When people say the power of prayer saves lives...

[AMCRambler]

I'd like to hear from someone who believes in God.

Yes, it's a simplistic view. I've brought this up to people who believe in God and normally most become angry. :'(

Until science can explain the reasons for life, the universe and everything (/hitch hikers guide) with irrefutable empirical evidence, there will be large groups of people who choose to believe that a higher power is behind our existence. They will adapt their beliefs occasionally as science proves them wrong but unless a grand unified theory or something like that can be proven, there are plenty of holes in our knowledge where faith will be used to fill the gaps.

I like to believe that maybe they're correct. Perhaps there is some intelligent design to our universe and everything in it. Nature seems too random to me for life to be a happy accident. And like Jack Nicholson said in the Bucket List when Morgan Freeman asked him what if he was wrong about there being no god: "Wrong? I'd love to be wrong. If I'm wrong, I win!"

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Until science can explain the reasons for life, the universe and everything (/hitch hikers guide) with irrefutable empirical evidence, there will be large groups of people who choose to believe that a higher power is behind our existence. They will adapt their beliefs occasionally as science proves them wrong but unless a grand unified theory or something like that can be proven, there are plenty of holes in our knowledge where faith will be used to fill the gaps.

I like to believe that maybe they're correct. Perhaps there is some intelligent design to our universe and everything in it. Nature seems too random to me for life to be a happy accident. And like Jack Nicholson said in the Bucket List when Morgan Freeman asked him what if he was wrong about there being no god: "Wrong? I'd love to be wrong. If I'm wrong, I win!"

You are making a statement of faith when you say "until science can explain". In fact it seems highly improbable that we can drill down through reality to a sufficient point where we have that. There's a problem which has been around, a huge elephant in the room of science, and that is "what happens if the truth of things is beyond any possibly derived experimental evidence?" There are a number of troubling but compelling ideas such as string theory which seem to have no way to directly verify. Other explanations could account for particular phenomena. When a wave function collapses into an objectively discernable result does one possibility occur or do all happen and our realities split off? That last explanation is seriously entertained but how do you test for that which by definition is cut of from us entirely? Oh we may have indications one way or another, but that's not measurable, tangible, demonstrable. So the discussion is what will eventually constitute "correctness" in science. What will be accepted at "factual truth"? In the end it may be that we are fundamentally limited in how closely we can examine the natural world in which case all that lies beyond is a singularity hiding behind an impenetrable event horizon. At that point proper science ends, then what?

 

[lxskllr]

You are making a statement of faith when you say "until science can explain". In fact it seems highly improbable that we can drill down through reality to a sufficient point where we have that. There's a problem which has been around, a huge elephant in the room of science, and that is "what happens if the truth of things is beyond any possibly derived experimental evidence?" There are a number of troubling but compelling ideas such as string theory which seem to have no way to directly verify. Other explanations could account for particular phenomena. When a wave function collapses into an objectively discernable result does one possibility occur or do all happen and our realities split off? That last explanation is seriously entertained but how do you test for that which by definition is cut of from us entirely? Oh we may have indications one way or another, but that's not measurable, tangible, demonstrable. So the discussion is what will eventually constitute "correctness" in science. What will be accepted at "factual truth"? In the end it may be that we are fundamentally limited in how closely we can examine the natural world in which case all that lies beyond is a singularity hiding behind an impenetrable event horizon. At that point proper science ends, then what?

Your thinking is too short term. I have faith that science will solve many questions in some indeterminate time frame. That might be 10,000 years from now, but I can wait. It's also a certainty that there will be questions it can't solve, or didn't even think to ask. That's fine too. I don't have to know everything(impossible anyway), but I want the stuff I do know to be grounded in fact. Not some made up story that fills gaps in knowledge.

 

[alzan]

That's precisely why I ended my post with "you be the judge".



Getting "upset" over what some random stranger thanks is immature.

I thought according to Christians that no one is to judge, that there is only one judge

The OP was not the person that was upset, he posted the article about people who disagreed with and/or concerned about the girls misplaced "thanks" and gave his comments.

 

[KlokWyze]

Society might not ever truly recover from the intellectual death grip religion has and continues to have on it.

Religions having such a powerful and effective in pact on political, scientific, etc. issues is disturbing. Most people are truly incapable of see it for what it is. Childish, fearful superstition of the unknown and an archaic way to teach people moral behavior.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Your thinking is too short term. I have faith that science will solve many questions in some indeterminate time frame. That might be 10,000 years from now, but I can wait. It's also a certainty that there will be questions it can't solve, or didn't even think to ask. That's fine too. I don't have to know everything(impossible anyway), but I want the stuff I do know to be grounded in fact. Not some made up story that fills gaps in knowledge.

