When are "mining inflated" prices going to drop?

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nwo

Platinum Member
Jun 21, 2005
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I've seen a couple of sites already taking orders for (non-reference) 290s at sub $500 prices. Most of them are shipping them out starting next month. I know that's not really returning the prices to normal, but it's a start. It's definitely going to be a while before we see Radeon prices go below MSRP.

My guess is give it another quarter or so. Mining will most certainly be profitable even then. However, by that time ASICs will be closer to release, supply will increase, and demand will start to level out.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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The price of AMD video cards will drop when either one of these two things happen:

The "optimistic" scenario: Someone develops an ASIC for cryptocoins using the script algorithm (like Litecoin, Dogecoin, and all of the other annoying Litecoin clones out there). Difficulty skyrockets, and it no longer becomes profitable to mine them with an AMD video card. This scenario has already played out for Bitcoin.

The "pessimistic" scenario: A bunch of large countries outlaw the exchange of Bitcoin into government backed currency due to new money laundering and drug trafficking laws. The value of Bitcoin plummets, taking Litecoin and all of the other cryptocurrencies with it. Mining coins is no longer profitable, so most people stop doing it. This scenario is already playing out in places like China and Thailand.

In both scenarios, you'll see a ton of overworked AMD video cards being dumped on eBay. I wouldn't buy them, as many of them will have been running overclocked 24/7 for months and will likely experience fan problems in the near future.

GPU Mining has now been going on for years. If you look at the Bitcoin Mining thread here dated 05/24/11 there were posts withing a day saying it already wasn't profitable. Almost 3 years later, people are still making money. The "ton of overworked AMD video cards being dumped on eBay" scenario still hasn't happened. Who knows when, or if it ever will?

Nobody even has to outlaw anything. There have been several times when the value of one bitcoin has fallen by more than 50%. There have also been several times when mining difficulty has doubled over a short period. If certain combinations of bitcoin price and mining difficult becomes the norm the mining will stop.

For example, ASICs have made GPU mining much harder but the move from Bitcoin to Litecoin also made GPU mining for Litecoin more viable. If a Litecoin ASIC is made, that makes Litecoin less attractive. Or cryptocoins could take another one of their speculative price downswings because the prices of these things aren't really rooted in any measureable way so they can fluctuate wildly in both directions.

Low enough prices prices with high enough difficultly and the miners will stop buying new hardware. If this situation persists for a few months the miners will strip their rigs and sell the components rather than lose the money.

Again, been waiting for this prediction for years now.

I've seen a couple of sites already taking orders for (non-reference) 290s at sub $500 prices. Most of them are shipping them out starting next month. I know that's not really returning the prices to normal, but it's a start. It's definitely going to be a while before we see Radeon prices go below MSRP.

My guess is give it another quarter or so. Mining will most certainly be profitable even then. However, by that time ASICs will be closer to release, supply will increase, and demand will start to level out.

NCIX has the Asus reference 290 listed at $439.99 Back ordered with an ETA of 3-5 days.

Superbiz is showing the Powercolor reference 290X in stock @ $589.99 + $4.99 shipping.

Suprebiz also has the XFX reference 290X in stock @ $589.99 + $10.00 shipping

B&H often shows stocks near retail in stock.

Just check http://pcpartpicker.com/ you can usually find some 290/290X in stock or coming soon near retail prices. I would call these places first before ordering to verify availability.

As far as the likelihood that it will ever die goes, I'm not so sure it ever will. There has been a push since the 60's for there to be a one world currency. Financial institutions in the name of nationalism has blocked it from happening. Depending on who is exactly behind this and the muscle they have to push it on, this could end up sticking. Lot's of national currencies around the world are basically worthless on the free market. People are often forced to do business in USD. I know the company I work for still purchases imported goods using USD. A one world currency would eliminate this and the associated fees to the bureaucracy that makes a living off of exchanging currencies.

