When people say the power of prayer saves lives...

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RandomWords

Senior member
Jun 11, 2014
633
5
81
But we need to make difficult decisions because we don't have the ability to do it any other way. We have to work within the confines of our limited resources as humans.

and do we actually NEED to make many of those decisions - do we decide the best choice? Is it because of our limited resources that prevents better outcomes? So many times we don't even make the choice to save thousands over a few - so many times we make terrible choices despite a better choice... most of us are self serving - so NEED to is a strong phrase - most of the time our decisions are based on want- we WANT to EVEN if we have abilities to make it better.
 
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Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
And maybe by creating us in the way he did - he limited himself.
Though such a thing would have been through his own choosing.
Unless we can strike some basic properties of God:
- Infinite knowledge
- Infinite capability

Of course, if we do that, God goes from some kind of supernatural entity to simply being a life form like us, only far more advanced, perhaps as far beyond us as we are over cats, or even as we are over bacteria.
I've seen how we deal with bacteria. We're not usually concerned with the subtle interactions between individual microbes. We have no qualms about freezing or packaging certain microbes by the millions, thawing them and putting them into a paradise of an environment, and then putting the bread dough into the oven and slaughter them en masse.
(What are the main things that yeast produce? Alcohol and carbon dioxide. We've got a knack for that as well. :hmm




After all, we got free will (I know a lot of people throw that out there) - but perhaps that limits what he can do. Which seems bizzare; why would he do that? can't he undo it? ... This is a huge hypothesis - I think he could by destroying everyone; but I wouldn't kill all my children because it was difficult for me to do things a certain way. Then you probably think that doesn't make him all powerful then - I disagree.
Free will: A fun philosophical argument. It is able to exist and not exist at the same time. It depends on perspective.
IF one could know the complete state of a system such as the human mind at any one point in time, it should then be possible to build a model or simulation that is capable of predict its responses to any stimuli. So in that case, free will does not exist, right?
However, there's that perspective thing: If you don't know of the information contained in the simulation, you could perhaps say that you have free will.

If granting us free will did indeed limit his options, either that was entirely of his own choosing, or else he is indeed a limited life form, and he accidentally created a design flaw but didn't want to fix it for whatever reason. Earth didn't work out, but there are billions upon billions of other planets out there. Sometimes it's easier to start fresh than it is to try to fix a mountain of buggy code. (Though, again, if this is the entity that created the Universe, he seems awfully focused on the behavioral quirks of one form of primate on a single small planet nestled among untold trillions of galaxies.)



And isn't that a fun thought: God as the designer, engineer, and programmer. In our world, there are people who do those things, but they're really terrible at it. God's just one of 100 billion of his species, and he's one of their worst spacetime engineers.






and do we actually NEED to make many of those decisions - do we decide the best choice? Is it because of our limited resources that prevents better outcomes? So many times we don't even make the choice to save thousands over a few - so many times we make terrible choices despite a better choice... most of us are self serving - so NEED to is a strong phrase - most of the time our decisions are based on want- we WANT to EVEN if we have abilities to make it better.
"Want" and "need" certainly blur together at some point.
Your examples of making extraordinary sacrifices: Are they wants or needs? Whose wants and needs are they, and whose are more relevant?
I need food. Why? Because I want to live.
Oh.
Why do I want to live? Presumably because life forms that have some sort of ingrained drive to remain alive will tend to survive, so our response of "I want to stay alive" is an evolved behavior that came about as the result of natural selection. The "I don't really give a damn" genes didn't make it past the first bacterium that didn't distance itself from a toxic ocean vent.


What can be classified as a need?
 
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RandomWords

Senior member
Jun 11, 2014
633
5
81
If granting us free will did indeed limit his options, either that was entirely of his own choosing, or else he is indeed a limited life form, and he accidentally created a design flaw but didn't want to fix it for whatever reason

You're right - he could have chosen it - as authors choose to write books; where you see a design flaw - is also perspective - who says it is a flaw? To you it is a flaw; to science I believe they say it is a flaw. To me it isn't a flaw at all. I'm going to over simplify it by using the example that saying small breasts on women is a flaw - is it a flaw? Some would say so. It all depends on who does the looking.