There are questions that will be answered, but there is a naive tendency to expect science to provide answers about the meaning of things. Well there is no meaning. People ascribe a purpose to evolution. There is no such thing as purpose. A ball falls when dropped. There's no purpose to that. It just is.

I pick string theory and if you want to know why you can learn the power required to examine things on the distance scale of strings. It's not going to happen. Now it's possible to infer much, but if direct experimental evidence of fundamentally important questions cannot be obtained will the standards of "evidence" and "proof" be changed? That's already being suggested on the basis of mathematical consistency and "beauty" by researchers in certain fields, and I expect that pressure will continue. At that point we're not having faith in our ability to learn more, but declaring the unprovable to be sufficient and science does become faith.

I strongly resist that possibility.

 

[Darwin333]

Just came across the Nina Pham article. Seems people are upset because she thanked God for saving her life, but in reality it was the medical staff, and science that saved her from an awful death. In reality, she would have died.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/nurse-cured-ebola-thanks-god-atheists-furious/

Just curious. Where was God when...

Pol Pot killed 1.5m Cambodians.
Hitler murdered 6m Jews
The Spanish Empire wiped out the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas
Stalin murdered 20-50m of his own people
America nearly wiped out the indigenous peoples of North America
Nearly 10 thousand people have died from Ebola this year alone

I could go on. The point I'm trying to make is if there is a God why didn't he/she do anything to save these poor people? Why is her life more important than 6m Jews? It just seems crazy when people like Ms. Pham makes those type of statements.

Those other assholes weren't "good" Christians so they didn't deserve gods kindness or compassion.

 

[Paladin3]

See above in Red.
Belief IS a choice. So, you're hoping there's still going to be time to change your mind if, it's proven to you in a way you can accept? What's the difference in the end result do you think between betting against God and refusing to place a bet?

What? That makes no sense. As a loving father, my children's welfare is far more important to me than their free will. How could I ever expect them to love or respect me if I let them suffer without lifting a finger to stop it if I could?

I understand learning your lessons the hard way. Letting my kids try and fail can sometimes be a good lesson. I don't think you can call God letting Hitler or Pol Pot do what they did the same thing though.

 

[Paladin3]

So, free will should only exist when it's not used for something really bad? Who decides?

If God exists as described in The Bible then maybe *HE* should! Man supposedly isn't even meant to so much as direct his own steps, or so I read.

I like free will and all, but if I'm going to believe I'm the child in this relationship, and He the loving father, then how about a little help down here.

A butt-ton of innocent people who died horrific deaths over the centuries were doing their best to follow that little Bible of his. Is this just all part of his plan that I'm too human to understand?

 

[Paladin3]

It amuses me when people get so upset about people praying. If it does not matter or mean anything to you, why do you all get so upset? Haha

I'm not upset that people pray, I rather like it actually, so long as their prayer doesn't prevent rational action. The concept that we might someday have to answer to a higher authority can help some people play nice when they otherwise wouldn't.

Now here's a little story: I photographed the trial of an extremely religious couple who were charged in the starvation death of their 14 year old daughter. The seemed to have loved their daughter dearly, so they trusted in God and prayed for her recovery. They prayed hard but treat her at home rather than get her the medical attention she needed. When she died she weighed 44lbs.

Where was God? Couldn't he have helped that poor little girl? Couldn't he have talked some sense to her misguided parents so they would get her the care she needed to live? After all, they were trusting in him, praying and begging for his help.

And I'm expected to worship a father who treats his children this way?

 

[Paladin3]

In all seriousness, to think that we as humans should be able to "understand the mind/will of God" is pretty arrogant. It would be the equivalent of thinking that a toddler knows the mind/will of his/her parents. A child does not necessarily know, agree with, understand, or like the decisions that parents make on his/her behalf, but we do it anyway and for his/her benefit. Like parents, God asks that we believe and trust in Him, but are not always given the answers to understand. Does this mean that a child should consider his/her parent mean, powerless, arrogant, self serving, etc.?

This is the eternal argument: You can't understand because you aren't capable of it. Just accept it as truth regardless of how much your spider senses are tingling.

Proof, evidence, release from suffering, eternal happiness, etc., all these rewards will come to you at another unknown time in another unseen place. After you're dead.

Your obedience, devotion, worship and money, well, those things God wants from you right now. Later won't be good enough. As pointed out previously, this is logic even a child would reject.

 

[Darwin333]

I'm not the one trying to sell the idea that free will is so important to preserve that it justifies standing by while millions of Jews are brutally tortured and murdered. Maybe you should respond to him.

God didn't mind getting involved in the past, killing a ton of innocent children no less, because his people were being persecuted by an asshole the innocent children had nothing to do with. Why can't he send the flaming sword dude back every once in a while to take care of the major assholes. By that I mean the actual asshole, like Hitler, instead of all the Germans first born children who really had little say in the fucked up shit going on.

