generation had that which their parents did not...the cultural upheaval of the 60s and the pessimism of the 70s led to the excess of the 80s.

it's the politicians and corporate execs that abuse the public trust in order to make some short-term bucks and exert a bit of power that their huge egos demand.

That is a fairly broad generalization...when scandals tend to hit in either circle, it certainly makes the news, as the extent of such corruption is a clear violation of the public trust...to say that all politicians and all corporate execs are crooks is somewhat of a stretch...compared to the widespread corruption and greed of early 20th century America, contemporary corporate execs and politicians are pillars of ethical conduct.

There needs to be accountability and consequences at every level of corporate America as well as in the government.

Agreed, although our society as a whole needs a healthy dose of personal accountability and responsibility...the behavior of corporate America and the government reflects what our society has come to accept as a whole.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

So anyones who parents aren't rich is a loser.

Why don't you pull that silver spoon out of your ass.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

So anyones who parents aren't rich is a loser.

Why don't you pull that silver spoon out of your ass.

I do not think you understood what he was trying to convey. He was responding to the comment of "free or affordable education" which means the taxpayer would be footing the bill. I for one do not agree with this either. My parents are well off and were when I was in school yet I paid for my undergrad and grad school on my own without taking out any loans. If I can do that then why should I be punished through taxes to pay for people that do not want to be responsible for their own school expenses? It boils down to determination and dedication, unfortunately that is not all that common these days. People want the benefits while expecting someone else to make the sacrifices.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

So anyones who parents aren't rich is a loser.

Why don't you pull that silver spoon out of your ass.

I do not think you understood what he was trying to convey. He was responding to the comment of "free or affordable education" which means the taxpayer would be footing the bill. I for one do not agree with this either. My parents are well off and were when I was in school yet I paid for my undergrad and grad school on my own without taking out any loans. If I can do that then why should I be punished through taxes to pay for people that do not want to be responsible for their own school expenses? It boils down to determination and dedication, unfortunately that is not all that common these days. People want the benefits while expecting someone else to make the sacrifices.

Lets say 30K a year for college at most private schools. State schools don't count and R&B have to be included because most people don't live close enough to campus to live at home. Now lets add expenses, 500 a year for books, 1500 for car, gas, insurance. So where looking at jobs which pay upwards of 15 dollars an hour. Not many college students have skills worth 15 dollars an hour.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

So anyones who parents aren't rich is a loser.

Why don't you pull that silver spoon out of your ass.

I do not think you understood what he was trying to convey. He was responding to the comment of "free or affordable education" which means the taxpayer would be footing the bill. I for one do not agree with this either. My parents are well off and were when I was in school yet I paid for my undergrad and grad school on my own without taking out any loans. If I can do that then why should I be punished through taxes to pay for people that do not want to be responsible for their own school expenses? It boils down to determination and dedication, unfortunately that is not all that common these days. People want the benefits while expecting someone else to make the sacrifices.

Lets say 30K a year for college at most private schools. State schools don't count and R&B have to be included because most people don't live close enough to campus to live at home. Now lets add expenses, 500 a year for books, 1500 for car, gas, insurance. So where looking at jobs which pay upwards of 15 dollars an hour. Not many college students have skills worth 15 dollars an hour.

What is your point? Why don't state schools count? I definitely wouldn't pay taxes to give some slacker a free ride through a private school, or a state school for that matter. If you want to go to college then do whatever combination of parents/work/loans you need to but I am not paying for your education.....I already paid for my own, on my own.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

So anyones who parents aren't rich is a loser.

Why don't you pull that silver spoon out of your ass.

I do not think you understood what he was trying to convey. He was responding to the comment of "free or affordable education" which means the taxpayer would be footing the bill. I for one do not agree with this either. My parents are well off and were when I was in school yet I paid for my undergrad and grad school on my own without taking out any loans. If I can do that then why should I be punished through taxes to pay for people that do not want to be responsible for their own school expenses? It boils down to determination and dedication, unfortunately that is not all that common these days. People want the benefits while expecting someone else to make the sacrifices.

Lets say 30K a year for college at most private schools. State schools don't count and R&B have to be included because most people don't live close enough to campus to live at home. Now lets add expenses, 500 a year for books, 1500 for car, gas, insurance. So where looking at jobs which pay upwards of 15 dollars an hour. Not many college students have skills worth 15 dollars an hour.

What is your point? Why don't state schools count? I definitely wouldn't pay taxes to give some slacker a free ride through a private school, or a state school for that matter. If you want to go to college then do whatever combination of parents/work/loans you need to but I am not paying for your education.....I already paid for my own, on my own.

Because state schools are paid for by taxes. Or did you forget about that while "working" your way for school you where only paying part of the price. Also inflation in tution has been much greater then inflation in unskilled work so it is getting harder to work thru college

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: smack Down
Because state schools are paid for by taxes. Or did you forget about that while "working" your way for school you where only paying part of the price. Also inflation in tution has been much greater then inflation in unskilled work so it is getting harder to work thru college

I didn't forget anything. No one should be handed an education to a private school on my tax dollars. What are you smoking? They can find a way to get through a state school. Who said anything about unskilled work? There are plenty of ways to make money to pay your way through college. I know many who did. Make me 18 again today and I would still get myself through college even with inflation, and I wouldn't take out any loans either. It really wouldn't matter to me.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

So anyones who parents aren't rich is a loser.

Why don't you pull that silver spoon out of your ass.

I pay for my own school and I live in the ghetto. I WORK HARD. End of story.

JC tuition, books, and supplies shouldn't total more than 3,500 a year MAX.

