Where have our Conservative members gone?

[fskimospy]

Well, the short of it, as I believe I've gathered, is that our current system is helplessly expensive and wasteful. Therefore he sees no hope in merely changing who pays for it.

Medicare generally pays less than private insurance though so it should certainly act as a mechanism to make it less expensive.

What's odd to me is that conservatives simultaneously claim that Medicare for all won't help make our system cheaper while simultaneously arguing that Medicare pays so little that doctors will quit and we'll be left with shortages, etc. Logically both cannot be true. Okay it's not odd to me, it's just another excuse to do nothing because opposing an expansion of Medicare is the goal and they will use any argument that is convenient in the moment.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Frankly, I have a hard time even understanding what you're arguing here. "Explain why having a nationwide computer system with next gen AI would be beneficial beyond record keeping?"

I couldn't even tell you what that question means, much less answer it.

I've never seen a straightforward, concise, and persuasive argument for why Medicare for all is unworkable.

It's a payment system that controls the practice of medicine through regulation and algorithms are a poor substitution. Trivial example of one minor cluster. A gerontologist does not use a recommended treatment because it would be harmful at best on a particular payment. To be paid for legit services an extensive report must be filled out every month to justify a medical no brainer. Regulations require that practitioners themselves have to fill out this paperwork repeatedly. She's one of the best, or was, but one word day a week filling out nonsense? There's no medical reason, no "one drawerful of paper for a hospital". One day a week trying to figure out how to get the proper medical treatment in spite of insurance including government programs.

Expand that to every person in the nation? People will find other things to do because they aren't whipping boys. That's one problem.

But your "I don't know what that means" shows you pretty much equal in knowledge of most Americans and politicians.

Know what one thing could be done to most improve care is? On a regular basis a trained professional, not a doc or provider, sits down and spends one and a half hours or more talking to the patient. Yep. The "let's get the most value by having the most people seen in a unit time" is counterproductive, but it looks good to bean counters. The interviewer is looking for things unrelated to a complaint, like maybe they are jaundiced but have a foot complaint. Preventing or mitigating diseases before it would be known otherwise. Let's see you are taking medications from Dr. Spock- "Wait, who? I don't know who that is". That's your cardiologist "Oh I ditched him". Happens all the time. On and on and on.

But spending the necessary money for something that cannot be rushed. Medicare simply won't allow for that rational level of care as things sit.

 

[realibrad]

OK, and I have no objection doing more of this but remember I was reacting to what I felt was the good quality of somebody else's post and in order to do that there would have to be more post like it to have that response to. The real variable, then, as I see it was that he was taking a position against dehumanization I feel does not receive enough attention or expression and additionally what obstacles I have personally that I see before me being truly rid of that issue myself. I suppose, what I was saying is nothing really new or unique, just a rehashing of 'the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak'. Another way to say thins is perhaps that I am way way ahead in the development of my abstract understanding of what a proper life might look like than I am in my ability to live actually live it. At the same time, I think that being able to see this is not trivial to its solution even if I personally have no ultimate success.

Don't base your actions on others. If you think you can do good, do it.

 

[interchange]

I like what you say here and I agree with you that dehumanization is wrong, but I think I do recognize Trump within me. It seems to me I have the same urge as he does to put people down who disagree or oppose me. So here I am utterly repelled and disgusted by Trump and just like him wishing I were not. I have not personally put this conflict to rest which means I have to live with it and the only way I can find to manage that is to not take myself too seriously noting that's exactly what I do (take myself too seriously). To be or not to be, if that's the question I just don't understand it. I guess this interpersonal nastiness as you describe it makes me a little sad. There was a time when I was wide wide open and didn't know how to play that game and then I learned well or so it seems to me.

Anyway, I find your words touching and generative of a longing for something better.

Yeah. "Wrong" is pretty harsh moralism. I don't think there's anything our minds do that is "wrong". There's a good reason we reach to dehumanize. But I do think, for society's sake, as much as possible we are better off with people finding more pro-social strategies to handle whatever it is that motivates us to dehumanize.

