When is it cool to propose having two Americas?

[Chaotic42]

Seems like you would do it by state, not by county and as always geographic maps are highly misleading as they measure dirt, not people. If you do it by state you can get some pretty decent contiguous areas.

Basically you would have the northeast and the west coast going their own way and the middle/south going theirs. There would be a couple of problematic states in the middle though, yes.

Also, I doubt some states that voted for Trump would want to be part of a new Conservastan.

Why would the populations of a few large cities warrant the Liberal country getting the whole state? It would be fairly easy to split off California into a Liberal and Conservative side. The Conservative country would have virtually all of the natural resources, farmland, and fresh water, which would be problematic for the Liberal country.

I don't want to live in either one. I'd want to start my own country of reasonable people who disagree but can at least function like rational adults. We'd have liberty, a sense of community plus blackjack and hookers. You know what, forget the liberty and sense of community.

 

[fskimospy]

Why would the populations of a few large cities warrant the Liberal country getting the whole state? It would be fairly easy to split off California into a Liberal and Conservative side. The Conservative country would have virtually all of the natural resources, farmland, and fresh water, which would be problematic for the Liberal country.

Have you been to the inland parts of California? They are horrible. In case of a split the conservative half of California would have the lowest per-capita income of any state in the union, Mississippi included. The liberal half would be the richest state in the union and could secure natural resources just fine while the conservative half would honestly probably be in need of almost immediate humanitarian intervention.

As to why the populations of a few large cities warrant getting the whole state it would be because you have to stop subdividing sometime and states are the smallest sovereign subdivisions we have. (counties only exist so long as the state government wants them to)

I don't want to live in either one. I'd want to start my own country of reasonable people who disagree but can at least function like rational adults. We'd have liberty, a sense of community plus blackjack and hookers. You know what, forget the liberty and sense of community.

Haha while I'm down with the blackjack and hookers I think the idea of the rational middle is a myth. There's little evidence this exists; it is mostly within the heads of people who define themselves as the reasonable middle as they usually have quite extreme policy views.

 

[Chaotic42]

Have you been to the inland parts of California? They are horrible. In case of a split the conservative half of California would have the lowest per-capita income of any state in the union, Mississippi included. The liberal half would be the richest state in the union and could secure natural resources just fine while the conservative half would honestly probably be in need of almost immediate humanitarian intervention.

I've only ever been to San Diego and the "Inland Empire". I need to do a West Coast vacation at some point. I have been to very rural Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico though and they remind me of the poorest parts of Mississippi (where I lived for a number of years) and West Virginia. I could imagine that without the support of the more distant and highly populated South, the extreme western edge of the Conservative nation would be relative easy pickings militarily.

Haha while I'm down with the blackjack and hookers I think the idea of the rational middle is a myth. There's little evidence this exists; it is mostly within the heads of people who define themselves as the reasonable middle as they usually have quite extreme policy views.

There's no rational version of the KKK, Neo-Nazis, 5%ers, etc, but there are plenty of Trump voters who aren't actually racists, but thought he was the least bad candidate. A lot of them are unhappy with him now, but thought maybe he'd tone down once in office. There's a huge chunk of people who are fairly reasonable and while strongly Republican, are able to contribute economically and culturally to society. It's easy to paint them all with a broad brush - some literally do the same thing with the left, assuming that the overwhelming majority want to put them in jail or take everything from them.

I think this is in part due to the ever increasing amount of competition for good jobs. I think most stereotypical WASPs feel that there isn't enough success to go around and they're scared that if *they* aren't in power, other races/religions/viewpoints will oppress them once they get in power. I think it's the vile nature of humanity - if someone has to have an advantage, it should be me.

I don't know what the answer is. I don't know how you make people value meritocracy and compassion, but I'm fairly sure splitting the nation isn't the way to do it.

 

[Ventanni]

Are you really proposing that the United States be split? Are you forgetting that secession from the union is 110% illegal? You do realize that such an action would in absolute no way be peaceful?

