When I said that I would not upgrade to Windows 10 for DX12...

[VirtualLarry]

It will be interesting how they will issue Win10 licenses to Win 7 users.

I'm hoping that you just have to punch in your Win7 key, and they give you a Win10 key, and a link to both 32-bit and 64-bit ISOs.

However, what about Win7 family pack owners? They should get THREE Win10 keys / licenses, since the family pack is three licenses.

 

[AnandThenMan]

It does when there is no focus on DX optimization. What's to prevent AMD from getting involved and making features not work or run poorly in DX vs Mantle in a title they are sponsoring? Not at all dissimilar to Nvidia Gameworks shutting out features from AMD users.

You can agree that is pretty bad for gamers no?

Agreed, if it happens. But AMD does not have a history if this in fact they have a history of being too nice. Nvidia keeps features to themselves and pays off devs to make sure standard DX calls won't run on AMD hardware. AMD does the opposite and allows their own supplied code/effects to run on Nvidia hardware.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Combine this, with the "telemetry" subsystem in Win10 that records every keystroke... you don't think that the NSA has persuaded MS ($$$) to be one big intrusive listening-post into people's online lives? Remember the always-on Kinect cam, thermal sensors, behavior and voice-analyses, etc.?

I'm with you on this I don't trust MS at all in this respect. I'm running Win10 on a spare box and if you fire up PeerBlock the traffic in and out to Microsoft is mind boggling, way way more than in Windows 7.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Agreed, if it happens. But AMD does not have a history if this in fact they have a history of being too nice. Nvidia keeps features to themselves and pays off devs to make sure standard DX calls won't run on AMD hardware. AMD does the opposite and allows their own supplied code/effects to run on Nvidia hardware.

I would argue it is because Nvidia can afford to and AMD really can't based on GPU sales. Either way, I believe it should be up to each of them to make their cards work with DirectX and optimize for the same API.

 

[xthetenth]

"If you're not paying for the product, you ARE the product."

Combine this, with the "telemetry" subsystem in Win10 that records every keystroke... you don't think that the NSA has persuaded MS ($$$) to be one big intrusive listening-post into people's online lives? Remember the always-on Kinect cam, thermal sensors, behavior and voice-analyses, etc.?

Or there's the immediate obvious means of getting money, their app store, which will hopefully see a lot more developers and help out their phone business. All of this of course would be severely hurt if people didn't use the OS because of that.

 

[destrekor]

"If you're not paying for the product, you ARE the product."

Combine this, with the "telemetry" subsystem in Win10 that records every keystroke... you don't think that the NSA has persuaded MS ($$$) to be one big intrusive listening-post into people's online lives? Remember the always-on Kinect cam, thermal sensors, behavior and voice-analyses, etc.?

I believe the telemetry subsystem is only for the tech previews, as it assists with the Insider program in deciding who gets what additional features to test.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I would argue it is because Nvidia can afford to and AMD really can't based on GPU sales. Either way, I believe it should be up to each of them to make their cards work with DirectX and optimize for the same API.

I think it should be up to the game devs to use what API is best. Having only one is great in theory but in practice it ended up causing D3D to stagnate.

As for the people that want Mantle to die, why would you want the one possible advantage AMD has to be taken away, as it is AMD is nearing being a fringe player in graphics. If you're a fan of gaming and graphics hardware you want healthy competition.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Extremely generous by MS to include Windows 7. 8.1 says itself after that flop.

I assume its also to prevent the feareed XP 2.0 legacy bunch.

Gamer wise it looks good for DX12. No excuses.

 

[blastingcap]

Why is it so important to you that Mantle is killed off? And why would MS want to kill off Mantle, the games are running under Windows anyway. If anything Microsoft would want Mantle to succeed, that gives them two distinct APIs running under Windows that supports popular games not one. More Mantle games means potentially less OpenGL games on other operating systems.

As an AMD user with Mantle I was perfectly happy to simply ignore Win10/DX12 and stick with Win7.

But if MSFT is going to give me DX12 for free, I'm not turning that down. So by giving away Win10/DX12, Microsoft has made it so that AMD can't even count on people like me to stick with Mantle.

And without at least some decent Mantle market share I don't know if it will find any traction on Linux either. (Who makes AAA games for Linux? GOOD ones? Most of the AAA action is on PC/console.) I suppose Sony might be willing to consider Mantle on PS4 under the right circumstances, but still...

The point is that Mantle is in a much weaker position now that DX12 is going to be given away free to so many people.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I think it should be up to the game devs to use what API is best. Having only one is great in theory but in practice it ended up causing D3D to stagnate.

As for the people that want Mantle to die, why would you want the one possible advantage AMD has to be taken away, as it is AMD is nearing being a fringe player in graphics. If you're a fan of gaming and graphics hardware you want healthy competition.

Cause at times Mantle is not faster for AMD than DX is running on Nvidia hardware.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Cause at times Mantle is not faster for AMD than DX is running on Nvidia hardware.

You've put a bunch of stuff and tossed it in a blender. It's not an apples to apples comparison at all.

 

[Spjut]

Damn sweet, assuming there isn't something bad Microsoft just waits to reveal.

As for Mantle, the engines that already support it could keep using it.

 

[tential]

You've put a bunch of stuff and tossed it in a blender. It's not an apples to apples comparison at all.

