When people say the power of prayer saves lives...

[ImpulsE69]

Wrong again. At least for me. I pray to ask for things where I need help in life and have asked for the forgiveness of my sins. I have sined a fucking life times worth! No more!

But I digress. If I tied you up and showed you a chain saw and said I'm gonna start with your arms and then your legs and chop you up into tiny pieces would you start praying?

Probably not, but I'd probably bawl and scream like a little baby.

 

[John Connor]

LOL!

 

[StrangerGuy]

If you are saved you thank god, if you aren't you thank god too.

Rationalization much? Besides, what moral capital does an omnipotent being has if he/she/it/them fails utterly when judged by mere human standards?

 

[Jeff7]

What?

Are you telling me that the power of Christ doesn't compel you people?

Now that you put it that way....I wonder if we could use the power of Christ for other things? This would be in much the same way as we could use Superman.

Edit: Someone's gone and figured out how to do it.

Regardless of my beliefs, what makes you think you're capable of judging me or God?


Epicurus was guilty of false reasoning. He seeks to judge God as we judge humans. He even tries to use a logical fallacy to do it.

What other frame of reference should we use?

Capable of judging God: This is alleged to be an entity with the power to drastically influence our lives. Why is it so wrong of us to say something like "Hey, this is bullshit! Stop screwing around with us!" All we've got are vague tales from an ancient book that is open to enormously-varying interpretations. Another understatement of the century: That holy book is lacking in detail.
This is a PIC chip, which sells for a few dollars. Its datasheet is 560 pages long. It's a nice little microcontroller with 40 pins, 35 of which are programmable I/Os. Not bad. Again, 560 pages on it, and that's just the thing on how to use it, not including the documents needed to instruct someone else on how to manufacture it.

The Bible is something more like a datasheet or guidebook for reality and everything. I'd expect it to be slightly more voluminous.
Scaled accordingly, that PIC chip's datasheet would say only this: "This thing is black." Determining the rest would be left as an exercise for the user.

I'd find a chip from a different manufacturer.



In addition, a "get out of judgement or critical evaluation free" card isn't valid for me.
- Won't willing stand up to scrutiny, or in some interpretations, even permit it.
- Interactions are random by our observation, and are thus unprovable.
- Anything regarded as an attempt at direct communication (miracles, holy texts, visions) are enormously open to interpretation and are never consistently repeatable. Some of these things are also readily explained through other means, such as the human brain's intense proclivity for hallucinating and inaccurate data retention.

 

[Retro Rob]

Just came across the Nina Pham article. Seems people are upset because she thanked God for saving her life, but in reality it was the medical staff, and science that saved her from an awful death. In reality, she would have died.

When people thank God, they aren't ignoring the science or the doctors. What they are doing is simply thanking God for creating humans with the ability to do good with science, so it's more indirectly. Some people think God motivated doctors to help, some think God put them in a position to be saved by science -- you be the judge.

Getting "upset" because someone thanked God? Let us know when you grow up.

 

[Paladin3]

I used to study with various religious people and have long discussions about God when I as a younger man. I came to the conclusion that people who attribute the power of prayer to healing or any other kind of benefit are basically saying God is a conceited asshat.

If he has the ability to save then he has to take responsibility for the evil that he allows the innocent to suffer as well. When you hear stories of a baby being microwaved to death by a crack-head mother, what, did the baby not pray enough for God to save it? Was its suffering no big deal because it will then live forever in a magic sky place?

The evil of man convinced me that God does not exist. If he does, and he has the power to alleviate the suffering of the innocent, but only if you pay him his props, then I want no part of him.

If Jesus comes back and is as represented in the Bible, love one another, etc., then I would fight on his side. If I found out he had the power all along to stop human suffering then I'd have some harsh questions for him. If he answered that we had to learn our lesson the hard way then fuck him.

If a parent treated their children that way we would put them in prison for it. Why is it acceptable for the supposedly loving, ultimate parent of mankind to do so?

 

[OverVolt]

I used to study with various religious people and have long discussions about God when I as a younger man. I came to the conclusion that people who attribute the power of prayer to healing or any other kind of benefit are basically saying God is a conceited asshat.

If he has the ability to save then he has to take responsibility for the evil that he allows the innocent to suffer as well. When you hear stories of a baby being microwaved to death by a crack-head mother, what, did the baby not pray enough for God to save it? Was its suffering no big deal because it will then live forever in a magic sky place?

The evil of man convinced me that God does not exist. If he does, and he has the power to alleviate the suffering of the innocent, but only if you pay him his props, then I want no part of him.

