Where are all these diesels?

[DVad3r]

So where are all these diesels that were the buzz of last year? Diesels in Mazda's, diesel in 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee, etc.

I'm looking at a car like the new Ford Escape and it has extremely terrible fuel economy for a car of it's size. In a diesel it would be getting like 35 MPG.

Why don't they bring more diesels into the North American market again, someone remind me please?

 

[NutBucket]

Because hybrids are still the "in" thing. I admit I have a hybrid but how many subcompact diesels are for sale in NA?

I definitely wish our SUV had a diesel option but even there you're extremely limited.

 

[DVad3r]

Because hybrids are still the "in" thing. I admit I have a hybrid but how many subcompact diesels are for sale in NA?

I definitely wish our SUV had a diesel option but even there you're extremely limited.

Diesel option in SUV means you have to dish out 70 grand for a German car.

 

[NutBucket]

Exactly. No thanks. $30k plus the privilege of paying Hans and Claus to maintain/repair my car goes a LONG way towards my gas bill

 

[mmntech]

I'm still waiting for LNG vehicles so we can say f--- it to oil all together.

 

[ViviTheMage]

If I recall, even with comparable diesel engines, you only save 3-4 MPG ... and generally price is 20% more.

That's because of our emission standards.

 

[phucheneh]

Diesels don't sell in this country, according to every manufacturer except VW.

I guess we're still suffering from the well-known abortions GM tried to put in 80's cars.

 

[skyking]

It is all about tightened emission standards in the US. The rest of the world can use cheaper, easier to build engine systems because of this.

 

[NutBucket]

Bullshit. Its not that regulations in Europe are any looser; they're just different. Here in the US they're skewed against diesel hence the need for piss injection in diesel exhaust.

Besides, many countries base tax partially on CO2 emissions.

But yes, GM's "efforts" during the 80's definitely didn't help things.

 

[DVad3r]

But I thought modern diesels emit less?

 

[NutBucket]

Its not an apples to apples comparison regarding emissions. There's various byproducts that differ between the two fuels.

 

[LTC8K6]

The new Diesel GC will be out in 1Q2013 as a 2014 model along with the rest of the 2014 lineup, iirc.

It was never scheduled to appear before then.

2013 is a very short MY for the GC. The 8 speed transmissions are coming also with the 2014 models in the 1Q of 2013.

Besides, we already had a Diesel GC in 2007-08.5

http://www.wk2jeeps.com/wk2_2014_features.htm

 

[AMCRambler]

So where are all these diesels that were the buzz of last year? Diesels in Mazda's, diesel in 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee, etc.

I'm looking at a car like the new Ford Escape and it has extremely terrible fuel economy for a car of it's size. In a diesel it would be getting like 35 MPG.

Why don't they bring more diesels into the North American market again, someone remind me please?

Have you looked at the price of diesel gas lately? You might as well be putting in premium. Any savings from the gas mileage gets wiped out by the cost of diesel gas so they probably wouldn't sell well.

 

[NutBucket]

Studies like this don't help diesel's reputation either:

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-diesel-pollution-20121022,0,7643604.story

Consider most of the diesel emissions in CA are from 18 wheelers...not exactly a segment that prioritizes clean emissions tech.

 

[DVad3r]

Have you looked at the price of diesel gas lately? You might as well be putting in premium. Any savings from the gas mileage gets wiped out by the cost of diesel gas so they probably wouldn't sell well.

Diesel here in Canada is cheaper than 87 gasoline, at least for now.

 

[LTC8K6]

Current prices in my town:

87 3.33
89 3.48
93 3.63
Diesel 3.74

 

[Auric]

Have you looked at the price of diesel gas lately? You might as well be putting in premium. Any savings from the gas mileage gets wiped out by the cost of diesel gas so they probably wouldn't sell well.

In that case it's a wash while the engine cost premium is balanced by longevity and superior drivability due to higher torque for equivalent displacement. As a bonus, it can use biodiesel (i.e. can be homemade at low cost) or with modification just about any oil including waste.

 

[phucheneh]

I'm sure I'm a broken record, but our fuel costs/emissions/oil dependence would be a hell of a lot better if people would a) sell diesels here and b) invest in real biodiesel R&D and infrastructure. Read: ALGAE, bitches.

All I see are papers and student projects and stuff...what is the reason no one is heavily pursuing development of this instead of worthless corn-derived ethanol again? Okay, maybe not worthless, but not energy efficient to produce...and if it's not energy efficient to produce...an energy source...why the hell would any reasonable person do it?

edit: wikilink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

I already knew it wasn't cheap enough to produce, but that's not going to change without some investment...also economically nonviable is better than scientifically nonviable...

