Where does the Netanyuhu claim of defenseable borders go?

[Lemon law]

What a bunch of demonizing the Mulims, there are many countries smaller than Israel that live in peace and security.

The secret of their success is simple, they fairly treat their citizens and don't go around trying to antagonize their neighbors.

 

[Craig234]

What a bunch of demonizing the Mulims, there are many countries smaller than Israel that live in peace and security.

The secret of their success is simple, they fairly treat their citizens and don't go around trying to antagonize their neighbors.

To be fair, Israel faces more of a threat from its neighbors that most countries.

But they also play games with the issue to their benefit to a large extent IMO.

The reason we hear so much about 'defensible borders' is simple because it sounds good as a justification, much better than more selfish reasons.

That's why bigots against gay marriage don't say they're pro-discrimination, they say they're for the 'defense of marriage'.

Just sounds so much better. You don't want to attack their marriages, right?

 

[EagleKeeper]

What a bunch of demonizing the Mulims, there are many countries smaller than Israel that live in peace and security.

The secret of their success is simple, they fairly treat their citizens and don't go around trying to antagonize their neighbors.

What about how their neighbors treat them?

The pendulum swings both ways.

You still have direct neighbors in a declared state of war.
You have neighbors that attack via proxy.
You have nearby states that are still in a declared state of war.
You have a pseudo government that continues to launch attacks against you cities.

Israel treats it citizens fairly - much more than some of the Arab/Muslim countries around it.

When was the last uprising by Arab citizens of Israel? do you see the IDF shooting into demonstrations by Israeli Arabs and or Jews.

Unlike Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Yemem, etc.

 

[Nebor]

Excellent video. Explains it well.

Love this comment.. Can't fool those soldiers who come face to face with PC "mom and dads just like us" sunshine blown up their asses.

"I served in Desert Storm. When the Enduring Freedom War broke out, I re-enlisted. I served 3 tours in Iraq and 1 tour in Afghanistan. You really don't understand these people until you get up close and personal with them. These people don't know what peace is. These people, even after peace, will continue to fight and murder each other. These people put a new meaning to the word "extreme". They would rather kill their own children then give in to peace.

Uh, Lemon Law knows WAY more about the people of the middle east and the military situations there than those of us that have actually been there. Duh.

 

[Nebor]

What a bunch of demonizing the Mulims, there are many countries smaller than Israel that live in peace and security.

The secret of their success is simple, they fairly treat their citizens and don't go around trying to antagonize their neighbors.

Muslims demonized themselves through their actions and words. Now it's time to live (or not) with the consequences.

 

[Zebo]

Seems that you filled this void thanks to zionist organisations
such as AIPAC....

Now you re fully qualified to have fruitfull exchange with white
supremacists that hide their racism behind hollow principles..

Zebo fully fits the description, no wonder that you re mutually
"educating" yourselves successfully..

Heh I for one am not interested in keeping white jihadists here and deporting only brown jihadists. That would be racism! I say get them all out.

Yes I freely admit I'm bigoted against a murderous ideology of supremacism and oppression.

As a general rule, I don't like group think either, or books that claim to offer total regulation of life and explanation of the universe so you have that going against you too.

( cliffs - Islam is not a race but a "religion" that is practiced by people of many races so it can't be racism.)

 

[Zebo]

What a bunch of demonizing the Mulims, there are many countries smaller than Israel that live in peace and security.

The secret of their success is simple, they fairly treat their citizens and don't go around trying to antagonize their neighbors.

Why should they have them? They are living on 1/800th the land sized by Arabs though conquest. Lands which a much larger portion was Jews. Lands who after truly "occupied" deny every non-Muslim - Berbers, Kurds, Maronites, Copts, Sudanese blacks the right to self-determination, cultural rights, and give them second class status. That's something to look forward to if you're an idiot. Jews hopefully arnt that stupid.

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy is both right and vastly wrong at the same time when he says, "Israel treats it citizens fairly - much more than some of the Arab/Muslim countries around it."

Not when we consider the 3 million Palestinians Israel holds within its borders with no human rights. Fully 30% of the Israel population.

But wait, they are not citizens even if they are original residents robbed of their lands by Israeli. Oh well, isn't denying citizenship a part of discrimination and denial of human rights?

 

[Nebor]

Common Courtesy is both right and vastly wrong at the same time when he says, "Israel treats it citizens fairly - much more than some of the Arab/Muslim countries around it."

Not when we consider the 3 million Palestinians Israel holds within its borders with no human rights. Fully 30% of the Israel population.