To be fair, he turned the place into such a shithole before killing the innocent babies that he probably did them a favor by sending some guy to stick a flaming sword up said babies asses. Still seems like a dick move to me when he could have just had the asshole stick the flaming sword up the Pharoes ass and gotten the same results.

 

[Josefinamax]

I did not say it. Just feel it.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I've always taken this song as a spiritual inspiration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMYdmMKNv1w

 

[pontifex]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk7MXWQOAM

 

[disappoint]

You guys need to have more faith that one day religion will be obsolete.

 

[JEDIYoda]

At that point we're not having faith in our ability to learn more, but declaring the unprovable to be sufficient and science does become faith.

Now that is profound in many good ways!!
Happy New Year!!

 

[qliveur]

The point I'm trying to make is that individuals are quick to denounce God and His word, but they do not read it. I know that when I make posts like these, I will never persuade you or anyone to Christ through logic or reason. Never. Not a single one. Why? Because that's just not how it works. That's not how people work. Never once will you see me spew anger and vitriol to someone who doesn't agree with me. Everyone's thoughts and beliefs are valid and important, and I will do as my Father in heaven and love you all the same. But I will point out that unless you take the time to read the Bible and understand what it says, you have no authority to speak on behalf of it.

And that's why I say, read it for yourselves. Don't let someone else decide for you what you think.

You know, actually reading the Bible, and not just the passages that were cherry-picked by my pastor, Sunday school and catechism teachers, played a major role in my becoming an atheist.

 

[disappoint]

You know, actually reading the Bible, and not just the passages that were cherry-picked by my pastor, Sunday school and catechism teachers, played a major role in my becoming an atheist.

That'll do it. I'll drink to that. Here's to more Bible study! Not less. If you're going to be religious, be really religious. Please!

 

[HeavyD]

You know, actually reading the Bible, and not just the passages that were cherry-picked by my pastor, Sunday school and catechism teachers, played a major role in my becoming an atheist.

That'll do it. I'll drink to that. Here's to more Bible study! Not less. If you're going to be religious, be really religious.
Please!

So true, I cared whether my beliefs were true so much that I started to research the history of Christianity, how the Bible was made actually READING the Bible and not just the good parts they teach. I had no idea their are three different versions of Christ resurrection in the Bible but Bible scholars knew this all along. I was worshiping mythological beings all this time and didn't have a clue.

 

[Jeff7]

You know, actually reading the Bible, and not just the passages that were cherry-picked by my pastor, Sunday school and catechism teachers, played a major role in my becoming an atheist.

I've tried going through The Bible already.

I liked the stories of the Greek gods that we heard about back in school. Those were entertaining characters, but that was aided by the fact that the religion was obsolete. Mt Olympus featured no palaces or parking garages for golden godly chariots.


But it's more unsettling to know that people today, and many of them, regard The Bible's contents as divine truth, and that's what made it impossible for me to get through much of it. It's like some kind of systemic bug in the basic programming in our brains that makes us susceptible to this kind of thinking. "Everything needs to have a reason for existing! Why does it need a reason? Because it just does!"
Physics happened. We're here because this universe's basic properties permit our existence. Oops. Oh well, might as well make the best of it.

So true, I cared whether my beliefs were true so much that I started to research the history of Christianity, how the Bible was made actually READING the Bible and not just the good parts they teach. I had no idea their are three different versions of Christ resurrection in the Bible but Bible scholars knew this all along. I was worshiping mythological beings all this time and didn't have a clue.

You also would have to hope that, out of the thousands of available deities to choose from, you've chosen the right one(s).
Wouldn't it really suck if the correct religion doesn't exist yet, especially if it included a no-backsies clause? There was a time when the world had precisely zero Christians, and heck, no Jews either if you want to go back a little further.
"Hey there, you're dead now! We've never met, but I'd like for you to accept me as the one true God, and stick with that decision for the rest of eternity."

 

[RandomWords]

What? That makes no sense. As a loving father, my children's welfare is far more important to me than their free will. How could I ever expect them to love or respect me if I let them suffer without lifting a finger to stop it if I could? I understand learning your lessons the hard way. Letting my kids try and fail can sometimes be a good lesson. I don't think you can call God letting Hitler or Pol Pot do what they did the same thing though.

You play the why game, I guess it's fair to play the what if game:
what if you don't see the whole picture?
What if - by not allowing that event - 10 million more people would have died because of something that happens? Is that suppose to be a better result?
What if thousands of those killed were just as much of murderers?
What if that innocent child would have been another hitler? How many hitlers have been killed as babies?
What if those parents truly wanted their child to die? What if the child wanted to die? Can you tell me their real thoughts?
Think of how many were influenced by an event - if an event didn't happen - the influences over those outside of that event never would have happened - would we have the technology we do today - what would have not occurred? what would have occurred?