If Jesus comes back and is as represented in the Bible, love one another, etc., then I would fight on his side. If I found out he had the power all along to stop human suffering then I'd have some harsh questions for him. If he answered that we had to learn our lesson the hard way then fuck him.

Talk about missing the mark entirely. This is shit I was able to work out for myself when I was about 10. There will always be suffering in the world and god does not inflict it. Its part of life, there WILL be parts of life that are painful. No one makes it off the planet alive. Thats why we're supposed to help those in need and such.

 

[Paladin3]

Talk about missing the mark entirely. This is shit I was able to work out for myself when I was about 10. There will always be suffering in the world and god does not inflict it. Its part of life, there WILL be parts of life that are painful. No one makes it off the planet alive. Thats why we're supposed to help those in need and such.

What mark did I miss?

I never said God inflicted human suffering. I'm only pointing out that if he has the power to stop it and chooses not to (unless maybe you pray enough) then what good is he?

Every religions person I've asked this question of give me the same stupid "God works in mysterious ways" answer. Or just tells me I have to have faith.

EDIT: I studied, discussed and debated religion on and off over the years precisely because I could never find a good answer to my question: Why would any loving father allow his children to destroy each other if he can stop it? The best answer I ever got was because of free will. God doesn't want robots, and that whole apple thing was us being willful children rebelling against God's rightful rule. So, thus, we are in a short period of learning from our mistakes.

Bullshit, I spank my kids when absolutely necessary, especially to prevent them from hurting themselves or others. I'm not going to swallow that the whole of human suffering is insignificant when compared to the everlasting soul and paradise in the sky yet to come.

 

[HeavyD]

Just came across the Nina Pham article. Seems people are upset because she thanked God for saving her life, but in reality it was the medical staff, and science that saved her from an awful death. In reality, she would have died.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/nurse-cured-ebola-thanks-god-atheists-furious/

Just curious. Where was God when...

Pol Pot killed 1.5m Cambodians.
Hitler murdered 6m Jews
The Spanish Empire wiped out the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas
Stalin murdered 20-50m of his own people
America nearly wiped out the indigenous peoples of North America
Nearly 10 thousand people have died from Ebola this year alone

I could go on. The point I'm trying to make is if there is a God why didn't he/she do anything to save these poor people? Why is her life more important than 6m Jews? It just seems crazy when people like Ms. Pham makes those type of statements.

Yes, some Atheist are upset about people thanking god and not all of the people frantically trying to save ones life all in ones face but I see it as ignorance because I used to think the same way until I woke up. I'm not upset at her she's glad to be alive with or without a god.

 

[disappoint]

I believe the quote doesn't reflect the choice to believe as much as it does making a choice. Some surrender to God and, some surrender to nihilism.

The moral of the story is: Always surrender? Are you French by any chance?

 

[HeavyD]

https://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I know I should be dead. My providers said as much. The cardiac surgeon who performed the procedure told me after my first followup that I "should thank the man upstairs not me" because I was that badly off. I know many who have religious or spiritual beliefs and a lot of prayer was offered. Can I say that made the difference? Well maybe it did. I can't prove it one way or the other. What I do know is that all the science and medicine there is should not have saved me, yet I live. I'm not going to disrespect those who prayed in my behalf.

 

[Fritzo]

You know, if it makes someone feel better to believe in a higher power, just let them do it. How does it hurt you in any way?

 

[lxskllr]

How does it hurt you in any way?

They try to enforce it on everyone else through policy and law. That affects everyone, especially when science is retarded.

 

[Fritzo]

They try to enforce it on everyone else through policy and law. That affects everyone, especially when science is retarded.

Do they really? Or do a select few do that and therefore everyone that believes in God gets lambasted for it?

 

[Ventanni]

I used to study with various religious people and have long discussions about God when I as a younger man. I came to the conclusion that people who attribute the power of prayer to healing or any other kind of benefit are basically saying God is a conceited asshat.

If he has the ability to save then he has to take responsibility for the evil that he allows the innocent to suffer as well. When you hear stories of a baby being microwaved to death by a crack-head mother, what, did the baby not pray enough for God to save it? Was its suffering no big deal because it will then live forever in a magic sky place?

The evil of man convinced me that God does not exist. If he does, and he has the power to alleviate the suffering of the innocent, but only if you pay him his props, then I want no part of him.

If Jesus comes back and is as represented in the Bible, love one another, etc., then I would fight on his side. If I found out he had the power all along to stop human suffering then I'd have some harsh questions for him. If he answered that we had to learn our lesson the hard way then fuck him.