But wait, they are not citizens even if they are original residents robbed of their lands by Israeli. Oh well, isn't denying citizenship a part of discrimination and denial of human rights?

Human rights is a sham designed to transfer power from one group of people to another by manipulating the firsts' systems and guilt. Fuck 'em.

 

[Lemon law]

Human rights is a sham designed to transfer power from one group of people to another by manipulating the firsts' systems and guilt. Fuck 'em.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its been working fine for Israel for 63 years plus.

But time for Israel may be rapidly running out.

 

[Tom]

by that logic, were we not a democracy until the 1960s and the civil rights movement?

What do you mean, by that logic ? When women weren't allowed to vote, we weren't a democracy as far as women were concerned, were we ?

But our democracy worked to change that.

 

[Fern]

There's a difference between Jews and Israel, something that Zionists always attempt to obfuscate when the argument gets tough. Opposing the policies of the state of Israel and being anti-semitic are *not* the same thing, no matter how often that tired old lie gets trotted out.

Unless, of course, you're willing to say that non-jewish Israeli citizens aren't really Israelis at all... that the idea of Israel as a democratic secular state is just a deliberate illusion...

Can't have it both ways.

I agree with you, but wanted to note how odd I find it that Des/Libs/progressives can hold this opinion yet claim that anyone opposed to Obama's must be a racist.

Talk about having it both ways.

Fern

 

[Fern]

-snip-
My research on water stats is that inside the West Bank, Israeli settler are allocated almost infinite water, while Palestinians, because they cannot get Israeli controlled water drilling permits, get almost no water. Leaving Israeli settlers some 300 liters/day per person while Palestinians, get an average of 20-40 liters a day. Well under the WHO recommendation of 100 liters per person minimum. Or to put it another way, some 300,000 West Bank Israeli settlers get 80% of available water while 1.5 million Pales get only 20%.

Which may be why the settler issue may become irrelevant, because a Palestinian government in the West Bank would then control the West Bank water. Because even if such a Palestinian government allocates water fairly, Israeli settlers will get far far far less water than they are used to.

And in a desert like the land of Israel, water is always the delimiting resource.

I've often wondered (and posted about it) why we (the USA and rest of the world) don't focus our efforts on improving the infrastructure of the Palestinians. We could train them and employ them in improving their water, sewer and utilities etc.

People in decent living conditions and employed generally don't run around firing rockets at others.

Only after their environment was improved would I even bother with the solution to their state and borders.

Fern

 

[Tom]

I agree with you, but wanted to note how odd I find it that Des/Libs/progressives can hold this opinion yet claim that anyone opposed to Obama's must be a racist.

Talk about having it both ways.

Fern

I dont think that. All the Democrats in the Senate and most in the House that I've heard don't think that. And Obama doesn't think that.

But some people who oppose Obama are racist. And some just hate Democrats.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I don't see how this is controversial. Native Americans have citizenship in the USA, even though we stole their land to form our country

the arabs inside israels borders have citizenship, the ones outside do not. whats the problem here?

do you want mexicans to have US citizenship because they used to have texas and their great great grandparents lived on the land?

 

[Freshgeardude]

What do you mean, by that logic ? When women weren't allowed to vote, we weren't a democracy as far as women were concerned, were we ?

But our democracy worked to change that.

African americans didnt have full equal rights until the civil rights movement.

you stated a democracy is only so once there is equality without discrimination of race, religion, or sex.

so, by your logic, were we not a democracy until the 1960s?


Israel granted full equal rights to all of its citizens before the united states did (1948 vs 1960s)

 

[EagleKeeper]

Common Courtesy is both right and vastly wrong at the same time when he says, "Israel treats it citizens fairly - much more than some of the Arab/Muslim countries around it."

Not when we consider the 3 million Palestinians Israel holds within its borders with no human rights. Fully 30% of the Israel population.

But wait, they are not citizens even if they are original residents robbed of their lands by Israeli. Oh well, isn't denying citizenship a part of discrimination and denial of human rights?

Are they within the borders of Israel or not?
If you are accepting that the borders of Israel encompass all the territory that was ceded to them by their opponents; then that is true.

But you also claim that Israel has no claim on that territory.

You can not have your cake and eat it also.

Which is it?

 

[EagleKeeper]

I've often wondered (and posted about it) why we (the USA and rest of the world) don't focus our efforts on improving the infrastructure of the Palestinians. We could train them and employ them in improving their water, sewer and utilities etc.

People in decent living conditions and employed generally don't run around firing rockets at others.

Only after their environment was improved would I even bother with the solution to their state and borders.

Fern

Then why are there problems on the northern border?

