Where is John Paul II? Why the silence?

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
Not only did Cardinal Bernard Law protect Father John Geoghan, who abused 100 Catholic boys over a career of seduction, molestation and rape, the cardinal moved him from parish to parish to cover his sin. Rather than act as the good shepherd who lays down his life for his sheep, Law covered up the predator tracks of the wolf preying on his lambs.

Nor are pervert-priests confined to Boston or even the United States. While Law has suspended 10 priests and belatedly reported to authorities on possible abuse over decades by 80 others, Cardinal
Roger Mahoney has dismissed a dozen priests from his Los Angeles archdiocese and turned their files over to police.

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia has evidence of abuse by 35 priests over half a century. The Manchester, N.H., diocese reports another dozen. In Palm Beach, Fla., a second bishop has resigned after admitting to molesting a boy. Pedophile priests have been exposed in Ireland, Canada, Poland, Australia, Britain, rance, Mexico and Austria.

Thousands of altar boys and Catholic children have been abused, their lives ruined. The Church has been disgraced, and an outraged faithful made to pay hundreds of millions in damages because of bishops who were derelict in their duty to weed child predators out of seminaries and sanctuaries, and turn them over to the police as the serial criminals they were.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
i think the papacy thinks it'll just go away if they don't say anything... like an ostrich with its head in the sand (yes, i know).
 

Stifko

Diamond Member
Dec 8, 1999
4,799
2
81
i think the papacy thinks it'll just go away if they don't say anything...

They are all in denile. This kind of stuff has been brushed under the rugg from years. Exposing and confronting it would be the best thing to do, but they would rather keep it on the down low & settle outta court.
 

Zwingle

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
1,925
0
0


<< Where is John Paul II? Why the silence? >>


Maybe he is in seclusion with his alter boys:QHoping he won't get caught too......

(yes, I just bagged on the head of the catholic church) I am surely going straight to hell now.......yeah, whatever!

The gov just busted a child porn ring yesterday....including a couple priests......oh my!
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,996
126
Do they let JPII talk about anything anymore? The guy is about 240 years old and high as a kite from breathing incense 10 hours a day. Given the Catholics charade of maintaining Papal infallability, think of the damage JP can cause if he rambles a little. What would the Catholic church become if he said that bingo was immoral or that the money raised in the collection plates would have to be donated to the poor rather than buying another couple of sets of 24karat candlestick holders? It would be chaos, they'd run out of hush money.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,941
264
126
Go bash your protestant churches caught with pedophile pastors in the last child porn sting. Better yet, don't bash anyone or their church about what a relatively few bad preists did. If you had been paying attention to the pope you would have seen his statements critical of the bishops for their silence.

If you have a problem with the pope, try sending him a letter. Did anyone of you ever have the presence of mind to send him an email?
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
1
0


<< Better yet, don't bash anyone or their church about what a relatively few bad preists did. >>


When the church performs a coverup - and it has in several of these pedophile cases - it's acceptable to drag it through the mud...simply being a religious institution does not grant it immunity from justified criticism.


<< you would have seen his statements critical of the bishops for their silence. >>


Haven't seen diddly over the wire. If he has said anything, it hasn't been well publicized.
 

chrisjor

Golden Member
Dec 4, 2001
1,736
0
0
GagHalfrunt


geez, put down the snakes and quit speakin in tongues long enough to look around and see just how much money is given by Catholic Charities to all levels of society. An awful lot of soup kitchens are Catholic based, this is just the tip of the iceberg!! There are many more that go unheralded. I would prefer JPII as spiritual leader over Jim and Tammy Faye Baker any day.

What you are seeing is a mini-revolution in the Church and a purging of the garbage that has been allowed to fester in it since liberal influences have been allowed to degrade it.
 

Zwingle

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2001
1,925
0
0


<< I would prefer JPII as spiritual leader over Jim and Tammy Faye Baker any day. >>


Only spiritual leaders I believe in is Jack Daniels and Jim Beam....the rest are all fake. The catholic church is nothing more than a real big cult. What the hell makes the pope so special that he is made out to be so close to god? Closer than any of its members? He is nothing more than a cult leader......this is part of the reason I gave up in my belief in god.....the other is because I got older and smarter and could not find myself believing in something that had no basis in truth. At lease science has evidence to back up evolution. I cannot believe in something just because.
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
Go bash your protestant churches caught with pedophile pastors in the last child porn sting. Better yet, don't bash anyone or their church about what a relatively few bad preists did. If you had been paying attention to the pope you would have seen his statements critical of the bishops for their silence.