 

[Moonbeam]

Don't base your actions on others. If you think you can do good, do it.

Well the good I think I was trying to do was to point out a post that I felt suggested a high moral standard and I wanted to say I felt that way but that there are issues for me that come even after I see how much like Trump I am. What keeps us with feet of clay? Why am I like a person whose behavior is disgusting. Is it that I see but not really or don't really care, or something else?

 

[realibrad]

Well the good I think I was trying to do was to point out a post that I felt suggested a high moral standard and I wanted to say I felt that way but that there are issues for me that come even after I see how much like Trump I am. What keeps us with feet of clay? Why am I like a person whose behavior is disgusting. Is it that I see but not really or don't really care, or something else?

Ability can be used for good or bad. Your feet of clay makes me think you are a fan of someone that believed the same thing. A person that cannot do harm is a person that has no power to do good either. What makes you different from someone like Trump is what you do with what you have.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yeah. "Wrong" is pretty harsh moralism. I don't think there's anything our minds do that is "wrong". There's a good reason we reach to dehumanize. But I do think, for society's sake, as much as possible we are better off with people finding more pro-social strategies to handle whatever it is that motivates us to dehumanize.

Hehe at wrong is pretty harsh. I don't know how you prove it's wrong but I am as sure as shit that it is and that, therefore, everything you added after that certainly follows in making good moral sense. I just wish to hell I could state unequivocally and unambiguously, on a personal level, that I am free of the temptation. The best I can do at my level of understanding is to say I am aware of the temptation and fall to it sometimes. That opens an additional moral dilemma, as far as I am concerned. I don't want to be so obsessed with my lack of moral character that I collapse in self recrimination nor become so glib that I fail to hope for change. I likely also do both of those. This is when the a saying from the WW1 German trenches seems to appear unbidden to my mind:
Die Lage ist hoffnungslos, aber nicht ernst

 

[Moonbeam]

Ability can be used for good or bad. Your feet of clay makes me think you are a fan of someone that believed the same thing. A person that cannot do harm is a person that has no power to do good either. What makes you different from someone like Trump is what you do with what you have.

Yes, well I have a world class navigation system and a weak propeller. He has a powerful propeller and doesn't have the fucking faintest idea what to do with it. I'm like smoking a joint watching the end of the world on TV going FAR OUT and he's going, SOMEBODY GIVE ME THE FUCKING BUTTON!

 

[Jhhnn]

Do you understand how public services work?

I understand transit better than most because I worked in the industry for decades. Transantiago is actually what we would call privatized service here in the US. The state pays contractors who often fail to deliver-

But Transantiago is sputtering. Fare evasion is rampant, journeys are getting slower and the state has spent billions of dollars to prop up private bus operators. Passengers sometimes wait ages at stops scrawled with graffiti with no inkling of when the next bus will arrive. Espacio Público, a think-tank, calls Transantiago Chile’s worst public-policy project since the country returned to democracy in 1990.

https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2017/04/12/santiagos-transport-system-is-sputtering

Here in Denver, the RTD owns & operates the light rail system, most of the bus system & has a public private partnership in commuter rail to the airport. When the GOP ran the state, they mandated that the RTD contract out some bus routes & it has remained that way. The incentives are entirely different so their service record simply doesn't match that of RTD operated routes. They've been a PITA in a variety of ways but serve as a cudgel in contract negotiations.

 

[Greenman]

Thats one pov, another is that this forum has persisted for 20+ years and it took Trump to divide us for good... Thats sad.

Trump had nothing to do with it. The attitudes and beliefs belong entirely to the people that write the words.
You and I can disagree vehemently and still be civil, we can even respect how the other arrived at his position while not agreeing with it, that shouldn't be the exception, it should be the rule.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Semi necro.

There seems to be even fewer conservative AT members post Cohen testimony

Coincidence?

 

[hal2kilo]

Facts have a liberal bias.