Add in the immediate and enormous power vacuum that would occur as a result of the US military pulling out of the entire world?

Add in the immediate contraction of present day mainland US economy due to each "union" instituting trade policies with each other?

If the above happened and you miraculously somehow managed to live through it, fskimospy, I guarantee you would be looking back and reflecting on how foolish you were to propose secession in the first place.

 

[fskimospy]

Are you really proposing that the United States be split? Are you forgetting that secession from the union is 110% illegal? You do realize that such an action would in absolute no way be peaceful?

Add in the immediate and enormous power vacuum that would occur as a result of the US military pulling out of the entire world?

Add in the immediate contraction of present day mainland US economy due to each "union" instituting trade policies with each other?

If the above happened and you miraculously somehow managed to live through it, fskimospy, I guarantee you would be looking back and reflecting on how foolish you were to propose secession in the first place.

I wasn't proposing secession, I was proposing a peaceful split. Unilateral secession is illegal, but a split with the agreement of the federal government is fine.

As far as the other parts go there are good deals and bad deals. There's no requirement that we have a massive, disruptive trade war, that's a policy choice.

 

[MrSquished]

Yet you oppose returning the issue to state legislatures, who can't be trusted to vote the way you want them to?

"Remember Hubert Humphrey, who told "States' Rights" Democrats at the 1948 party convention: "To those who say that this civil-rights program is an infringement on states' rights, I say this: The time has arrived in America for the Democratic Party to get out of the shadow of states' rights and to walk forthrightly into the bright sunshine of human rights.""

Amen to that.

If we gave human rights back to the states the regressive ones would not just ban abortion, but gays, blacks, hispanics and more. I'm with Hubert on this one.

 

[Ventanni]

I wasn't proposing secession, I was proposing a peaceful split. Unilateral secession is illegal, but a split with the agreement of the federal government is fine.

As far as the other parts go there are good deals and bad deals. There's no requirement that we have a massive, disruptive trade war, that's a policy choice.

I think you're being naive, and I say that with a humble heart. There is no peaceful split of the United States. There is no split of the United States, period. That vote would never go through. And even if it did, and the United States was split in a peaceful manner that you're describing, the power vacuum left throughout the world would results in the deaths of hundreds of millions; potentially billions. You really want that blood on your hands?

 

[glenn1]

I think you're being naive, and I say that with a humble heart. There is no peaceful split of the United States. There is no split of the United States, period. That vote would never go through. And even if it did, and the United States was split in a peaceful manner that you're describing, the power vacuum left throughout the world would results in the deaths of hundreds of millions; potentially billions. You really want that blood on your hands?

It wouldn’t be on our hands but rather those who spilled it. It’s not the responsibility of the U.S. in the moral sense or any other way to keep Africans or Middke Easterners from killing each other. We sometimes do intervene when it becomes bad for business to do otherwise.

 

[Greenman]

How ya gonna keep um down on the farm after they seen Paris? You can't even get kids to read once the see TV. You'll go back once you don't have to make a living there, or like I do, looking at vacant land for sale on the internet. And, while you may not be so interested in where the closest school is, you may want to check the time for an ambulance ride to the nearest intensive care unit in case you fall off the porch. Oh, and don't forget about high speed internet.

Medical facility's close by, hi speed internet, half hour from shopping, room for 2 dogs, a goat, a horse, and a shop for me to tinker in. 1600 to 2000 square feet, nearest neighbor no closer than 200 yards. On a river or lake if I can make it happen.
Those are all the things on my list so far. I'll remodel the place if I need to, but I'd rather buy a turnkey setup.

 

[Blackjack200]

I think you're being naive, and I say that with a humble heart. There is no peaceful split of the United States. There is no split of the United States, period. That vote would never go through. And even if it did, and the United States was split in a peaceful manner that you're describing, the power vacuum left throughout the world would results in the deaths of hundreds of millions; potentially billions. You really want that blood on your hands?

LMAO, imagine believing that.