Madrat,
This sort of cover-up is impossible in my protestant denomination. Not so much due to size (we are the largest protestant denomination), but rather our bottom-up power structure. The local assembly possesses ALL the authority, and each member is a fully empowered voting agent.

Does this sort of garbage happen? Sadly, yes. However, not over and over again with higher-ups covering and moving you to fresh hunting ground.

I did not mean this as a general bash on the Roman church. I think that John Paul II is not capable of running the organization, and that lack of vibrant leadership is showing. The Roman church needs to clean house, even if this increases its shortage of priest.

John

Pope is seen as too ill to lead response to sex-abuse scandals
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,941
264
126
Catholics prefer longevity of leadership over dynamic change. It doesn't take a vibrant leader to hold the chore, but if you've followed the career of John Paul II then you'd know he's anything but quiet. Go the official website of the Holy See (Vatican City) and see for yourself. He releases long sermons every Wednesday. In fact, he gives mass to the faithful almost every Wednesday. Once in awhile (and it is rare) he travels and misses the Wednesday engagements. John Paul II has been the most active leader (since probably the apostle Peter himself) in the Catholic church. His message is clear, concise, and he doesn't pull any punches on what is expected out of the faithful.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,941
264
126
btw - Each national segment of the Catholic Church has control of their own affairs. The cardinals answer directly to the Pope, but each cardinal is elected by members of the local leadership of arch bishops. Arch bishops carry the chore of leading smaller subunits, usually limited to state or major cities in scope. Arch bishops are elected from local bishops, whom they themselves are elected from the brotherhood of priests. Corrupt cardinals, bishops, and preists have done all of the damage. The Pope is free of this sin of ommision.
 

Robert01

Golden Member
Aug 13, 2000
1,426
0
0


<< Only spiritual leaders I believe in is Jack Daniels and Jim Beam....the rest are all fake. The catholic church is nothing more than a real big cult. What the hell makes the pope so special that he is made out to be so close to god? Closer than any of its members? He is nothing more than a cult leader......this is part of the reason I gave up in my belief in god.....the other is because I got older and smarter and could not find myself believing in something that had no basis in truth. At lease science has evidence to back up evolution. I cannot believe in something just because >>



If you were really smart, you would know what the definition of a "cult" really is. Why are you so bitter, anyway?
 

Igore

Member
Jun 28, 2001
50
0
0
JPII made a public statement today (or maybe yesterday) condeming the actions and whatnot. you can find it on most any news web site today.

I think if one were inclined, they could search through history and find that the catholic church has done many things that were and still are considered horrible. but one could also claim that just about very religion has its own "skeletons in the closet". it has long been the policy, however unwritten, that these types of problems should be rectified internally, that is to say without the public lime light involved. they also have the "if we don't talk about it, it will go away" philosophy. i don't agree with either policy, personally. i am a catholic and was an alter boy in my youth and never, thankfully, had to experience such horrors. i can say that i am peronally appalled (sp?) at the actions of these church leaders, both the preists that committed the acts and those that covered it up. i think this new public knowledge will lead to a change in some church policies and i think that change is long overdue. but i think that the majority of the change will happen at the local levels, at least at first. i wouldn't look from much from the top of the food chain, ie... JPII and his staff. "a little revolution now and then, is a good thing...." (Sean Conery playing Captian Marco Ramius from The Hunt for Red Octobre)... so we shall see what comes of it.

my 1.5 cents.

ig
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
If you were really smart, you would know what the definition of a "cult" really is. Why are you so bitter, anyway?

Robert01,
Do you know the defintion of a cult?

Webster.com

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
Date: 1617
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents


Consider the following, to at least know where the guy is coming from:

Dr. Bill Jackson, president of the Association of Fundamentalists Evangelizing Catholics (AFEC), prepared the following, "The Marks of a Cult," as applied to the Roman Catholic Church:

1) Extra Biblical Revelation. Dr. Ludwig Ott, probably the most readable and conservative Roman Catholic theologian, has written in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma: ?Theology, like faith, accepts as the source of its knowledge Holy Writ and Tradition ... and also the doctrinal assertions of the church ? this latter means the day by day teaching ministry of the Church through the pope and the bishops united with the pope.? (This latter is referred to as the Magesterium.)

2) False Basis of Salvation. From Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), #16: ?the ways of reaching beatitude?through right conduct, with the help of God?s law and grace, through conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity, specified in God?s Ten Commandments.?

3) Uncertain Hope. A very complimentary article in The Philadelphia Inquirer stated of the late Cardinal Krol: ?He doesn?t have to worry about food, clothing, shelter. What are his worries? ?My salvation, getting to Heaven? says the Prelate.?

