When I said that I would not upgrade to Windows 10 for DX12...

[blastingcap]

...that was when I thought they would charge for Windows 10.

But they aren't. Sorta. It's good for only the first year and I'm not sure what happens if you need to reinstall windows 10 after that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30924022

This may mark the end for AMD's Mantle because they can't even count on Windows 7/8 users being locked out of DX12 to help bolster Mantle market share.

Edit: For those who don't know, Microsoft is hosting a massive Windows 10 presentation today. Apparently in today's Q&A Microsoft hasn't decided yet exactly what to do after the first year but I think they also said they weren't going the subscription model so my best guess is you get 1 year to upgrade for free to win10 and then after that people need to pay to upgrade, but if you're already on win10 you don't have to pay. By the way those who care about gaming may want to see the 1:10 to 1:25 portion of this stream: http://news.microsoft.com/windows10story/?OCID=EVENT_SOC_FB_ORGANIC_LIVESTREAM&linkId=11851823

 

[AnandThenMan]

Is thread about Mantle, Microsoft Windows, GPUs? What?

 

[senseamp]

When is it coming out?

 

[Keysplayr]

Is thread about Mantle, Microsoft Windows, GPUs? What?

I think it's about all of them.

 

[AnandThenMan]

When is it coming out?

Not sure. But I'm trying out the alpha or beta or omega or whatever it's called, it's only okay. Think Windows 8 with a few tweaks. Still don't like the interface, it feels about as fast as Win8. I still much prefer Win7.

 

[Mushkins]

If they want business adoption, they need to stop naming features after Halo characters. The minute I have to tell an executive we're doing an upgrade to IE: Master Chief edition is the minute we move to Mac, lol

 

[RussianSensation]

...that was when I thought they would charge for Windows 10.

But they aren't. Sorta. It's good for only the first year and I'm not sure what happens if you need to reinstall windows 10 after that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30924022

Let's connect the dots:

1. The announcement marks a change in strategy to its previous policy of charging for major updates. [so the upgrade is free, but when does the offer for a free upgrade expire?]

2. The offer, which is limited to the OS's first year of release, may aid its adoption. [OK, so they want to give us a free upgrade during the first 12 months window, to aid adoption]

3. That could help avoid a repeat of the relatively slow uptake of Windows 8. [Confirmation of the above]


So what happens after the first 12 months for W7/8.1 users is most likely you'll have to pay for the upgrade since you missed the upgrade window. It doesn't state anywhere in the article that those who upgraded for free in the first 12 months would suddenly be charged a subscription based model thereafter.

Anyway, I said before that rumours all pointed to MS giving Windows 10 as a free upgrade to W7/8.1 users, which makes sense since it's really just a service pack to W7/8.1 with new features. Also, MS is under pressure from Apple that provides free OS upgrades.

 

[blastingcap]

I think it's about all of them.

Correct.

 

[Despoiler]

If they want business adoption, they need to stop naming features after Halo characters. The minute I have to tell an executive we're doing an upgrade to IE: Master Chief edition is the minute we move to Mac, lol

Business adoption is more grounded in having to not only buy new licenses, but also regression test every single piece of software on the new OS. My company just updated to Win7 last year from WinXP. It was a giant project and I was surprised how many programs, web apps, and installers were 16bit or had 16bit components. All of that software had to be updated or rewritten to 32 or 64bit.

If you are like me you only buy every other Windows version because every other version is a good OS. Win95, Win98, WinXP, and Win7 were the ones to get. Win10 will be the next in line to buy.

Release date for Win10 is June or so I thought.

Mantle isn't going anywhere. It will still have a performance advantage over DX12 because it has less abstraction. Mantle is also the API devs have to use for AMD's embedded products.

 

[Dankk]

When is it coming out?

Microsoft has been on a consistent three-year release cycle for a long time now. Given the history, Windows 10 should be releasing fall of this year. Probably in October.

 

[destrekor]

Let's connect the dots:

1. The announcement marks a change in strategy to its previous policy of charging for major updates. [so the upgrade is free, but when does the offer for a free upgrade expire?]

2. The offer, which is limited to the OS's first year of release, may aid its adoption. [OK, so they want to give us a free upgrade during the first 12 months window, to aid adoption]

3. That could help avoid a repeat of the relatively slow uptake of Windows 8. [Confirmation of the above]


So what happens after the first 12 months for W7/8.1 users is most likely you'll have to pay for the upgrade since you missed the upgrade window. It doesn't state anywhere in the article that those who upgraded for free in the first 12 months would suddenly be charged a subscription based model thereafter.

