When does one cross the line when it comes to killing animals?

HenryC

Member
Jan 14, 2009
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How does one differentiate between killing an animal legitimately, and flat out animal cruelty? Sometimes there's a fine line there, but I realise that such a line is subjective. A recent thread on catching mice reminded me of someone I knew in college. He would brag to me (and other people) about his pest killing exploits.

Apparently he had a short term rat problem, so he purchased one of those diabolical glue traps. Eventually he caught the rat. Noting that the animal was still alive, he decided it was a good idea to boil a kettle of water, which he eventually poured the boiling water over the helpless animal. Not in one go, but slowly, as if to drag it on. Seemingly proud of himself, he would describe in detail the rat's screams and frantic wriggling. When he finished with the kettle, he boiled another kettle of water and did the same thing. Unfortunately the animal was not still dead by then, according to him it was wheezing and in a state of convulsions. He then noted that the fur started to fall off, and that the skin was reddening and blistering from the heat. Despite the poor creature being horribly burnt and still alive, he throws the animal, trap and all, into the dumpster outside.

I'm no psychologist, but I thought to myself "yep, future serial killer right here". Maybe he was just making it up and trying to offend people, though from talking to other people he might have had a history of this. Sure, rats may be pests, but it is really horrible to torture and kill something like that. Especially if the person telling the story had a creepy grin on his face, as if he enjoyed the experience!

Don't know about you, but something like that would certainly cross my ethical line. I have no problem killing animals, but this was something else altogether. It was quite sickening. I don't know what he is doing now, my best guess he's either in jail or in a mental institution. This was a grown man, not a little kid who's just curious and doesn't know right from wrong. Then again even when I was as young as 5 I knew doing that sorta shit was wrong.

So what do you think, was his actions justifiable or did it cross the line? When does it cross the line for you?
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,352
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0
What about dragging an animal buy a its mouth out of its habitat and then suffocating it to death?
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
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Primarily when you take satisfaction in it or see it as some sort of curiousity for your amusement, and when you do it for no good reason, just because you can.

It is a typical hallmark of a sociopath and there are plenty of sociopaths who do not graduate to killing human beings but manifest their depravity in means that do not put them at serious risk of prison.
 

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
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rats deserve no mercy and neither do mice.

they are vermin and death is the only answer.

are we going to wring our hands over killing mosquitoes? Bug zappers? roach hotels? ant traps?

 

HenryC

Member
Jan 14, 2009
126
1
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rats deserve no mercy and neither do mice.

they are vermin and death is the only answer.

are we going to wring our hands over killing mosquitoes? Bug zappers? roach hotels? ant traps?


Are you deliberately being obtuse?
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
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Are you deliberately being obtuse?

The colbert emoticon demands that you engage him in debate and attempt to refute his premise. Asking if he is being obtuse is immature.

He has valid points that I frankly can't argue with, and I have subsequently bought an electric kettle so I can boil water on demand for any future rodents that make the mistake of fucking around on my property.
 

HenryC

Member
Jan 14, 2009
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He has valid points that I frankly can't argue with, and I have subsequently bought an electric kettle so I can boil water on demand for any future rodents that make the mistake of fucking around on my property.

What valid points? He makes comparisons that are irrelevant. How is swatting a mosquito the same as slowly torturing a fully conscious mammal to death for funsies?
 

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
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Are you deliberately being obtuse?
no.

but I don't keep myself up at night worrying about the safety of vermin either.

Sorry, I just don't have any feelings for vermin.

If you want your home overrun with them, then fine.

I don't.

PS: I am not a sociopath either.
 

XavierMace

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2013
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To an extent, he has a point. For example, I killed a whole mess of spiders last week. Dog/cat people especially annoy me in this regards. They are perfectly happy killing some animals (like pigeon's or mice/rat's) but you tell them you kicked a cat they threaten to stone you.

I don't believe any animal should be tortured, which the guy in the OP was doing. But I have a hard time seeing why some animals are fair game whereas others get treated better than most people. I've seen some people argue based on the perceived level of sentience. But most of the actions they use to base that on are a result of training not natural behavior.
 

HenryC

Member
Jan 14, 2009
126
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no.

but I don't keep myself up at night worrying about the safety of vermin either.

Sorry, I just don't have any feelings for vermin.

If you want your home overrun with them, then fine.

I don't.

This post answers my question, thank you.

If you'd read the post, you'd realise I have no problem killing animals. It's the way in which he did it that's questionable. Your statement here makes no sense, because you are implying that the choice is slowly boiling a trapped mammal alive or letting them overrun your home. That's why I am calling you obtuse.
 