4) Presumptuous Messianic Leadership. If the pope is NOT the Vicar of the Messiah (Christ), he is presumptuous in thus identifying himself. Jesus Christ knew His church would need an infallible Head, so He Himself chose His Vicar in John 14:26, 15:26 and 16:7-15. This Vicar is not only infallible, He is infinite. He is the Holy Spirit.

5) Doctrinal Ambiguity. From the New Catholic Encyclopedia: ?The Bible as a literary work had traditions that included myth? (Vol. 10, p. 184); ?Some of the miracles recorded in Holy Scripture may be fictional and include imaginative literary exaggerations. The episode of Noah and the Ark is imaginative literary creation? (Vol. 9, p. 887); ?The Gospels are not biographies of Jesus and still less scientific history? (Vol. 12, p. 403).

6) Claims of Special Discoveries. These, in Catholicism, are numberless. They go from the Letter of the Oration, a ?true letter? of Jesus found in the Holy Sepulchre to the revelations at Fatima (an apparition approved by the Vatican). In between are countless appearances of Mary to Catherine Laboure, Simon Stock, the visionaries at Medjugorje and Bernadette Soubirous, etc. Add a few of Bob and Penny Lord?s ?Eucharistic Miracles? and you have more special discoveries than all the other cults combined.

7) Defective Christology. Pius XII?s encyclical, Mediator Dei: Christ ?has offered and continues to offer Himself as a victim for our sins.? Hebrews 9:25 says, ?nor yet that he should offer himself often.? Hebrews 10:14, ?For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.?

8) Segmented Biblical Attention. ?The Seven Verses of Scripture Authoritatively Interpreted by Rome? (from the Denver Catholic Register, 3/29/90, p. 10): ?Father (Francis X.) Cleary (S.J.), scripture scholar and professor in the Department of Theological Studies of St. Louis University, writes, ?Many people think that the Church has an official ?party line? about every sentence in the Bible. In fact, only seven passages have been definitively interpreted.??

9) Enslaving Organizational Structures. This may not be as evident in contemporary ?liberated? American Catholicism, but it was very much a fact for Europe?s millions in past centuries. All were taught that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, which through her bishops could impose anathemas or excommunication seemingly at will. The masses of people were controlled by that system. Even the kings of Europe quaked at the possibility of papal displeasure.

10) Financial Exploitation. The coins ringing in the coffers of Tetzel have ceased, and exorbitant payments for early purgatorial release can be relegated to previous centuries, but the very fact that any Mass stipend is expected for Masses to remit fictitious purgatorial suffering is a case for financial exploitation.

11) Denunciation of Others. Priest Lawrence Feeney of the Boston Heresy Trial believed ?extra nullus salus ecclesia? (no salvation outside the church). He was approached by Bobby Kennedy, who complained that Feeney was sending his Protestant friends to hell. Feeney replied, ?I?m not sending them to hell, but I am telling them where to come if they want to get to Heaven.?

12) Syncretism. From Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), #846: ?Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try by their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience?those too may achieve eternal salvation.?

 

AMDJunkie

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 1999
3,431
5
81
He is correct by saying that the Catholic church is not an unorthodox or spurious religion. It has existed and evolved since the first Christians ate their meals together and shared the wrods of the Christ and celebrated the Jewish sabbith.

"Association of Fundamentalists Evangelizing Catholics (AFEC)"

So is fundamentalist Christianity the only true way to salvation, as we apparently have false methods of salvation, and of course, the Church is fully for denouncing others, unlike the organiztion mentioned above, helping poor Catholics find the real way.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,941
264
126
I'm not sure where you are trying to go with these points.

<<2) False Basis of Salvation. From Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), #16: ?the ways of reaching beatitude?through right conduct, with the help of God?s law and grace, through conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity, specified in God?s Ten Commandments.?>>

The fundemental difference between Catholicism and many Protestant sects is in the basis of Salvation. This is no new news.

<<3) Uncertain Hope. A very complimentary article in The Philadelphia Inquirer stated of the late Cardinal Krol: ?He doesn?t have to worry about food, clothing, shelter. What are his worries? ?My salvation, getting to Heaven? says the Prelate.?>>

If you know of Christ, believe in Christ, accept him for your Savior, and give up sin what is your worry?

<<4) Presumptuous Messianic Leadership. If the pope is NOT the Vicar of the Messiah (Christ), he is presumptuous in thus identifying himself. Jesus Christ knew His church would need an infallible Head, so He Himself chose His Vicar in John 14:26, 15:26 and 16:7-15. This Vicar is not only infallible, He is infinite. He is the Holy Spirit.>>

I'm not sure I understand the point being made here. There isn't a point, but more of a statement of "if".