Anyway, I said before that rumours all pointed to MS giving Windows 10 as a free upgrade to W7/8.1 users, which makes sense since it's really just a service pack to W7/8.1 with new features. Also, MS is under pressure from Apple that provides free OS upgrades.

And more than anything, it's not pressure from Apple for free updates, it's pressure to get more people on the latest platform, which they hope will encourage developers to build up the app marketplace. Now with the universal APIs essentially forcing mobile phone apps to be on the store, and compatible, for all Windows 10 devices, I think that will be exactly what happens: more apps.
I wouldn't doubt if this proves to be successful, if they perhaps continue to offer upgrades for free, or at least at a severely reduced price. This will benefit them, because more paid apps on the store = more revenue from a source that never previously existed. Ideally, it might balance out.


And yes, I wholly expect those free upgrades to be a full upgrade license, just like the $30 upgrades for Windows 8 were full upgrade licenses that could be installed or reinstalled well past the discount window. Microsoft won't be charging a subscription for consumer OS releases, not for the foreseeable future. That's my prediction at least. Enterprise? Perhaps, but also perhaps only an option as opposed to a requirement.


More than anything, I just really really want to see Microsoft announce some kind of upgrade or new approach to Windows Media Center. It's the only HTPC application on any platform that supports content with the copy-once DRM flag. My provider marks quite a bit of content with that. And they have so far made it obvious they don't really care about it anymore, nothing new is made compatible with it (360 was an extender, Xbox One? nope) and new features or any improvements have not been added in forever.

I might consider dropping back down to Windows 7 for the HTPC, though the Windows 8/10 interface is a wonderful 10ft UI if one decides to navigate to other media content not accessible from within WMC. I'll get my free upgrade for that license regardless of how I proceed.

/rant

 

[AnandThenMan]

Microsoft has not announced a release date for Windows 10. I find it interesting that MS feels they need to give Win10 away.

 

[destrekor]

Microsoft has not announced a release date for Windows 10. I find it interesting that MS feels they need to give Win10 away.

Well, if they didn't, people wouldn't automatically upgrade. Only certain folks who like to be bleeding edge insure they have the latest OS. Many people remain on the same version the machine shipped with, because usually Microsoft's asking price has always been ridiculous.

Apple "feels the need" to do just that as well, but for both parties, there is now a larger incentive to encouraging mass adoption to the latest release. This ensures wider software compatibility for developers, and a potentially wider pool for paid applications in a marketplace, which typically carries a 30% cut for the marketplace host (Microsoft, Apple, & Google all follow that approach).

Microsoft could be just fine going with a reduced price, but then they'd continue to lag on mobile devices and the marketplace would continue to remain rather pitiful. This is a perfectly smart move, because I suspect most Windows 8 devices will surely be upgrading to Windows 10, and they may yet snag Windows 7 converts as well. The UI on the desktop is far more functional and less Metro, what with a smaller start menu and more "at home" feel, with a fresh take. That will spur developers to help Microsoft make more money from the app store, which, if they are successful in the long-term, will surely produce equal or more revenue than consumer-based licenses.

I doubt enterprise environments are getting this free offer, and something tells me system builders of non-cheap systems will be paying a license fee to Microsoft.

 

[blastingcap]

Microsoft has not announced a release date for Windows 10. I find it interesting that MS feels they need to give Win10 away.

By giving Win10 away they encourage very quick adoption of Win10, reducing the need for legacy support of Win7/8/8.1.

Quick Win10 adoption also means quick DX12 adoption, which serves to kill Mantle as quickly as possible.

More seamless integration between mobile and desktop may also help with mobile adoption, where MSFT has gotten its butt kicked historically.

The Win10-XBOX integration seems useful though I remember the studies that showed how, for First Person Shooters, mediocre PC gamers blew away even pro-level XBox gamers due to the superiority of kb+mouse over gamepad. So I am not sure what's going to happen there... well, there are many non-FPS games so it's still probably useful.

Microsoft seems to have finally completely woken up to how they can't do incremental upgrades anymore. They all but lost mobile and between that and ARM threatening to eat Intel's lunch from below, Microsoft needs to act quickly or else be irrelevant much sooner than you might think. By offering Win10 free they more quickly get rid of the amount of effort they need to spend on legacy systems so they can focus on the future.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Quick Win10 adoption also means quick DX12 adoption, which serves to kill Mantle as quickly as possible.