If a parent treated their children that way we would put them in prison for it. Why is it acceptable for the supposedly loving, ultimate parent of mankind to do so?

Why are we so angry at God for man's decisions? Because man chooses to raise the sword and do despicable things to one another that suddenly it's now God's fault? James 4:2 (NAS) describes it best when he sums up the reasons as to why man does terrible things to one another, "You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask."

A lot of individuals, especially on this message board, are very confused when it comes to understanding God's will. Not that I blame them or fault you guys for it; hardly any of you read the Bible. I wouldn't intimately know Nathaniel Hawthorne's work unless I read it, and the same goes for God's word. So I'll break it down so it's much easier to understand.

God's Will - That His creations honor and worship Him and choose to love Him (that's the key part) in the way he deserves. Before anyone balks and considers that a highly conceited standpoint, understand that God is not malevolent. He is perfect in every way, more powerful than you can possibly imagine, and loves you more than you can even begin to fathom. He wants only what's best for you, and knows exactly how to orchestrate that. He loves you so much, in fact, that he sacrificed His only son so that you would have the opportunity to be with Him. How many of you guys would do that?

Nothing you can do will stop God's Will from happening. No matter what Satan does, or what man does, God's Will will continue to carry on. The key here is that you can either choose to be apart of that, or you don't. God still loves you even if you choose not to be a part of that.

Moving on...

God's Will For Man - Wait, what? Didn't we just discuss God's Will? You mean God has a will for man that's separate from the divine decree? Yes, and this is where we, as humans, consistently fall short. God's will for man, however, is fairly simple. It is:

1. To be saved.
2. To live a sanctified life.
3. To allow the Holy Spirit to live through us.
4. To love and be giving.
5. To suffer. This is a misunderstood part. God doesn't intentionally cause malevolent suffering upon you, but he will use the opportunity of the hardships you experience to bring you closer to Him.

It is only by living a life in accordance to God's will for us that we truly experience the true blessings and joys of what the Lord has to offer. I'm also a firm believer that when we live a life in accordance to God's will that you don't get the horrors of what the world has to offer: Mass extermination, microwaved babies, endless poverty, etc.

The unfortunate reality is though is that we chose to introduce sin into our world, and the horrors that you see around you are a result of just that. God very explicitly warned us exactly what would happen as a result, and you can read it for yourselves in Genesis 3:14-19. But he gave us a way out. We don't have to live a life controlled by our sin. His Word is there. His blessings upon you are ready for taking. You just have to choose to accept it.

So instead, consider this alternate viewpoint: Many ask where God was when Hitler decided to slaughter 35 million people. Where was God when the Tutsis were being slaughtered? And ISIS? How can God allow that? I challenge you to think from the other perspective. Where was Hitler when God was trying to tell him, "There's a better way." Was Hitler listening? Where was Pol Pot when the Bible was right in front of him? Was he purposefully ignoring Him? And ISIS? God doesn't allow that. That's not His way, and the individuals who choose to be a part of that organization will be judged accordingly unless they turn from their ways.

So in closing, please don't be angry with God because of poor decisions mankind has chosen to make. Don't blame Him for that. You don't blame you boss or your best friend because your wife decided to leave you. All around the world, people will disappoint you. God, however, will not, and if you choose to be a part of His ways, I guarantee you that it will be the best decision you've ever made.

It was mine.

 

[Ns1]

Where's pray to yeezus when you need him

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The moral of the story is: Always surrender? Are you French by any chance?

https://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes

When the odds against you insurmountable and, you know without a shadow of a doubt your death is imminent, EVERYONE surrenders to that knowledge. If you're granted the time, you may decide to go out with a look of defiance rather than fear but, neither affects your acceptance of your death. The only ones who escape that knowledge are the few who lose connection with reality and take refuge in the dark corners of a broken mind.

J. Anderson Thompson, JR. sounds like someone desperately trying to rationalize his fear that believers may experience a peace of mind he is incapable of.

 

[Paladin3]

Why are we so angry at God for man's decisions? Because man chooses to raise the sword and do despicable things to one another that suddenly it's now God's fault? James 4:2 (NAS) describes it best when he sums up the reasons as to why man does terrible things to one another, "You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask."

A lot of individuals, especially on this message board, are very confused when it comes to understanding God's will. Not that I blame them or fault you guys for it; hardly any of you read the Bible. I wouldn't intimately know Nathaniel Hawthorne's work unless I read it, and the same goes for God's word. So I'll break it down so it's much easier to understand.