There seems to be this urgency for everyone to pay through the nose and rush through school as fast as possible. That's why we have this image of poor college students. They're poor because they haven't invested much time into the work force. Give a student 2-3 years after high school to work and I'll bet anything they can land a job paying around 9 dollars an hour (sometimes more). I know plenty of people who do, and that's more than enough to pay the way through JC. Besides, nobody said students have to take a full load of courses every quarter.

 

[Jhhnn]

From charrison-

"Nice rant, but it does not reflect the truth. It interest paymets are still below what they were during the 90s. IFfyou index those payments to inflation they are all lower and are on average 20billion less than what they were in the 90s."

First, you claimed that interest payments were less in absolute dollars, which turned out to be false. Now, you adjust for inflation in a rather lame attempt to claim that borrowing more money at record low floating rates won't cause any problems, flipping back to an absolute dollars reference point...

All the while ignoring the fact that the debt of the 90's was the result of miserably poor fiscal stewardship by the RR and GHWB administrations...

At the current level of increase, the Repubs have us lined up for a total debt of nearly $10T by the end of fiscal 2009. Every increase of 1% in the interest rate will mean an increase of $100B/yr in debt maintenance. Simple math. It's entirely likely that interest rates will increase by 2% over that time span, meaning that debt maintenance will exceed $500B/yr... That's more than the current bloated military budget, and more than all of HHS combined...

Which is only one facet of the situation. What's even more telling is just how large a % of GDP growth is created by MEW, mortgage equity withdrawal-

http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2005...-growth-with-and-without-mortgage.html

Even as the financial elite are reaping record profits, everyday Americans are liquidating their assets to maintain their lifestyles...

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Even as the financial elite are reaping record profits, everyday Americans are liquidating their assets to maintain their lifestyles...

Makes me think of the trade deficit. With 700 billion more going out than coming in each year, the wealth has to come from somewhere to pay for it. The average US citizen is indeed liquidating their assets (even if artifically inflated because of irrational exuberance) to pay for it all.

 

[Engineer]

Speaking of economy, the first call GDP numbers for the 4th quarter came in a 1.1% (up) vs 4.1% for the 3rd quarter.

Source: Live on CNBC

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

The "Trade" is that you are not paying for their Welfare, subsidized Healthcare, or other costs you are paying now. You are also paying less because they are paying part of your previous share.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski
What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

Because the increase in their salary is more than the increase in their taxes.

A progressive tax structure is the best way to implement taxation, at least while there's fewer workers than retirees causing the Social Security deficit looming on the economic horizon.

There's no way around increasing taxes (starting with rescinding all tax cuts the Propagandist has passed) and cutting spending (starting with the Military and a much less aggressive foreign policy) in order to keep us from turning into Argentina.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

The "Trade" is that you are not paying for their Welfare, subsidized Healthcare, or other costs you are paying now. You are also paying less because they are paying part of your previous share.

Welfare, subsidized healthcare....why even go to school in the first place? Slash these programs.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski
What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

Because the increase in their salary is more than the increase in their taxes.

A progressive tax structure is the best way to implement taxation, at least while there's fewer workers than retirees causing the Social Security deficit looming on the economic horizon.

There's no way around increasing taxes (starting with rescinding all tax cuts the Propagandist has passed) and cutting spending (starting with the Military and a much less aggressive foreign policy) in order to keep us from turning into Argentina.

There is a way around increasing taxes. The liberals love to gut the military, tax the rich, and then claim how fiscally responsible they are, while conservatives have to throw funding back at it as soon as we need it and cut taxes to help out the economy. Any reason why Reagan collected the amount of taxes he did despite massive tax cuts?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Any reason why Reagan collected the amount of taxes he did despite massive tax cuts?

Because he then turned around and had the largest tax increase in history?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Zebo

If we make the minimum wage high enough to where people can live off of it, people aren't going to push themselves to work harder and further their education to reach better paying and more rewarding jobs.

If they can't even live off it how are they going to live off it *and* pay for school to find more rewarding work? Not to mention find the time to attend. Anything "rewarding" (you mean financally) is intesive like premed/engineering etc requiring your full attention and usually daytime classes.

They don't - walk though the isles of walmart you'll see plenty of middle aged persons stuck in a rut. You think they like making minimum wage or being a walmart coolie?

Like I said. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs. If these people can't apply for financial aid, work harder to make more money, or get a student loan because they screwed up their credit, then I'd say that's their problem. Of course socialist loonies would love to put the burden on the hard-working so that everyone can go to school for free and do whatever they want.

What if Free or affordable Education gets them a career where they make more money and pay more Taxes?

If they're making more money AND paying more taxes, where's the trade? What's the point of going to school for 4 years so that you can work at a job that makes you pay for some other losers schooling?

The "Trade" is that you are not paying for their Welfare, subsidized Healthcare, or other costs you are paying now. You are also paying less because they are paying part of your previous share.

Welfare, subsidized healthcare....why even go to school in the first place? Slash these programs.

They want to better themselves. Your solution is just to make them worse off.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Any reason why Reagan collected the amount of taxes he did despite massive tax cuts?

Because he then turned around and had the largest tax increase in history?

That little piece of truth will make BlancoNino cry.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Any reason why Reagan collected the amount of taxes he did despite massive tax cuts?

Because he then turned around and had the largest tax increase in history?

That little piece of truth will make BlancoNino cry.

Indeed, but Reagan cut way more taxes than increased.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Any reason why Reagan collected the amount of taxes he did despite massive tax cuts?

Because he then turned around and had the largest tax increase in history?

That little piece of truth will make BlancoNino cry.

Indeed, but Reagan cut way more taxes than increased.

Reagan Cut Taxes, 3ish years later he reluctantly signed a Bill that restored Taxes. Reason was that the Deficit was growing out of control. In all, Reagonomics lasted about 3 years before it was abandoned.