When I said that I would not upgrade to Windows 10 for DX12...

[PingSpike]

I assume when you update your Windows 7 key will no longer function?

 

[Techhog]

I assume when you update your Windows 7 key will no longer function?

It's an upgrade, not an update. The keys become linked though, so you can't reuse it on another computer, but you can reinstall Windows 7 if you wipe your Windows 10 installation.

 

[Sunaiac]

Hmm. Looks like my prediction is coming true.

DX12 will perform better than Mantle, especially when Nvidia's drivers are taken into account.

It's impressive what you can read in an image.
Me, I read in chickens. If they are not too old, When I cut them open (if they are alive of course), I can see the future in their innards.

Speaking of nVidia's drivers, they are taken into accounts when we see a 780 falling to tahiti levels lately ?

 

[destrekor]

The same thing that happens with any upgrade license. You'll likely have an upgrade-edition product key, and then you'll have to call Microsoft to reactivate. You're just getting a free license. It's not something for Windows Update or anything like that.


Something just hit me, though. I have Windows 8.1 Pro. Is there a chance that the Pro version is ineligible since it traditionally costs more? It doesn't really make a difference since I have Dreakspark, but it would be nice to know.

This is from the official blog post:

*Hardware and software requirements apply. No additional charge. Feature availability may vary by device. Some editions excluded. More details at http://www.windows.com.

That may lend to your fear of Pro not being included, however, I don't expect that to honestly be an issue. Windows 8 Pro was $40 for a limited time, and the was only version on sale, I expect the free upgrade license will either match your current installation feature pack, or they might simply shed the Home and Pro nonsense. If they are going to stick to Windows 10 for awhile, like it seems, that would be logical. They COULD just offer both Home and Pro versions for license, and you get to pick, but if they offer both, what you get is probably conditional based upon what flavor you currently have installed.

Frankly, I'm expecting there will finally be no multi-SKU approach. I think the only Editions that won't be included in the free upgrade are Enterprise SKUs, and perhaps any Volume License. I don't think any consumer-oriented edition will be left out of the upgrade, that would be counter-intuitive and will not help Microsoft in their goal to get as many consumers as possible onto Windows 10.

 

[PhIlLy ChEeSe]

Let's connect the dots:

1. The announcement marks a change in strategy to its previous policy of charging for major updates. [so the upgrade is free, but when does the offer for a free upgrade expire?]

2. The offer, which is limited to the OS's first year of release, may aid its adoption. [OK, so they want to give us a free upgrade during the first 12 months window, to aid adoption]

3. That could help avoid a repeat of the relatively slow uptake of Windows 8. [Confirmation of the above]


So what happens after the first 12 months for W7/8.1 users is most likely you'll have to pay for the upgrade since you missed the upgrade window. It doesn't state anywhere in the article that those who upgraded for free in the first 12 months would suddenly be charged a subscription based model thereafter.

Anyway, I said before that rumours all pointed to MS giving Windows 10 as a free upgrade to W7/8.1 users, which makes sense since it's really just a service pack to W7/8.1 with new features. Also, MS is under pressure from Apple that provides free OS upgrades.

So what happens after the 12 months to people who do the free upgrade but then have an issue and need to re install windows? SOL?
That's the question I wanna know..............

 

[destrekor]

So what happens after the 12 months to people who do the free upgrade but then have an issue and need to re install windows? SOL?
That's the question I wanna know..............

This has been answered.

The license you get is a license you permanently own. You have every right to re-install the OS. This is handled like it has always been handled with upgrade licenses from Microsoft: you might need to call the automated phone system to get past the activation screen. That's it. I've done it a few times and not once ever had to talk to a human or explain myself, you punch in a string on the phone, get back a string to type into the installer prompt, and proceed in the installation.

 

[Enigmoid]

It's impressive what you can read in an image.
Me, I read in chickens. If they are not too old, When I cut them open (if they are alive of course), I can see the future in their innards.

Speaking of nVidia's drivers, they are taken into accounts when we see a 780 falling to tahiti levels lately ?

I think Kepler's tanking on recent titles is simply an unoptization for hardware and the weakness of the consoles forcing games to rely on gpu compute which kepler sucks at.

Doubt its simply Nvidia leaving drivers behind.

Recent titles seem extremely poorly optimized.

 

[KingFatty]

Will Windows 10 have media center? That could be one reason not to upgrade if you have Windows 7 or 8.1 with windows media center. It's a nice product, I'm wondering why they aren't competing anymore?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Will Windows 10 have media center? That could be one reason not to upgrade if you have Windows 7 or 8.1 with windows media center. It's a nice product, I'm wondering why they aren't competing anymore?

Media center was already taken out of Windows 8.x and sold as a seperate upgrade.

I wouldnt count on it unfortunately.

 

[biostud]

I would like an updated media player.

 

[2is]

I think Kepler's tanking on recent titles is simply an unoptization for hardware and the weakness of the consoles forcing games to rely on gpu compute which kepler sucks at.

Doubt its simply Nvidia leaving drivers behind.