God's Will - That His creations honor and worship Him and choose to love Him (that's the key part) in the way he deserves. Before anyone balks and considers that a highly conceited standpoint, understand that God is not malevolent. He is perfect in every way, more powerful than you can possibly imagine, and loves you more than you can even begin to fathom. He wants only what's best for you, and knows exactly how to orchestrate that. He loves you so much, in fact, that he sacrificed His only son so that you would have the opportunity to be with Him. How many of you guys would do that?

Nothing you can do will stop God's Will from happening. No matter what Satan does, or what man does, God's Will will continue to carry on. The key here is that you can either choose to be apart of that, or you don't. God still loves you even if you choose not to be a part of that.

Moving on...

God's Will For Man - Wait, what? Didn't we just discuss God's Will? You mean God has a will for man that's separate from the divine decree? Yes, and this is where we, as humans, consistently fall short. God's will for man, however, is fairly simple. It is:

1. To be saved.
2. To live a sanctified life.
3. To allow the Holy Spirit to live through us.
4. To love and be giving.
5. To suffer. This is a misunderstood part. God doesn't intentionally cause malevolent suffering upon you, but he will use the opportunity of the hardships you experience to bring you closer to Him.

It is only by living a life in accordance to God's will for us that we truly experience the true blessings and joys of what the Lord has to offer. I'm also a firm believer that when we live a life in accordance to God's will that you don't get the horrors of what the world has to offer: Mass extermination, microwaved babies, endless poverty, etc.

The unfortunate reality is though is that we chose to introduce sin into our world, and the horrors that you see around you are a result of just that. God very explicitly warned us exactly what would happen as a result, and you can read it for yourselves in Genesis 3:14-19. But he gave us a way out. We don't have to live a life controlled by our sin. His Word is there. His blessings upon you are ready for taking. You just have to choose to accept it.

So instead, consider this alternate viewpoint: Many ask where God was when Hitler decided to slaughter 35 million people. Where was God when the Tutsis were being slaughtered? And ISIS? How can God allow that? I challenge you to think from the other perspective. Where was Hitler when God was trying to tell him, "There's a better way." Was Hitler listening? Where was Pol Pot when the Bible was right in front of him? Was he purposefully ignoring Him? And ISIS? God doesn't allow that. That's not His way, and the individuals who choose to be a part of that organization will be judged accordingly unless they turn from their ways.

So in closing, please don't be angry with God because of poor decisions mankind has chosen to make. Don't blame Him for that. You don't blame you boss or your best friend because your wife decided to leave you. All around the world, people will disappoint you. God, however, will not, and if you choose to be a part of His ways, I guarantee you that it will be the best decision you've ever made.

It was mine.

Obviously you've never spoken with someone who was in a Nazi death camp. God can fall back on "that wasn't my idea", but if he had the power to stop it and did nothing so we could learn to love him better, well, that's pretty messed up.

People will disappoint. A loving, all-powerful father should do a little better. If he can't or won't, then I am left believing he doesn't even exist.

The only way your argument works is if we consider this life just a willful adolescent period for mankind, and God is allowing us to do as we choose and fail to learn a lesson. That's a damn big pill to swallow considering there is no proof of any afterlife whatsoever. I'm not drinking that Kool-aid just yet.

 

[alzan]

When people thank God, they aren't ignoring the science or the doctors. What they are doing is simply thanking God for creating humans with the ability to do good with science, so it's more indirectly. Some people think God motivated doctors to help, some think God put them in a position to be saved by science -- you be the judge.

Getting "upset" because someone thanked God? Let us know when you grow up.

That's your perception of what people are doing when they thank G-d. Other people would have a different perception, usually based on their own frame of reference and/or belief system or lack thereof. Some would have no frame of reference.

You see the OP as being "upset" and immature; is that possibly due to your own frame of reference and belief system?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Obviously you've never spoken with someone who was in a Nazi death camp. God can fall back on "that wasn't my idea", but if he had the power to stop it and did nothing so we could learn to love him better, well, that's pretty messed up.So, free will should only exist when it's not used for something really bad? Who decides?

People will disappoint. A loving, all-powerful father should do a little better. If he can't or won't, then I am left believing he doesn't even exist. God forgives us our sins if, we ask. You want God to be all powerful but, take your direction on how to do it?

The only way your argument works is if we consider this life just a willful adolescent period for mankind, and God is allowing us to do as we choose and fail to learn a lesson. That's a damn big pill to swallow considering there is no proof of any afterlife whatsoever. I'm not drinking that Kool-aid just yet.