As far as people not thinking this will effect the overall GPU market, including nVidia, think again. This drives up overall demand. People who normally wouldn't buy video cards at all, or might only buy one or two, are buying them in quantities larger than ever. As some have noted, this will make nVidia cards, which are more readily available, increase in demand as well. If it increases demand enough, prices will go up. I believe that if this hadn't happened and we continued to see AMD cards at MSRP we very well could have seen nVidia prices drop some by now. The 290 @ $400 very well could have put more pressure as time went on , on the 780, for example, and forced it's price down. Or the custom 290X's at $550-$600 would have pressured the 780 ti. Surely nVidia cards wouldn't be as good a value as they are now without AMD's prices being inflated.
 

Adampa1006

Member
May 29, 2013
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290x is only $50 above MSRP on Newegg. The 290 though is such a good value, but father away at this point, but falling slightly, I have been checking the prices almost everyday, they are definitely trending down. I predict by the end of next month you can get a 290 near the correct price.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,914
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if the 20nm R9-3XX generation would offer better KH/W ratio then people might flock to those cards and perhaps then we would see massive dumping of R9-290 cards.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
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if the 20nm R9-3XX generation would offer better KH/W ratio then people might flock to those cards and perhaps then we would see massive dumping of R9-290 cards.

I doubt it, do you see dumping of 79xx much less 69xx nor 58xx. People are using them until they die and still wishing they would go on.

I think the prices will slowly go down since January has not been quite as good as December profit wise I believe (exceptions being dogecoin).
 

Will Robinson

Golden Member
Dec 19, 2009
1,408
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The ASICs are much more efficient. The GPUs are based around a programmable pipeline that can perform a wide range of calculations. The programability makes them able to do a lot of things, but not the fastest at any of them. The ASICs have a fixed pipeline that is optimized to perform the hashing function for mining precisely in the quickest and most efficient way.

So if someone starts writing a mining script that takes advantage of a GPU's multi capable program pipelines.....

Re: the cost of electricity v profitability of GPU mining.
Those of us with solar panel arrays making electricity day in and out for free...takes a bit of heat out of that equation.:hmm:
 

powruser

Member
Mar 11, 2011
71
2
71
It's amazing how much prices have increased. I bought my Asus 7970 DirectCU II when they were being discontinued to make way for the R9 280X and paid $260 after rebate. The Asus R9 280X is going for $420! Even used Asus 7970 DCII's are going for $300+ on eBay...
 

gbeirn

Senior member
Sep 27, 2005
450
13
81
I doubt it, do you see dumping of 79xx much less 69xx nor 58xx. People are using them until they die and still wishing they would go on.

I think the prices will slowly go down since January has not been quite as good as December profit wise I believe (exceptions being dogecoin).

Yep exactly, every card I have bought for the past 3 years just keeps getting added to the mining pool, nothing is replaced until they die.
 

Techhog

Platinum Member
Sep 11, 2013
2,834
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An idea just popped into my head after reading something in another thread. If Maxwell turned out to be useful for mining, would that not drive down prices by dramatically increasing the supply of cards which can be used for mining?
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
I think yes, anything that increases the ability to mine should drive down prices for everyone. So if Maxwell does well at mining, then more people will buy it and mine with it, and that increases difficulty for everyone, making mining less profitable and less desirable. Also there is a cudaminer for NVidia cards that apparently makes it profitable to mine with 780 cards. Perhaps Maxwell cards could do even better on cudaminer.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
There's difficulty and price of the coins.


If more folks mine it stands to reason that the price of alt coins will go up, of course so will difficulty. If people actually spend coins on goods then the price will go up further.


Who knows when prices come back down for AMD GPU's. It should be implicit knowledge to the conversation that mining on AMD GPU's at current prices is profitable now and will be in the immediate future.

280x and up are wayyyyyy over priced for gamers IMO,... so are the 780 and up though.

The 270, 270x, 760, 770 are decent deals at available prices, 180-300.
 

Venomous

Golden Member
Oct 18, 1999
1,180
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As long as people think that spending hundreds of dollars to buy video cards and related gear, plus the cost of running electricity of these rigs near max for 24/7 will in reality not gain them any real world profits. The "mining" trend as it is is already over saturated and is not economically worthwhile in reality from what Ive seen.