Recent titles seem extremely poorly optimized.

That may or may not be true, what is true is that drivers are shit for keplar these days. Particularly for SLI. And it's not just scaling, either. With scaling you can try to shift the blame someplace else, at least partially. Let me give you an example. I'll play a game with my SLI 680's, and then for no apparent reason, one card decides to run some 200mhz slower than the other. It's not over heating or throttling, it's just dropping 200 mhz. Or sometimes one card will boost while the other doesn't. Other times neither card will boost and stay at base clocks. Luckily, going into my NV control panel and setting power management mode to "prefer maximum performance" has alleviated much of these clock speed tantrums. But if they can't/aren't getting something as simple as clock speeds to synchronize, I can only imagine how else my cards are being gimped.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Well nvidia may have been more focused on maximizing maxwell as much as possible in the end of year releases. We will see if they do anything to help Kepler.

 

[mindbomb]

yea, i agree with this mantle talk. Next gen amd products will probably also have dx12 support, so in the future, going with mantle would only really benefit two GPUs, namely tahiti and hawaii since no one seemed to buy tonga and pitcairn is getting pretty slow by today's standards, and the other models aren't suitable for gaming. So it wouldn't make sense to add an entire seperate api just for them.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Using my GFs box for VM tho.

 

[RampantAndroid]

yea, i agree with this mantle talk. Next gen amd products will probably also have dx12 support, so in the future, going with mantle would only really benefit two GPUs, namely tahiti and hawaii since no one seemed to buy tonga and pitcairn is getting pretty slow by today's standards, and the other models aren't suitable for gaming. So it wouldn't make sense to add an entire seperate api just for them.

I think the only way I see Mantle doing well is if they explicitly omit DX12 support in favor of Mantle support. Kinda like force Glide into the equation again...

However, I see this strategy really backfiring if they do it. Some games will just support DX12, DX11 and skip on Mantle, meaning that people running Nvidia cards will see any new features in DX12 while the AMD users won't...now, if Mantle already had a majority of games being released with DX and Mantle support this would be a different story.

 

[blastingcap]

I hear that DX12 or something like it will be used in Xbox One soon. If so, that's another nail in the coffin. I wonder what Sony intends to do, if anything, about a PS4 low-level API.

Edit to add: when I wrote PS4 low-level API I meant on par or better than DX12. You'd think that'd be obvious but I'm spelling it out for those who seem to be interpreting it differently.

 

[destrekor]

I hear that DX12 or something like it will be used in Xbox One soon. If so, that's another nail in the coffin. I wonder what Sony intends to do, if anything, about a PS4 low-level API.

Of course Sony has a low-level API. That's how consoles work, plain and simple. Sony uses a Linux kernel IIRC, so most likely they are working with OpenGL-based APIs. The entire nature of consoles has been closely-integrated low-level access across the whole platform. Microsoft has simply gone the smartest way they could when it comes to Microsoft platforms, and did what they could to integrate DirectX APIs as much as they could into the original Xbox (which was basically a compact PC with wholesale PC parts - Intel CPU, Nvidia GPU, a 5.25" DVD-ROM drive and 3.5" HDD).

I don't know how the Xbox 360 worked in regard to APIs, but they've returned to standard PC hardware in the XBONE and currently have a Direct3D 11.3 API in there, or at least a sort-of 11.3 if not full-blown 11.3.

In relation to Direct3D 12.0, 11.3 offers much of what 12.0 offers, just scaled back a bit. Both 11.3 and 12.0 will be available for Windows 10, not sure if 11.3 will be ported to previous versions of Windows.

Regardless, XBONE will get 12.0, but it won't be such a revolutionary step for games on that platform as it will be for PC gaming, because as stated previously, more than half of the benefits of 12.0 were already implemented in the XBONE APIs, all of which was currently unavailable for PC. Mantle is sort of Direct3D 11.3, made a little differently and specific to their hardware. AMD worked with Microsoft to develop the APIs for XBONE, so I wouldn't doubt if 11.3 performed no differently for AMD GPUs as compared to Mantle.

I'm still trying to figure out if GCN is compatible with the full DirectX 12.0 feature set, at least as currently ratified. I've heard that it is, and that it is only partially compatible with Direct3D 12.0, and that the GTX 9xx/Maxwell series is the only GPU currently compatible with 12.0 in every way.
That bit is still involved in deciding which GPU I buy right now.

 

[ctsoth]

It does when there is no focus on DX optimization. What's to prevent AMD from getting involved and making features not work or run poorly in DX vs Mantle in a title they are sponsoring? Not at all dissimilar to Nvidia Gameworks shutting out features from AMD users.

You can agree that is pretty bad for gamers no? It needs to be a level playing field. DirectX gives us just that. We shouldn't have to buy a card based on what games we are interested in because some games run poorly or features are locked out on one brand vs another. We should be able to pick a card we like based on performance, our budget, and the card's featureset.

Perhaps as Mantle matures it will open up some unique features or performance advantages on AMD cards, but I find it severely unlikely that game developers would stand an API that nukes nvidia hardware.