 

[phucheneh]

Also, this is a good read:

http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2006/04/08/energy-balance-for-ethanol-better-than-for-gasoline/

If anyone can fault the reasoning/data, that's fine. It seems sound to me, though...claims that gasoline has a net loss of energy are pretty absurd. I also can't see how a crop that only needs sunlight, CO2, and water (no soil, no fertilizer), can be grown more densely, and harvested more easily, is more inefficent than ethanol. Why does it (supposedly) require so much more energy to process algae, again? I mean, that would have to be where the cost is at.

After the not-so-simple planting, growing, and harvesting , corn still has to be refined into 'crude' ethanol and then distilled. I'm just thinking out loud, but it seems mind-boggling that simply extracting the lipids from algae and then going through a typical biodiesel production process is so hard to make energy efficient.

If I'm being retarded, it's totally cool for someone to tell me...just try and explain why this little tangent is unfounded. Would rather have my intuition be confirmed wrong than just not know.

 

[Doppel]

So where are all these diesels that were the buzz of last year? Diesels in Mazda's, diesel in 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee, etc.

I'm looking at a car like the new Ford Escape and it has extremely terrible fuel economy for a car of it's size. In a diesel it would be getting like 35 MPG.

Why don't they bring more diesels into the North American market again, someone remind me please?

These things never come to fruition, just wet dreams of people on auto blogs without any real market reason to bring them to North America.

Since we are not gouged on fuel prices like in much of the world there's just no financial reason to bring a diesel here (not including whatever minimal options exist) when there are so many hybrid options.

 

[phucheneh]

If you're going to build a car to recapture wasted energy, why not pair it with the most thermally efficient engine, though? You get the same amount of energy from 'regenerative braking' either way.

Also whatever happened to steam turbines? I remember BMW made a 'turbosteamer' concept a few years ago.

It seems like the wasted energy that needs to be captured is in the heat generated by the ICE (heh), not in the actual energy produced by a <30% efficient engine.

Seems like I've read that the most efficient setup would actually be a gas turbine, since the heat can be captured relatively easily to power a secondary steam turbine. Or maybe a liquid-cooled reciprocating engine's cooling system could be used; the gas/diesel engine would just have to run hotter...not feasible?

I wish I had the resources to invent stuff. And/or blow myself up. =(

 

[jagec]

It seems like the wasted energy that needs to be captured is in the heat generated by the ICE (heh), not in the actual energy produced by a <30% efficient engine.

The temperature differential between your heat source and your heat sink defines your efficiency limit. You simply can't efficiently recover useful work from a small heat differential. It is only good for process heat and pre-heating.

 

[Rezist]

Diesels in the colder parts of Canada still fail regularly. Also biodiesel would gel so bad at 10k a pop for a new fuel pump and injectors (V8 trucks) would probably eat heavily into any gains.

 

[suse920]

If I recall, even with comparable diesel engines, you only save 3-4 MPG ... and generally price is 20% more.

That's because of our emission standards.

Based off the VW passat models the diesel version gets you around 8mpg higher on the highway at around a $3,000 price premium.

Owners have been reporting higher than epa mileage numbers, but you'd still have to drive a lot of miles to make up that cost.

Diesel fuel is also the same price as premium gasoline where I am, further decreasing any fuel savings.

One thing to consider is the resale value. Diesel models tend to hold their value much better than their gasoline chugging counterparts (at least for vw)


After the cost of urea and any extra maintenance, getting 45mpg on the highway doesn't seem as impressive.


*diesel owner*

 

[hans007]

Current prices in my town:

87 3.33
89 3.48
93 3.63
Diesel 3.74

Diesel in ca tends to be the price of mid grade. But with ca recent refining problems its less than 87


Problem with diesels in america is drivetrain certification plus they do cost more to build. They need engined that are stronger to withstand the compression injection then stronger transmissions for the torque. Then particulate filters and things like urea injection systems. Then there is the negative perception which is stupid. Plus not every station has diesel pumps.
So basically they cost nearly as much as hybrids but aren't as easy to market and sell.

Lastly the engines are not as fast in 0-60 etc as normal cars. Case in point. The 2011 335d is slower to 60 than the latest 328i and was barely quicker than the old 328i. Yes it'll feel faster but most people are going to see that its not any faster and more expensive.