Where is the legitimacy in these 'insurgents' ?

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
54 people died to further the cause of who or what ?

or the murder of election officials. who is cheering this on ?

many cite this as reason for not being there when its reason enough to ensure that these elements should
not be allowed to exist under any conditions, within any state, at any time.

these savages are holding the native populace hostage, are playing to the western press, and are
looking to score major points against a momentous shift to a democratic state with these sensational
crimes.

there is nothing markedly different between the crimes these 'insurgents' committed against their political
enemies when they were in power, ruling iraq as official ba'athist henchmen, and what they are now doing
against the very same civilians and opposition figures who dare defy their autocratic will. the presence of
the united states has hidden this reality. the same people who did the killing and oppressing under saddam
are the same people, largely, who are doing the same now. it would have been from this pool that saddam
chose to recruit his torturers, mass murderers, and assorted evil-doers.

so where is their legitimacy when their victims have not changed and the killers are the same ?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
Have they attacked any Wedding Parties lately?

Both sides have Legitimacy problems.
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,942
10
81
Yeah - where the F##K does Bush get off killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's just to get essentially 3 people (Saddam & his sons)?

Let the insurgents force a taste of Bush's own medicine down his own throat!
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Where is the legitimacy in these 'insurgents' ?

You can find it in the same place you'll find the legitimacy of Bush's immoral, illegal, unprovoked invasion.

 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Heh... it's like if you kill someone's father, force their mom to work in a factory 12 hours a day without enough pay to feed her children, and then later complain that the children are stealing from local grocery stores.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Have they attacked any Wedding Parties lately?

Both sides have Legitimacy problems.

You willing to prove beyond reasonable doubt that those were wedding parties or is this just more Bush bashing? The reports on the wedding party hits made them look verysuspicious in my mind. Knowing how sneaky the terrorist are and knowing that they hide behind skirts made them ligitimate hits to me. If you have any proof, post it!

 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Yeah - where the F##K does Bush get off killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's just to get essentially 3 people (Saddam & his sons)?

Let the insurgents force a taste of Bush's own medicine down his own throat!

Lets see, how many did we kill to get Hitler?

 

RealityTime

Senior member
Oct 18, 2004
665
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Yeah - where the F##K does Bush get off killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's just to get essentially 3 people (Saddam & his sons)?

Let the insurgents force a taste of Bush's own medicine down his own throat!

Lets see, how many did we kill to get Hitler?


bush=much closer to hitler than churchhill
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Have they attacked any Wedding Parties lately?

Both sides have Legitimacy problems.

You willing to prove beyond reasonable doubt that those were wedding parties or is this just more Bush bashing? The reports on the wedding party hits made them look verysuspicious in my mind. Knowing how sneaky the terrorist are and knowing that they hide behind skirts made them ligitimate hits to me. If you have any proof, post it!

That's right. All those sneaky Iraqis going about their daily lives (as best they can with a foreign invader occupying their country) are really tricky terrorists dressed up in wedding gowns waiting to rain terror down on their unsuspecting liberators.

We're slaughtering Iraqi civilians by the tens of thousands. 25 million Iraqis aren't all terrorists. At least not yet.

Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Yeah - where the F##K does Bush get off killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's just to get essentially 3 people (Saddam & his sons)?

Let the insurgents force a taste of Bush's own medicine down his own throat!

Lets see, how many did we kill to get Hitler?

Your Hitler analogy is ridiculous. Hitler was invading and occupying nations that posed no threat to Germany. He attacked them unprovoked. Hmm, just like the Bush administration is doing in Iraq. Maybe your analogy is just misplaced.

Hitler was a real threat that could not be ignored. Saddam, as we all now know without doubt, was a contrived threat.


 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Yeah - where the F##K does Bush get off killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's just to get essentially 3 people (Saddam & his sons)?

Let the insurgents force a taste of Bush's own medicine down his own throat!

Lets see, how many did we kill to get Hitler?

Both sides are wrong. I declare you Hitler. How many can I now justify killing?

You have no argument here. I don't like the insurgents doing this, but they would not be there if we hadn't opened the door and let them in. If there is terrorism in Iraq today, it is directly due to the actions of Bush.


 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Have they attacked any Wedding Parties lately?

Both sides have Legitimacy problems.

You willing to prove beyond reasonable doubt that those were wedding parties or is this just more Bush bashing? The reports on the wedding party hits made them look verysuspicious in my mind. Knowing how sneaky the terrorist are and knowing that they hide behind skirts made them ligitimate hits to me. If you have any proof, post it!

Of course they were very suspicious in your mind. That's your problem not mine.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,042
38,540
136
Hitler was a real threat that could not be ignored. Saddam, as we all now know without doubt, was a contrived threat.


Quite so. Makes you wonder where we'd be today had there been no Iran-Contra affair back in the 80s to convince Saddam we were out to get him. Woe to the nation led by near-sighted conservatives...
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Here's a piece from the NY Times that covers some of the questions raised in the OP.