No developer in their right mind is going to build a game around an API that limit's the games adoption to a fraction of the PC market.....

 

[blastingcap]

Of course Sony has a low-level API.

I think implicit in what I wrote was a low-level API on par with DX12 or better.

 

[destrekor]

I think implicit in what I wrote was a low-level API on par with DX12 or better.

Entirely different approach. And that part actually doesn't even matter, it's all about what gets bought.
Dev's are using the PS4 as the lead platform. And I think performance figures have shown thus far that the DX 11.3 APIs aren't helping the XBONE perform better than the PS4. DX 12 might be enough to boost it, and I think everything in the end will get Microsoft the sales numbers they have finally be wanting for their console, but I don't know if API is going to matter. FWIW, I have no vested interest in either console, and frankly don't care. I plan on eventually getting a PS4 for the typical Sony exclusive content, because I've always enjoyed their games... but the XBONE has always been mightily enticing, especially if WMC is to die a slow death at the hands of Microsoft and Sony doesn't step up their game in terms of extra bonuses. On the grounds of pure gaming, Sony wins right now; bonuses, Microsoft wins.

 

[Pottuvoi]

I think implicit in what I wrote was a low-level API on par with DX12 or better.

GNM seems to be quite nice, have only heard good things about it. (Pretty much like LibGCM on Ps3)
http://develop.scee.net/files/presentations/gceurope2013/ParisGC2013Final.pdf

It allows some very nice things like acces to vertex interpolators within pixel shader and so on.. (Something I would love to see in DX12.)

 

[Lorne]

I think some of you are so confused about how APIs work and how the GFX MFG optimize drivers for there products.

Mantle optimizes by using parts of OGL as does CUDA, If DX were to stop Mantle from working then they would also stop CUDA.
Anything MS brings to the table for a newer DX will have to be optimized in to the drivers by the MFGs.
MS make drivers and API universal, So all product MFG can follow or build drivers with in guidelines, But there not perfect by ether side.
Sometimes MFG make a decision to make changes to cut or remove bloat from programming to shrink or optimize (ie why Win7 does not support DX8 (might be DX9 also) or earlier GFX cards), New hardware has come to light now that is showing higher speeds by moving to the PCIe bus and dumping a massive bloat of the SATA structure.

Will some of the newer features not work in older GFX cards, Its possible but in most cases drivers will be the main decider and that's up to the MFGs otherwise the calls can just be bypassed.

In any case both AMD and Nvidia will benefit from DX12 and so will there optimizations of Mantle and CUDA.

Seriously some of you (fanboys) really need to stop the dissing of other MFG and find a ways to make the underdogs better, Othewise we all lose.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Perhaps as Mantle matures it will open up some unique features or performance advantages on AMD cards, but I find it severely unlikely that game developers would stand an API that nukes nvidia hardware.

No developer in their right mind is going to build a game around an API that limit's the games adoption to a fraction of the PC market.....

Another reason DirectX is the better option for us all.

 

[RussianSensation]

Another reason DirectX is the better option for us all.

You seem either confused about AMD's Mantle or haven't followed reviews of Mantle games. Instead of painting it as Mantle vs. DX, it has always been Mantle OR DX. AMD never forces you to choose. If Mantle was horribly broken and AMD's DX drivers took a hit, then it would be a big problem. Coincidentally, the exact opposite has happened. AMD's GCN drivers are way better than NV's DX Kepler, while in games where Mantle exists like BF4, CiV:BE, Mantle works even better than DX. In other words, Mantle doesn't hurt NV nor AMD users. It provides an added bonus to GCN cards, but was in no way ever meant to replace DX11/12 permanently. Therefore, no it doesn't benefit all of us if Mantle dies. If Mantle exists, there is potential for CF to work better (smoother aka CiV BE).

Worst case, Mantle forced MS to adopt DX12 much faster. Before Mantle MS was reluctant to admit, much less openly talk about the major CPU overhead in DX11. Since not 1 major developer has announced any new DX12 game as far as I am aware, right now GCN can still and WILL benefit from Mantle titles that say EA will release. While no one can predict if Mantle will completely disappear in 3, 5 or 10 years, it doesn't actually hurt AMD or NV gamers, despite the narrative that it does. This idea that AMD will prioritize Mantle over DX is even more absurd considering 290X is now faster than a 970/780Ti, has narrowed its lead against the 980, while 780/Titan are barely beating 280X/7970Ghz in some big AAA recent games.

 

[MisterLilBig]

Why bother with DX12 when we can all wait for OGL Next and games will run everywhere, not just on Windows!? lol

Mantle is not a bad idea and it wont die. Would be useful if AMD ever decides to do an Android fork or something Linux.

Apple makes a low level api and language and gets all the praise in the world. AMD does the same thing, and more and its all bad, useless and wrong.


I hope DX12 is locked to Windows 10 and above only. And Microsoft should sell a super discounted license to WinXP users to get them out of that old OS already.