 

[herm0016]

I was posting in the D primary thread. You just did not notice enough to call me out.

 

[brycejones]

Semi necro.

There seems to be even fewer conservative AT members post Cohen testimony

Coincidence?

Waiting for the talking points.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Waiting for the talking points.

Here:

http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/where-have-our-conservative-members-gone.2556140/#post-39634362

 

[UglyCasanova]

I think many have given up. Not much discussion of stuff actually going on here, just echo chamber pep rally and trashing people with different point of view. What’s he point in trying to engage and join 8nmwhen all you get is cursing and people telling you how stupid you are.

 

[hal2kilo]

I think many have given up. Not much discussion of stuff actually going on here, just echo chamber pep rally and trashing people with different point of view. What’s he point in trying to engage and join 8nmwhen all you get is cursing and people telling you how stupid you are.

Yet you are still here.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think many have given up. Not much discussion of stuff actually going on here, just echo chamber pep rally and trashing people with different point of view. What’s he point in trying to engage and join 8nmwhen all you get is cursing and people telling you how stupid you are.

It's unfortunate, but it's also nearly impossible for the most people to tell the difference between stupid people and people who are motivated to appear that way.

 

[soundforbjt]

Like in the Cohen testimony, they can't defend Trump, they can only point fingers at the Left and claim blame. Like the old saying, "If you can't say something good. don't say anything at all."

 

[ch33zw1z]

I think many have given up. Not much discussion of stuff actually going on here, just echo chamber pep rally and trashing people with different point of view. What’s he point in trying to engage and join 8nmwhen all you get is cursing and people telling you how stupid you are.

Poor persecuted conservatives. Oh, nice projection, lol

 

[brycejones]

I think many have given up. Not much discussion of stuff actually going on here, just echo chamber pep rally and trashing people with different point of view. What’s he point in trying to engage and join 8nmwhen all you get is cursing and people telling you how stupid you are.

Maybe you should try using facts. Almost without fail you bail when confronted with them or asked what you would actually do.

 

[Paul98]

Yeah you see those who defend the GOP, Trump and anything he does or says. Then the rest just don't want to deal with that anymore as they don't agree with the party of Trump. It's interesting to watch, it's interesting as I have seen this in politics streams on twitch as well

 

[Greenman]

Semi necro.

There seems to be even fewer conservative AT members post Cohen testimony

Coincidence?

There isn't all that much to say about it. Trump apparently used his Jedi mind tricks (that he probably learned from the Russians) to control Cohen for ten years. Seems a little far fetched to me.
It's pretty clear that Trump violated campaign finance laws, he'll be fined for that. Other than that, the guy ratted out everyone but the Pope, we'll see what comes of it.

 

[Jhhnn]

There isn't all that much to say about it. Trump apparently used his Jedi mind tricks (that he probably learned from the Russians) to control Cohen for ten years. Seems a little far fetched to me.
It's pretty clear that Trump violated campaign finance laws, he'll be fined for that. Other than that, the guy ratted out everyone but the Pope, we'll see what comes of it.

Kompromat takes many forms. It's how Trump operates. It's what happens when the money & the prestige are too big to resist. Trump corrupts everything he touches. Everybody who works for Trump or supports Trump lies for him, one way or another.

Cohen quit doing it & takes responsibility for his own actions. It's a cautionary tale told by a man who lost everything serving Trump.

 

[UberNeuman]

There isn't all that much to say about it. Trump apparently used his Jedi mind tricks (that he probably learned from the Russians) to control Cohen for ten years. Seems a little far fetched to me.
It's pretty clear that Trump violated campaign finance laws, he'll be fined for that. Other than that, the guy ratted out everyone but the Pope, we'll see what comes of it.

OH LORD I SHORE DO KNOW NOTHIN' 'BOUT NOTHIN' MISTER SIR. OH THIS BE CRAZY. THEMS RUSSCANS 'N THEYS MAGIC WAYS AINT BEIN' REAL, NO SIR, MISTER SIR.

lol. You suck worse than the obvious trolls.