Why is it so important to you that Mantle is killed off? And why would MS want to kill off Mantle, the games are running under Windows anyway. If anything Microsoft would want Mantle to succeed, that gives them two distinct APIs running under Windows that supports popular games not one. More Mantle games means potentially less OpenGL games on other operating systems.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Why is it so important to you that Mantle is killed off? And why would MS want to kill off Mantle, the games are running under Windows anyway. If anything Microsoft would want Mantle to succeed, that gives them two distinct APIs running under Windows that supports popular games not one. More Mantle games means potentially less OpenGL games on other operating systems.

Simple. DX12 translates well to the Xbox. They can probably coax a few developers to make their games for the Xbox One as well as PC using the same API.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Simple. DX12 translates well to the Xbox. They can probably coax a few developers to make their games for the Xbox One as well as PC using the same API.

How does this in any way parlay into Microsoft wanting to badly kill off Mantle? Why does Microsoft care what API is used, if the game runs on Windows then mission accomplished. In fact at this point MS would be happy not to bother with D3D at all, the only reason they stopped sitting on their hands and got serious with DX12 is because of Mantle.

 

[Teizo]

I'm more interested in how much it will cost after year 1 than being able to get it free for a year.

 

[cmdrdredd]

How does this in any way parlay into Microsoft wanting to badly kill off Mantle? Why does Microsoft care what API is used, if the game runs on Windows then mission accomplished. In fact at this point MS would be happy not to bother with D3D at all, the only reason they stopped sitting on their hands and got serious with DX12 is because of Mantle.

Mantle doesn't work on Xbox. If they can kill it, developers have to use DX. That means it will be relatively easy to port games between PC and XB1. Xbox is a huge market for them, why do you think there is so much Windows 10 Xbox integration?

 

[AnandThenMan]

I would imagine MS is hoping that by giving away Win10 for at least a time it will drive more people to the Windows Store. Because currently compared to Apple they are getting absolutely killed in application sales.

Comparing that figure to the Windows Store figure details that Apple is tallying 43.8 times as many downloads per day than Microsoft. And, of course, we’re comparing the best month of the Windows Store’s history, and an average of several Apple months, which is slightly unfair to Apple.

And Windows 8 has a larger install base.

 

[destrekor]

How does this in any way parlay into Microsoft wanting to badly kill off Mantle? Why does Microsoft care what API is used, if the game runs on Windows then mission accomplished. In fact at this point MS would be happy not to bother with D3D at all, the only reason they stopped sitting on their hands and got serious with DX12 is because of Mantle.

Well, all of what you are arguing against is exactly why DirectX is developed and pushed so strongly in the first place.

Having multiple APIs is really not a good thing for gamers. That happened back in the 90s and it caused a mess, not all video cards could play the same games with equal performance. As DirectX became more universal and widespread, compatibility issues were mitigated.

The idea that one card company will have a unique API that ends up crippling performance on other cards is NOT what the gaming community should desire. Yes, the performance goal of a more bare metal API was incredibly beneficial, and perhaps that is what prompted Microsoft to have a more bare metal approach with DirectX. Perhaps that was AMD's goal all along. Who knows... but one strong API, or at least universally-available APIs (OpenGL is available on all GPUs, as is DirectX... Mantle is not), that is what we all should be rooting for.

 

[destrekor]

I'm more interested in how much it will cost after year 1 than being able to get it free for a year.

You have one year to get it for free. It's not free for a year of use and then it will cost you, it's a permanent license for free... provided you "buy" that free license within a year of release.

 

[VirtualLarry]

"If you're not paying for the product, you ARE the product."

Combine this, with the "telemetry" subsystem in Win10 that records every keystroke... you don't think that the NSA has persuaded MS ($$$) to be one big intrusive listening-post into people's online lives? Remember the always-on Kinect cam, thermal sensors, behavior and voice-analyses, etc.?

 

[AnandThenMan]

The idea that one card company will have a unique API that ends up crippling performance on other cards is NOT what the gaming community should desire.

Mantle does no such thing.

... but one strong API, or at least universally-available APIs (OpenGL is available on all GPUs, as is DirectX... Mantle is not), that is what we all should be rooting for.

If Mantle becomes open to use on all hardware then your objection will go away, yes?

 

[cmdrdredd]

Mantle does no such thing.

It does when there is no focus on DX optimization. What's to prevent AMD from getting involved and making features not work or run poorly in DX vs Mantle in a title they are sponsoring? Not at all dissimilar to Nvidia Gameworks shutting out features from AMD users.

You can agree that is pretty bad for gamers no? It needs to be a level playing field. DirectX gives us just that. We shouldn't have to buy a card based on what games we are interested in because some games run poorly or features are locked out on one brand vs another. We should be able to pick a card we like based on performance, our budget, and the card's featureset.