<<5) Doctrinal Ambiguity. From the New Catholic Encyclopedia: ?The Bible as a literary work had traditions that included myth? (Vol. 10, p. 184); ?Some of the miracles recorded in Holy Scripture may be fictional and include imaginative literary exaggerations. The episode of Noah and the Ark is imaginative literary creation? (Vol. 9, p. 887); ?The Gospels are not biographies of Jesus and still less scientific history? (Vol. 12, p. 403).>>

Samarian texts contain stories of Creation that parrallel the book of Genesis. The authenticity of the story is uncertain, as are some of the origins of other books in the Old Testament. However, every book in the Bible has been subjected to an acid test to verify if the work was inspired or not. I do question the goal of the middle ages to rid the world of pagan texts considering their value to the modern age. Sure would have been alot more answers to questions if we had those old texts still around... but this is entirely off topic.

<<6) Claims of Special Discoveries. These, in Catholicism, are numberless. They go from the Letter of the Oration, a ?true letter? of Jesus found in the Holy Sepulchre to the revelations at Fatima (an apparition approved by the Vatican). In between are countless appearances of Mary to Catherine Laboure, Simon Stock, the visionaries at Medjugorje and Bernadette Soubirous, etc. Add a few of Bob and Penny Lord?s ?Eucharistic Miracles? and you have more special discoveries than all the other cults combined.>>

What is he trying to say here, that an apparation is unprecedented?

<<7) Defective Christology. Pius XII?s encyclical, Mediator Dei: Christ ?has offered and continues to offer Himself as a victim for our sins.? Hebrews 9:25 says, ?nor yet that he should offer himself often.? Hebrews 10:14, ?For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.?>>

I'd have to see the whole text to make a judgement on this claim. I'm unaware of the pope being superhuman and not misspeaking.

<<8) Segmented Biblical Attention. ?The Seven Verses of Scripture Authoritatively Interpreted by Rome? (from the Denver Catholic Register, 3/29/90, p. 10): ?Father (Francis X.) Cleary (S.J.), scripture scholar and professor in the Department of Theological Studies of St. Louis University, writes, ?Many people think that the Church has an official ?party line? about every sentence in the Bible. In fact, only seven passages have been definitively interpreted.??>>

I'm again, unaware of what they are trying to claim here. Does this claim have any more detail?

<<9) Enslaving Organizational Structures. This may not be as evident in contemporary ?liberated? American Catholicism, but it was very much a fact for Europe?s millions in past centuries. All were taught that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, which through her bishops could impose anathemas or excommunication seemingly at will. The masses of people were controlled by that system. Even the kings of Europe quaked at the possibility of papal displeasure.>>

The middle ages are long since over with.

<<10) Financial Exploitation. The coins ringing in the coffers of Tetzel have ceased, and exorbitant payments for early purgatorial release can be relegated to previous centuries, but the very fact that any Mass stipend is expected for Masses to remit fictitious purgatorial suffering is a case for financial exploitation.>>

I can show you Protestant churches that require W-2's and tax statements.

<<11) Denunciation of Others. Priest Lawrence Feeney of the Boston Heresy Trial believed ?extra nullus salus ecclesia? (no salvation outside the church). He was approached by Bobby Kennedy, who complained that Feeney was sending his Protestant friends to hell. Feeney replied, ?I?m not sending them to hell, but I am telling them where to come if they want to get to Heaven.?>>

Its not unusual for the word of a local bishop to be elevated in importance to that of coming from the pope. The truth is that the bishop has no authority to make rules as he sees fit. An abuse of power at the local level isn't reflective of a pope twenty years later I'd reason.

<<12) Syncretism. From Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), #846: ?Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try by their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience?those too may achieve eternal salvation.?>>

There is an ongoing debate about the idea of salvation outside of the church and using pathways that circumvent Jesus. I am unaware of any non-Christ source of salvation that has been officially supported by the pope. Catechisms are something that are revised yearly by hundred of editors, some of which make mistakes.
 

JohnnyReb

Banned
Feb 20, 2002
212
0
0
I'm not sure where you are trying to go with these points.\

Just showing Robert01 that people generally have a basis for their opinions, whether you agree with them or not. He mocked the guy who called the Roman church a cult. Basically, any religious group can legitimately be called a cult by other religious groups.

BTW, I don't agree with all the points. For example, the Eternal Covenant with the Jews is still just as valid as it ever was.

John
 
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