Asking people who believe in God to explain everything in why he does what he does - would be the same as expecting you to be able to give the possible scenarios of what would have happened if those people would have lived - what would have happened if that person had not suffered - who did that affect - what did her story affect?

I don't see it as such an evil as you do. You think that is harsh to let people die and no father would do such a thing - but - if I had twelve children - and there was a choice in front of me - I would sacrifice one to save eleven. Humans make that choice everyday to save thousands by sacrificing a few. Sometimes they are faithful and good - and better they be faithful and good. You may not see it as "a few" but then - how many people have been on this planet, and how many will still come? It is a few in comparison.

You know, actually reading the Bible, and not just the passages that were cherry-picked by my pastor, Sunday school and catechism teachers, played a major role in my becoming an atheist

It strangely had the opposite effect on me - but then, I read it in order of events. I don't know how you read it... and yes, I have gone over the science portion too and the anti-science portion to that science portion and the science portion to that anti-science portion and so on... it's quite exhausting to ferret out each side and give them adequate consideration without viewing what one side gives as a stopping point - but looking further into it - it really never stops.

It's very simple to me - I have my faith, its stronger than most things, perhaps it's wrong but its mine and no one is taking it away from me - bible and science be damned. Does it see me through things - absolutely not - nor do I want it to most of the time. Do I pray - occasionally but not to ask for anything or even to say thanks. Do I ever say thanks - yes - there are times... there are also times I have gambled my life because I truly didn't care if I died - either something was going to intervene or I was going to die... but then... it wasn't for the purpose of God to prove himself either.

 

[Jeff7]

You play the why game, I guess it's fair to play the what if game:
what if you don't see the whole picture?
What if - by not allowing that event - 10 million more people would have died because of something that happens? Is that suppose to be a better result?
What if thousands of those killed were just as much of murderers?
What if that innocent child would have been another hitler? How many hitlers have been killed as babies?
What if those parents truly wanted their child to die? What if the child wanted to die? Can you tell me their real thoughts?
Think of how many were influenced by an event - if an event didn't happen - the influences over those outside of that event never would have happened - would we have the technology we do today - what would have not occurred? what would have occurred?

Asking people who believe in God to explain everything in why he does what he does - would be the same as expecting you to be able to give the possible scenarios of what would have happened if those people would have lived - what would have happened if that person had not suffered - who did that affect - what did her story affect?

I don't see it as such an evil as you do. You think that is harsh to let people die and no father would do such a thing - but - if I had twelve children - and there was a choice in front of me - I would sacrifice one to save eleven. Humans make that choice everyday to save thousands by sacrificing a few. Sometimes they are faithful and good - and better they be faithful and good. You may not see it as "a few" but then - how many people have been on this planet, and how many will still come? It is a few in comparison.
...

But we need to make difficult decisions because we don't have the ability to do it any other way. We have to work within the confines of our limited resources as humans.

This God entity is said to have made everything from scratch, right down to the basic physics which everything follows. This God is the engineer, programmer, and maintainer, and is also equipped with infinite power, knowledge, and ability.
Why would such an entity ever even be faced with a "sacrifice some to save many" type of decision? For his own amusement? As a debugging exercise? Win a philosophical argument?
Why create such a horrid environment where terrible decisions like that would even be necessary for his beloved creations?
It's one of the Saw movies, except most of the trapped victims firmly believe that Jigsaw loves them and should be revered.

 

[RandomWords]

This God entity is said to have made everything from scratch, right down to the basic physics which everything follows. This God is the engineer, programmer, and maintainer, and is also equipped with infinite power, knowledge, and ability. Why would such an entity ever even be faced with a "sacrifice some to save many" type of decision? For his own amusement? As a debugging exercise? Win a philosophical argument? Why create such a horrid environment where terrible decisions like that would even be necessary for his beloved creations? It's one of the Saw movies, except most of the trapped victims firmly believe that Jigsaw loves them and should be revered.

And maybe by creating us in the way he did - he limited himself. After all, we got free will (I know a lot of people throw that out there) - but perhaps that limits what he can do. Which seems bizzare; why would he do that? can't he undo it? ... This is a huge hypothesis - I think he could by destroying everyone; but I wouldn't kill all my children because it was difficult for me to do things a certain way. Then you probably think that doesn't make him all powerful then - I disagree.

I suddenly heard "what about the flood then?" - what about it - according to science it didn't happen... soooo.... prove to me it happened first.

 

[RandomWords]

Why create such a horrid environment where terrible decisions like that would even be necessary for his beloved creations?

and this is different - I think he designed 'choice' - not a horrid environment. I think he made a great environment where he probably should have left out 'choice' - for some reason he wanted that thrown in and didn't want mindless obedient drones (how I see angels)... but then... I couldn't fathom what was behind it.