I've seen how we deal with bacteria. We're not usually concerned with the subtle interactions between individual microbes. We have no qualms about freezing or packaging certain microbes by the millions, thawing them and putting them into a paradise of an environment, and then putting the bread dough into the oven and slaughter them en masse. (What are the main things that yeast produce? Alcohol and carbon dioxide. We've got a knack for that as well. )

This is quite funny (I'm not sure why; it's also cute - maybe its the imagination of millions of bacteria screaming as they turn into deliciousness; maybe the thought of alcohol) - I love it. I do. It's absolutely beautiful - in the way poetry can be.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
I've tried going through The Bible already.

I liked the stories of the Greek gods that we heard about back in school. Those were entertaining characters, but that was aided by the fact that the religion was obsolete. Mt Olympus featured no palaces or parking garages for golden godly chariots.


But it's more unsettling to know that people today, and many of them, regard The Bible's contents as divine truth, and that's what made it impossible for me to get through much of it. It's like some kind of systemic bug in the basic programming in our brains that makes us susceptible to this kind of thinking. "Everything needs to have a reason for existing! Why does it need a reason? Because it just does!"
Physics happened. We're here because this universe's basic properties permit our existence. Oops. Oh well, might as well make the best of it.




You also would have to hope that, out of the thousands of available deities to choose from, you've chosen the right one(s).
Wouldn't it really suck if the correct religion doesn't exist yet, especially if it included a no-backsies clause? There was a time when the world had precisely zero Christians, and heck, no Jews either if you want to go back a little further.
"Hey there, you're dead now! We've never met, but I'd like for you to accept me as the one true God, and stick with that decision for the rest of eternity."

The salvation opportunity of those before Christ is established in the new testament. Further, the nature of salvation and sin is established there too. It's not the radical-hell-fire dogma you've been lead to believe.

Try reading the bible again, this time start with Mark and wherever you go, stay in the new testament. That will give you a much better sense of what Christians say they should believe.

Here's an example of a new-testament verse that never seems to get through to the preachers, much less the congregation
Ephesians 2:8-10 said:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.or we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This is far more than "don't be a dick" at once it says there's nothing that any Christian did to earn being a Christian and but instead being a Christian is given to you so you can:
A) Yell at people from the street corner?
B) believing hate filled things that would make those who hold "God Hates Fags" posters proud.
C) Pretend to never get horny and jerk off
D) Support bombing the shit out of brown people
E) Keep poor people from having an opportunity in life
F) Be part of a social club where you talk bad about people who aren't as "good" as you
G) Charge people 10% of their income to be part of the above social club
H) Good works as a matter of everyday behavior

All but one of the above is typical Christian behavior; the other one is supposed to be the Christian raison d'être.
 
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RandomWords

Senior member
Jun 11, 2014
633
5
81
All but one of the above is typical Christian behavior; the other one is supposed to be the Christian raison d'être.

Yes.. I like how people say that Christian behavior isn't Christian - they act terribly... true. They do this and that against their teachings; hypocrites the lot - yes again - like everyone on this planet... but shouldn't they be better since they are proclaiming themselves Christian? In theory... but in practice no. I don't get where this thinking comes from - since I'm Christian I have to be all great and good and kind and shit... that's not the case - though I know it is what the Church tries to impart and it sure is what everyone gets from it... it's not what I read. That I'm Christian I have to be held to a higher standard? No. My sins are equal to everyone else's. I can stray and come back; multiple times; and still be welcomed. I can have sex with someone else's wife and get her husband killed and still be considered among his favorites and well loved. I cannot walk the path of Christ - I'm sure he knows that - knows that being too kind all the time brings out an angry rage where I just want to cause pain... where this idea that you have to be perfect and the hatred for Christianity comes from when their people are not... I just don't get. That is the purpose of the bible... for the imperfect... not the perfect.