It is the attitude that there should be no Israel, not the living conditions.
Those are excuses to cover up their own mistakes and to excuse what the ARABS did to them over the years to get them to such a position.

 

[woolfe9999]

There's a difference between Jews and Israel, something that Zionists always attempt to obfuscate when the argument gets tough. Opposing the policies of the state of Israel and being anti-semitic are *not* the same thing, no matter how often that tired old lie gets trotted out.

Unless, of course, you're willing to say that non-jewish Israeli citizens aren't really Israelis at all... that the idea of Israel as a democratic secular state is just a deliberate illusion...

Can't have it both ways.

It's only a tired old lie if the formulation is that anti-zionism = anti-semitism. However, that is largely a straw man. In the real world, at least some of the people who oppose Israel do so out of anti-semitism. There's an eerie parellel with the American right and its stance on illegal immigration. Many on the left think it is because of racism, to which the right responds that they're playing the "race card." After all, they're not lacing their comments with expressions like "beautiful ray of sunshine" so who can say whether they're motivated by racism or not. They all say they aren't. But some of them probably are anyway, right? Yet on and on it goes, someone is always playing "the race card" or the "anti-semitism card." The players just switch sides depending on the issue.

- wolf

 

[Lemon law]

Are they within the borders of Israel or not?
If you are accepting that the borders of Israel encompass all the territory that was ceded to them by their opponents; then that is true.

But you also claim that Israel has no claim on that territory.

You can not have your cake and eat it also.

Which is it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That Common Courtesy is exactly the current Palestinian State question before the UN.

As Israel claims those disputed lands are vital to any Israeli future, while ignoring the fact that from a fairness question, those lands are even more vital to Palestinians. My position has always been clear, those lands have to be given to the Palestinians. And in addition, Israel should not be rewarded by settling on disputed lands so settlement blocks are illegitimate for Israel to claim.

Truth be told, its only Bozo Netanyuhu who wants his cake and to get to eat it too. So its just an Israeli problem when the bulk of the world no longer buys Israeli bullshit after 44 years. As the run up to 9/2011 get closer and closer.

But in our mutual pissing contest, only final events by the larger world will be the final decider on a Palestinian State. As the Netanyuhu ability to stall and stall and settle and settle is by in large going over like a lead balloon in the larger world.

 

[Lemon law]

Then why are there problems on the northern border?

It is the attitude that there should be no Israel, not the living conditions.
Those are excuses to cover up their own mistakes and to excuse what the ARABS did to them over the years to get them to such a position.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes there are problems on Israeli borders. The Israeli military occupation of Lebanon is what led to the rise of Hezbollah. Syria likewise hates Israeli for its occupation of the Golan heights.
Even if I and many others think the Assad dictatorship has to go, any more democratic Syrian Government that replaces Assad, will still be hostile to Israel.

In short CC, the giant Israeli problem is that its done nothing to make any local mid-east friends. And instead has relied on it military hegemony to permit Israel to be nothing but a regional bully.

 

[lupi]

hope his hammies don't hurt from that backpedaling.


Yesterday, the president spoke before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Washington's most powerful pro-Israel lobbying group, in an effort at damage control. He reiterated that peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians should begin with the pre-1967 borders, but only as a starting point. Land swaps could eventually be part of the plan in order to be fair to both sides.

 

[Fern]

To me it seems quite absurd, that what ever happens in any future Israeli peace plan there is zero hope that Israel will ever ever have secure borders.
-snip-

As is often the case, your syntax and grammer make it difficult, if not impossible, for me to be sure of your intended meaning.

If you're saying that Israel cannot depend upon it's neighbors to secure the borders, i.e. prevent rocket attacks and the like from their side, I agree. However, that also seems to me the exact reason why Israel cannot accept the pre-1967 borders.

Fern

 

[Jhhnn]

hope his hammies don't hurt from that backpedaling.


Yesterday, the president spoke before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Washington's most powerful pro-Israel lobbying group, in an effort at damage control. He reiterated that peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians should begin with the pre-1967 borders, but only as a starting point. Land swaps could eventually be part of the plan in order to be fair to both sides.

That's what he said in the first place, which his political opponents attempted to obfuscate.

 

[Craig234]

I've often wondered (and posted about it) why we (the USA and rest of the world) don't focus our efforts on improving the infrastructure of the Palestinians. We could train them and employ them in improving their water, sewer and utilities etc.

People in decent living conditions and employed generally don't run around firing rockets at others.

Only after their environment was improved would I even bother with the solution to their state and borders.

Fern

Consider that poverty, while breeding anger, is a weapon, a crowd control.