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
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To an extent, he has a point. For example, I killed a whole mess of spiders last week. Dog/cat people especially annoy me in this regards. They are perfectly happy killing some animals (like pigeon's or mice/rat's) but you tell them you kicked a cat they threaten to stone you.

I don't believe any animal should be tortured, which the guy in the OP was doing. But I have a hard time seeing why some animals are fair game whereas others get treated better than most people. I've seen some people argue based on the perceived level of sentience. But most of the actions they use to base that on are a result of training not natural behavior.
reminds me of vegetarians/vegans.

always whining about what is perfectly natural and demanding everyone agree with them.
 

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
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This post answers my question, thank you.

If you'd read the post, you'd realise I have no problem killing animals. It's the way in which he did it that's questionable. Your statement here makes no sense, because you are implying that the choice is slowly boiling a trapped mammal alive or letting them overrun your home. That's why I am calling you obtuse.
maybe I need to rephrase my answer:

I don't care about vermin or how they are killed as long as they are killed.

some people on this board seem to take great pride in killing random small mammals with their guns. This doesn't bother me.

relocating rats and mice using live traps is stupid and just shifts the problem elsewhere.

I just wish someone in my city would do something about the excessive population of skunks.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
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Animals are animals. There is no such thing as animal cruelty. Animals don't have feelings. Fucking bleeding hearts anthropomorphize them, attributing human qualities that just plain don't exist. Yes, I know your dog whimpers when you kick him, but 10 seconds later he'll love you if you bring him a treat. That's not feelings, that's instinct.
 

Belegost

Golden Member
Feb 20, 2001
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rats deserve no mercy and neither do mice.

they are vermin and death is the only answer.

are we going to wring our hands over killing mosquitoes? Bug zappers? roach hotels? ant traps?


Alternatively they are clean, intelligent, sociable pets that bond well with humans and make a great companion for people who are unable to keep traditional pets, such as those in apartments or with limited mobility.

I have killed my share of wild mice and rats over the years when necessary, but using quick methods of death, snap traps or bromethalin (the warfarin-type poisons that work by preventing blood coagulation leading to slow death by strokes or internal bleeding seem inhumane.)
 

HenryC

Member
Jan 14, 2009
126
1
81
maybe I need to rephrase my answer:

I don't care about vermin or how they are killed as long as they are killed.

some people on this board seem to take great pride in killing random small mammals with their guns. This doesn't bother me.

relocating rats and mice using live traps is stupid and just shifts the problem elsewhere.

I just wish someone in my city would do something about the excessive population of skunks.

Hey, that's fine. But please don't pretend killing something because you have to is the same thing as deliberately torturing it for entertainment.

I agree, relocation is stupid but only if you do it in a big city where there's no nature reserves or enough natural predators.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
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Animals are animals. There is no such thing as animal cruelty. Animals don't have feelings. Fucking bleeding hearts anthropomorphize them, attributing human qualities that just plain don't exist. Yes, I know your dog whimpers when you kick him, but 10 seconds later he'll love you if you bring him a treat. That's not feelings, that's instinct.

Try not to forget we're animals too. You kick a dog enough it will become scared of people and learn to fear them because they expect to be hurt by them.

I get not everyone is a pet person and that's fine. Killing mice that are in your house or cows and pigs etc. being slaughtered so we can eat is no different. People tend to get pedantic in this discussion.

What separates the insane from the norm is taking pleasure in snuffing out the life of animals and killing them for that reason. I might want mice and rats out of my house and I'll put down a trap or poison and think nothing of it. That is nothing like someone who does what the OP described. That is a mentally ill and highly unstable individual.
 

HenryC

Member
Jan 14, 2009
126
1
81
Animals are animals. There is no such thing as animal cruelty. Animals don't have feelings. Fucking bleeding hearts anthropomorphize them, attributing human qualities that just plain don't exist. Yes, I know your dog whimpers when you kick him, but 10 seconds later he'll love you if you bring him a treat. That's not feelings, that's instinct.

Decades of scientific research says you're wrong.

They even have a "[url="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100509144655.htm]mouse grimace pain scale[/url]". I thought you said "human" qualities don't exist with them?

How can you possibly say that's not feelings when if a dog eventually gets beaten up frequently, it will be traumatised to the point that it would be distrustful of humans? You have no bloody idea.
 

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
30,938
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Hey, that's fine. But please don't pretend killing something because you have to is the same thing as deliberately torturing it for entertainment.

I agree, relocation is stupid but only if you do it in a big city where there's no nature reserves or enough natural predators.
alternatively, buy a cat.

Mine took care of mice and other pests around my house and the neighbours for years.

You also get the bonus of having fun with your pet. She rarely caught birds. They were just a little too smart for her.
 
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