It's like the way my brother viewed me - as perfect - did nothing wrong... and each time I tell him I've done something wrong he looks at me with a little more dislike and a little less adoring love... it seems I HAVE to fit his profile - or be deemed less than I was. Which is how I think the majority of people are towards Christians - they HAVE to fit that exact profile people have of them and what they are expected to be... granted - some Christians can be that way towards other people - I guess it goes to show it doesn't matter if you have religion or not - people are dicks
 
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disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
Of course, if we do that, God goes from some kind of supernatural entity to simply being a life form like us, only far more advanced, perhaps as far beyond us as we are over cats, or even as we are over bacteria.
I've seen how we deal with bacteria. We're not usually concerned with the subtle interactions between individual microbes. We have no qualms about freezing or packaging certain microbes by the millions, thawing them and putting them into a paradise of an environment, and then putting the bread dough into the oven and slaughter them en masse.
(What are the main things that yeast produce? Alcohol and carbon dioxide. We've got a knack for that as well. :hmm

Bacteria, unlike human life does not have consciousness nor feelings.

What should really concern you, is how some humans treat other humans. but those are only the ones that don't know any better.

This is quite funny (I'm not sure why; it's also cute - maybe its the imagination of millions of bacteria screaming as they turn into deliciousness; maybe the thought of alcohol) - I love it. I do. It's absolutely beautiful - in the way poetry can be.

That's so cute! You have the hots for Jeff7! :twisted: He's mine! Stay away from him tramp!:twisted::twisted::twisted:

Just kidding

Have fun you 2!
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
Yes.. I like how people say that Christian behavior isn't Christian - they act terribly... true. They do this and that against their teachings; hypocrites the lot - yes again - like everyone on this planet... but shouldn't they be better since they are proclaiming themselves Christian? In theory... but in practice no. I don't get where this thinking comes from - since I'm Christian I have to be all great and good and kind and shit... that's not the case - though I know it is what the Church tries to impart and it sure is what everyone gets from it... it's not what I read. That I'm Christian I have to be held to a higher standard? No. My sins are equal to everyone else's. I can stray and come back; multiple times; and still be welcomed. I can have sex with someone else's wife and get her husband killed and still be considered among his favorites and well loved. I cannot walk the path of Christ - I'm sure he knows that - knows that being too kind all the time brings out an angry rage where I just want to cause pain... where this idea that you have to be perfect and the hatred for Christianity comes from when their people are not... I just don't get. That is the purpose of the bible... for the imperfect... not the perfect.

It's like the way my brother viewed me - as perfect - did nothing wrong... and each time I tell him I've done something wrong he looks at me with a little more dislike and a little less adoring love... it seems I HAVE to fit his profile - or be deemed less than I was. Which is how I think the majority of people are towards Christians - they HAVE to fit that exact profile people have of them and what they are expected to be... granted - some Christians can be that way towards other people - I guess it goes to show it doesn't matter if you have religion or not - people are dicks
Nope: being a better person is in no way required for salvation: though not doing all that other shit in the name of being a Christian would be nice.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,562
1,740
126
The Christians I met were all hypocrites. The people who are on the front lines helping out the needy are the ones I truly respect. Not some idiot who claims to serve God by only attending church on Sunday. Actions speak louder than words.
 

RandomWords

Senior member
Jun 11, 2014
633
5
81
Nope: being a better person is in no way required for salvation: though not doing all that other shit in the name of being a Christian would be nice.

I'm not sure what you are doing there - agreeing with something in which I wasn't referring? I wasn't talking about what was required for salvation - though you are correct - I was mainly just stating how people view Christians and wondering why people think just because they are Christians they don't get to be like other humans (who are mostly hypocrites despite their religion or non-religion)... mainly referring to things like the comment of:

The Christians I met were all hypocrites.

More accurately - the majority of people you meet are all hypocrites.

It just seems to me; that if you have a hypocritical non-religious person vs. a hypocritical Christian person - people will hate the Christian person with more fervor for some reason... as if they aren't exactly the same; but I digress off the subject... and must restrain myself from furthering this line of conversation.
 
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