Alright we get it, you love Mantle.

Windows is giving out DX12 Free (supposedly) to basically ALL OF US. Not just AMD GPU owners, but Nvidia as well.

I could of sworn it was users like yourself championing FreeSync/Adaptive Refresher Rate because both AMD and Nvidia "could" use it.

Well this is DX12, free to both Nvidia and AMD GPU owners. Why shouldn't people be excited about this? Why should we worry about Mantle who is tied to only one GPU manufacturer currently?

 

[KingFatty]

by giving away Win10/DX12

I'm still dubious about the "free" of Win 10. Depending how you parse/interpret their statement, it could be that you get the first year of subscription to Win 10 for frree, then after the year you need to start paying the regular subscription fee. They hinted at this, how they wanted to move windows revenue to a services model, sort of like what they have already done with Office where you pay a subscription fee for office.

Either way, I would be willing to try Win 10 for the first year, then just downgrade back to Win 8.1 after the first year if they try to impose a subscription fee at that time. It would be funny if they make you hand over your earlier windows installation keys that are permanently de-activated once you agree to switch to Win 10, so there is no going back heh.

I don't see anywhere microsoft talked about improving gaming performance under Win 10 compared to Win 8.1, so for a gamer, maybe it's best to just stick to what you already have.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Alright we get it, you love Mantle.

I love competition, plus Mantle is really awesome. Best gaming experience so far it utilizes the CPU/GPU very effectively. Something DX12 is striving to do.

I could of sworn it was users like yourself...

Care to explain?

championing FreeSync/Adaptive Refresher Rate because both AMD and Nvidia "could" use it.

I am partial to tech that doesn't tie you to one vendor yes. Nvidia CAN use A-Sync the choice is theirs.

Well this is DX12, free to both Nvidia and AMD GPU owners. Why shouldn't people be excited about this?

We need to all hold the enthusiasm until we actually see DX12 in action.

Why should we worry about Mantle who is tied to only one GPU manufacturer currently?

Why should we worry about PhysX or G-Sync which tie you to only one vendor. Except Mantle doesn't really do that because you can still play all the DX games just as you can on other hardware. If you buy a game and later decide to use an NV GPU, you're fine.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

nvm

 

[skipsneeky2]

Windows 10 free?Isn't only Maxwell supporting DX12 officially? Please correct me if i am wrong. Free from date of release to a whole year?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Windows 10 free?Isn't only Maxwell supporting DX12 officially? Please correct me if i am wrong. Free from date of release to a whole year?

Depends on the support type. Maxwell seems to have full DX12 feature support as well as DX11.3.

GCN, Haswell, Broadwell, Kepler, Fermi got the API support for reduced overhead but doesnt support the new features.

 

[destrekor]

For anyone still not certain regarding the Windows 10 free upgrade, here's the final and clear answer from Microsoft:

It will be a free upgrade for those who choose to upgrade within a year of release. End of story. No additional fees, no subscription.
Sources:
http://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-windows-10-will-not-be-sold-as-a-subscription/
http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2015/01/21/the-next-generation-of-windows-windows-10/

I posted this in the PC gaming section thread discussing Windows 10 as well. Figured it would do well to post here as well.

 

[Teizo]

For anyone still not certain regarding the Windows 10 free upgrade, here's the final and clear answer from Microsoft:

It will be a free upgrade for those who choose to upgrade within a year of release. End of story. No additional fees, no subscription.
Sources:
http://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-windows-10-will-not-be-sold-as-a-subscription/
http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwindows/2015/01/21/the-next-generation-of-windows-windows-10/

I posted this in the PC gaming section thread discussing Windows 10 as well. Figured it would do well to post here as well.

Thank you. I was fixing to down a bottle of Excedrin after reading your earlier post in reply to my question trying to decode it lol.

 

[2is]

It does when there is no focus on DX optimization. What's to prevent AMD from getting involved and making features not work or run poorly in DX vs Mantle in a title they are sponsoring? Not at all dissimilar to Nvidia Gameworks shutting out features from AMD users.

You really think AMD execs are having a meeting about Unoptomizing their cards so it poorly supports the most dominant and widely supported API?

They don't have that luxury.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You really think AMD execs are having a meeting about Unoptomizing their cards so it poorly supports the most dominant and widely supported API?

They don't have that luxury.

Read that again. Make the game so that Mantle works great and DX is just basic compatibility. You aren't changing the drivers, just the optimization in the game to look favorable on your brand. I said nothing about drivers or changing how the cards work. I'm talking about paying off a developer.

 

[2is]

Read that again. Make the game so that Mantle works great and DX is just basic compatibility. You aren't changing the drivers, just the optimization in the game to look favorable on your brand. I said nothing about drivers or changing how the cards work. I'm talking about paying off a developer.

They may do that but I don't think that's a sustainable business model for them.

 

[cmdrdredd]

They may do that but I don't think that's a sustainable business model for them.

Yeah but I mean, having one universally supported API is better for all. I'm not even a fan of Nvidia Gameworks even though I can benefit with my cards.

 

[destrekor]

Thank you. I was fixing to down a bottle of Excedrin after reading your earlier post in reply to my question trying to decode it lol.

I should have used quotation marks to clearly demarcatre the "it's not..." part.