See above in Red.
Belief IS a choice. So, you're hoping there's still going to be time to change your mind if, it's proven to you in a way you can accept? What's the difference in the end result do you think between betting against God and refusing to place a bet?

 

[amdhunter]

God gave her Ebola in the first place.

 

[Jaskalas]

Just came across the Nina Pham article. Seems people are upset because she thanked God for saving her life, but in reality it was the medical staff, and science that saved her from an awful death. In reality, she would have died.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/nurse-cured-ebola-thanks-god-atheists-furious/

As a nurse who treated Mr. Duncan, she probably knows better than most - that her chances of survival were not favorable. People tend to be humbled when facing near death experiences. Particularly long and drawn out ones. This will lead the religious to thanking god.

What the haters need to realize is that her thanking god is not exclusive. But they'd rather hate her than wish her well. Says a lot about them.

Just curious. Where was God when...

Playing devil's advocate.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Why are we so angry at God for man's decisions? Because man chooses to raise the sword and do despicable things to one another that suddenly it's now God's fault? James 4:2 (NAS) describes it best when he sums up the reasons as to why man does terrible things to one another, "You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask."

A lot of individuals, especially on this message board, are very confused when it comes to understanding God's will. Not that I blame them or fault you guys for it; hardly any of you read the Bible. I wouldn't intimately know Nathaniel Hawthorne's work unless I read it, and the same goes for God's word. So I'll break it down so it's much easier to understand.

God's Will - That His creations honor and worship Him and choose to love Him (that's the key part) in the way he deserves. Before anyone balks and considers that a highly conceited standpoint, understand that God is not malevolent. He is perfect in every way, more powerful than you can possibly imagine, and loves you more than you can even begin to fathom. He wants only what's best for you, and knows exactly how to orchestrate that. He loves you so much, in fact, that he sacrificed His only son so that you would have the opportunity to be with Him. How many of you guys would do that?

Nothing you can do will stop God's Will from happening. No matter what Satan does, or what man does, God's Will will continue to carry on. The key here is that you can either choose to be apart of that, or you don't. God still loves you even if you choose not to be a part of that.

Moving on...

God's Will For Man - Wait, what? Didn't we just discuss God's Will? You mean God has a will for man that's separate from the divine decree? Yes, and this is where we, as humans, consistently fall short. God's will for man, however, is fairly simple. It is:

1. To be saved.
2. To live a sanctified life.
3. To allow the Holy Spirit to live through us.
4. To love and be giving.
5. To suffer. This is a misunderstood part. God doesn't intentionally cause malevolent suffering upon you, but he will use the opportunity of the hardships you experience to bring you closer to Him.

It is only by living a life in accordance to God's will for us that we truly experience the true blessings and joys of what the Lord has to offer. I'm also a firm believer that when we live a life in accordance to God's will that you don't get the horrors of what the world has to offer: Mass extermination, microwaved babies, endless poverty, etc.

The unfortunate reality is though is that we chose to introduce sin into our world, and the horrors that you see around you are a result of just that. God very explicitly warned us exactly what would happen as a result, and you can read it for yourselves in Genesis 3:14-19. But he gave us a way out. We don't have to live a life controlled by our sin. His Word is there. His blessings upon you are ready for taking. You just have to choose to accept it.

So instead, consider this alternate viewpoint: Many ask where God was when Hitler decided to slaughter 35 million people. Where was God when the Tutsis were being slaughtered? And ISIS? How can God allow that? I challenge you to think from the other perspective. Where was Hitler when God was trying to tell him, "There's a better way." Was Hitler listening? Where was Pol Pot when the Bible was right in front of him? Was he purposefully ignoring Him? And ISIS? God doesn't allow that. That's not His way, and the individuals who choose to be a part of that organization will be judged accordingly unless they turn from their ways.

So in closing, please don't be angry with God because of poor decisions mankind has chosen to make. Don't blame Him for that. You don't blame you boss or your best friend because your wife decided to leave you. All around the world, people will disappoint you. God, however, will not, and if you choose to be a part of His ways, I guarantee you that it will be the best decision you've ever made.

It was mine.

This would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that you actually believe all that nonsense.

 

[Paul98]

God and prayer are things made up to give those who can separate what they believe from reality comfort.

Don't want to die, make up an afterlife. Don't have a good life, make the afterlife great so that when you get there you can have what ever you want.

Want help you can't help with, pray for it.

Don't like people doing terrible things, make a hell that these people will go to.