In Northern Iraq, the Insurgency Has Two Faces, Secular and Jihad, but a Common Goal

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

Published: December 19, 2004

MOSUL, Iraq - After a three-hour firefight here in northern Iraq this month, American commanders were surprised to learn that one of the 22 insurgents they had killed was a Saudi. Even more intriguing, one of the principal leaders of the insurgency attended the funeral, the commanders learned.

This was Mohammed Sharkawa, who is described as a former member of the Ansar al-Sunna organization who now directs several hundred insurgents here in Mosul. As one commander, who said Mr. Sharkawa had killed several of his own cousins, put it, he is "a brutally ruthless criminal, almost like a mob wiseguy who started whacking dudes."

Yet Mr. Sharkawa represents only one face of the insurgency. He works for jihadist goals, but another movement is secular, the Americans say, though both have a common goal: disrupting the Jan. 30 national parliamentary elections and intimidating prospective voters.

As they do so, each group operates with sophisticated leaders careful to stay in the background while relying on part-timers to carry out attacks and killings on a pay-by-assault basis, according to American officials, who are always striving to calculate the extent and nature of the insurgency.

Meanwhile, the insurgents benefit from a stream of money trucked in from Syria for the cause, the Americans say.

Mr. Sharkawa, the commanders say, is a leader of the Salafists, or extremist Islamists who want a government so weak that the vacuum allows a Taliban-style theocracy to develop locally. That happened in Falluja, which was ruled by an ad hoc fundamentalist government from summer until American marines invaded in November. "Right now, if we could get one guy off the street in northern Iraq, he would be the guy," Brig. Gen. Carter F. Ham, the top American commander in Mosul, said. "He is the organizer for a number of operations up here."

The Salafists are working with a quite different group, commanders say, made up of Saddam Hussein loyalists and others from his Baathist Party who want to regain power by promising a return to the "stability" of Baathist rule. It is no surprise that they would gather in Mosul, a city of two million with an enduring base of Baathists that has long been favored by former Iraqi military officers.

Saddam loyalists "differ significantly from the religious extremists, who don't want any strong government," General Ham said. "What they both want now is instability and insecurity."

Other insurgents here identify with the Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Al Qaeda. According to American military statistics compiled after the invasion of Falluja, nearly 500 of roughly 700 insurgents in Iraq aligned with or sympathetic to Mr. Zarqawi and Al Qaeda live in or around Mosul.

In the compilation, the most detailed picture of the Iraqi insurgency to be made public, military officials estimate that about 11,000 to 20,000 insurgents were spread throughout Iraq. Of that number, 700 to 1,200 fled Falluja in November just before the invasion.

The largest group remains loyal to Mr. Hussein: Some 2,200 to 3,300 insurgents are classified as "hard core" supporters of the former ruler. Another 6,100 to 10,200 are "part time" supporters, a designation one military official said included those paid to carry out rocket-propelled grenade and other attacks on American troops.

In addition, as many as 2,900 "Shia extremists" - including rebel cleric Moktada al-Sadr's Mahdi militia - operate mostly in Baghdad and southern Iraq, while 1,200 to 2,400 "Islamic extremists" who do not identify themselves with Mr. Zarqawi or Al Qaeda are also part of the estimates.

The figures were compiled from data from each of the seven military commands in Iraq using observations by troops, interrogations and other intelligence, said one military official, who emphasized the data were rough calculations and that the estimates are ever-changing.

In Mosul, the insurgents' main focus has been terrorizing Iraqi residents and killing in brutal fashion those believed to work with Americans. More than 100 people - many in the Iraqi National Guard or Iraqi Army - have been shot in the head execution style, or decapitated, burned, dismembered or otherwise killed in the last month. The killers order that the bodies not be moved, to spread word of the deaths - and the people obey, until American troops arrive with body bags. Insurgents also burned three-quarters of the city's election registration materials, sending officials scrambling to sign people up.

"Their common aims are to disrupt the elections process and delegitimize the existing government," said Col. Tom Knight, the deputy commander of American troops in northern Iraq. "There's no denying it has been a successful tactic and that it has discouraged local support."

"We continue to learn each day that these guys are smart, they're tough and they are committed," he added. "When we deal them a tactical military defeat, they come back and counter with something like a diffused intimidation campaign. I can't sit here and tell you that we've overcome their best efforts yet."

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Yet commanders also say there are more hopeful signs: Commerce is returning and the markets of Mosul are busy, while American and Iraqi forces are getting better tips about insurgent activities. "We are starting to see the people of Mosul passing along intelligence about where some of these people are hiding out," General Ham said.

Equally significant is that fewer anti-American Iraqis exist or appear willing to do battle. It used to cost just $50 to hire an Iraqi youth to fire a rocket-propelled grenade at American troops; it now costs $100 to $200, the general said.