The prices only affect AMD though thankfully. Nvidia products have not increased. Glad they aren't as good for mining..........

That's because Nvidia cards are already overpriced from nv themselves
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
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An ASIC that would be good enough to yield the same
throughput as a herd of stream processors seems to me dubious,
it will cost more than GPUs given the latters huge transistors budgets
and the fact that they are used in massively parralel computations.

You apparently have no clue how an ASIC works. They greatly outperform a GPU for the one specific task they are designed to do. GPU's are multipurpose, while an ASIC only does one job, but does it very fast.
 

x3sphere

Senior member
Jul 22, 2009
722
24
81
www.exophase.com
An idea just popped into my head after reading something in another thread. If Maxwell turned out to be useful for mining, would that not drive down prices by dramatically increasing the supply of cards which can be used for mining?

Maxwell will likely be better than any of the Radeons for mining, well assuming it comes out before AMD's next card.

You can get like 750 kH/s out of a 780 Ti now. 290x does like 800-850 kH I think?

So I think it won't be hard for Maxwell to top a 290x, but the price will be higher most likely so it wouldn't make sense still.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,910
2,127
126
You can get like 750 kH/s out of a 780 Ti now.

That's at a really high power consumption I believe and high clocks. A 290 can do 830-840kh/s at stock clocks and a 290X is around 900kh/s at stock. Still though, really good considering where it was before.
 

x3sphere

Senior member
Jul 22, 2009
722
24
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www.exophase.com
That's at a really high power consumption I believe and high clocks. A 290 can do 830-840kh/s at stock clocks. Still though, really good considering where it was before.

True about the power consumption, although the 290 series are super power hungry too so not sure how it compares.

I've been following the development thread over at bitcointalk and a Nvidia engineer submitted a new kernel for cudaminer yesterday, seems to give a 13% performance boost. Haven't seen numbers for the Ti yet, maybe it'll get up to 800 kH now.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,910
2,127
126
development thread over at bitcointalk and a Nvidia engineer submitted a new kernel for cudaminer yesterday, seems to give a 13% performance boost. Haven't seen numbers for the Ti yet, maybe it'll get up to 800 kH now.

Nice...may have to pick up an nVidia card just to play around with.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
0
Prices will drop soon, they already are to some degree. Mining is becoming less and less profitable by the day, and once cryptocurrencies crash back to sane values (which for anything other than bitcoin is basically zero) there will be a massive glut of miners begging you to pay $300 for R290s.



I can't wait.
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
Prices will drop soon, they already are to some degree. Mining is becoming less and less profitable by the day, and once cryptocurrencies crash back to sane values (which for anything other than bitcoin is basically zero) there will be a massive glut of miners begging you to pay $300 for R290s.



I can't wait.

I don't think all currencies will crash. Instead, the alt coin winners (litecoin and dogecoin) might move lower, toward a value that is just about equal to the electricity cost to mine them. Bitcoin will not crash. I think it's here to stay. I think it's going to go bigger and in 5 years will be a valuable alternative to paypal.

It will be impossible to continue to expect people to pay so much money to paypal, when they can just use bitcoin instead for way less of a transaction fee.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Prices will drop soon, they already are to some degree. Mining is becoming less and less profitable by the day, and once cryptocurrencies crash back to sane values (which for anything other than bitcoin is basically zero) there will be a massive glut of miners begging you to pay $300 for R290s.



I can't wait.

People have been waiting for years. It hasn't happened yet, nor has the market really changed in such a way that it looks like it's going to.
 

robvp

Senior member
Aug 7, 2013
544
0
41
cards did drop in price for a small period of time, they went back to crazy prices at the end of last year when LTC and doge boomed
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
0
People have been waiting for years. It hasn't happened yet, nor has the market really changed in such a way that it looks like it's going to.

Actually, bitcoin has crashed dozens if not hundreds of times

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#tgSzm1g10zm2g25zv



I never said bitcoin wasn't here to stay, I said it will crash. I don't think that's a bad prediction based on its history.


Altcoins will be worth almost nothing. Until they offer something beyond being "not bitcoin" they're not going to be successful.
 
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