But the increase is small compared with amount of money that insurgents have at their disposal - mostly cash that is driven by car or truck into the country from Syria, General Ham said, where scores of senior Baath Party officials and Saddam apparatchiks fled after the American invasion last year.

"They're not hurting for cash." he said. "That's a problem."

With so much money flowing in, past incompetent or easily bribed or intimidated border guards, the insurgents have been able to keep refilling their ranks of low-level or part-time mercenaries while their leaders hide in the dusty warrens of Old Mosul district or the Yarmouk neighborhood.

Important captures have been made recently, including a top Zarqawi lieutenant, Abu Saeed. More than 200 insurgents have been killed in Mosul in the last month.

But the secular and jihadi wings each have a few hundred core operators in Mosul, and "the fighters who can be rented out probably number in the thousands," General Ham said.

"The hard core group is quite smart; they get others to do their work for them," the general added. "All the dumb guys are dead or in jail. The surviving leaders are very competent."

 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Originally posted by: syzygy
54 people died to further the cause of who or what ?

or the murder of election officials. who is cheering this on ?

many cite this as reason for not being there when its reason enough to ensure that these elements should
not be allowed to exist under any conditions, within any state, at any time.

these savages are holding the native populace hostage, are playing to the western press, and are
looking to score major points against a momentous shift to a democratic state with these sensational
crimes.

there is nothing markedly different between the crimes these 'insurgents' committed against their political
enemies when they were in power, ruling iraq as official ba'athist henchmen, and what they are now doing
against the very same civilians and opposition figures who dare defy their autocratic will. the presence of
the united states has hidden this reality. the same people who did the killing and oppressing under saddam
are the same people, largely, who are doing the same now. it would have been from this pool that saddam
chose to recruit his torturers, mass murderers, and assorted evil-doers.

so where is their legitimacy when their victims have not changed and the killers are the same ?

This is probably what the Iraqis ask whenever a U.S. bomb slaughters a bunch of innocent people in the name of Democracy. *shrug* This is but one reason WHY WE SHOULD NOT HAVE ATTACKED IRAQ.

Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Yeah - where the F##K does Bush get off killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's just to get essentially 3 people (Saddam & his sons)?

Let the insurgents force a taste of Bush's own medicine down his own throat!

Lets see, how many did we kill to get Hitler?
Saddam !=Hitler
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: sandorski
Have they attacked any Wedding Parties lately?

Both sides have Legitimacy problems.

You willing to prove beyond reasonable doubt that those were wedding parties or is this just more Bush bashing? The reports on the wedding party hits made them look verysuspicious in my mind. Knowing how sneaky the terrorist are and knowing that they hide behind skirts made them ligitimate hits to me. If you have any proof, post it!

It sure sounds honest to claim America is about winning hearts and minds in Iraq, when the people behind the campaign readily accept any slaughter of innocents in the occupied country, and simply assume they were terrorists.
 

Grunt03

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2000
3,131
0
0
You cry and moan for these people but when a Marine kills an unarmed fighter you get your panties in a knot..

Here's a news flash for you all, the Insurgents are one and the same, weather they are killing the US forces or civilians... They are winning thus far and I will tell you why.... The Mothers of America, media and all of the arm chair warriors need to Shut the F%ck up. If our military would be cut lose to do what they do best, hunt the guys down, forget about capture, just kill them all. Give it no more than two weeks and the resistance would be wipped out. They are controlling the pace of the war becouse we are trying to appear like the saint in the fight.......
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Yeah - where the F##K does Bush get off killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's just to get essentially 3 people (Saddam & his sons)?

Let the insurgents force a taste of Bush's own medicine down his own throat!

What is your problem. The soldiers are getting the taste of the insurgents, not Bush. You want more of our soldiers to die? You liberals are absolutely despicable.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
Originally posted by: Grunt03
You cry and moan for these people but when a Marine kills an unarmed fighter you get your panties in a knot..

Here's a news flash for you all, the Insurgents are one and the same, weather they are killing the US forces or civilians... They are winning thus far and I will tell you why.... The Mothers of America, media and all of the arm chair warriors need to Shut the F%ck up. If our military would be cut lose to do what they do best, hunt the guys down, forget about capture, just kill them all. Give it no more than two weeks and the resistance would be wipped out. They are controlling the pace of the war becouse we are trying to appear like the saint in the fight.......






Well then, by your own logic, wouldn't it be easier to just hunt down "The Mothers of America, media and all of the arm chair warriors"? "forget about capture, just kill them all"?



BTW, what is an "arm chair warrior" and doesn't this post show that you are one?

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
We're slaughtering Iraqi civilians by the tens of thousands. 25 million Iraqis aren't all terrorists. At least not yet.

Get better rhetoric is my suggestion. Slaughtering 10s of thousands?!?!?!? Do you even have an inkling of what that means? Or do you like to throw it out there for the drama aspect?

You have no argument here. I don't like the insurgents doing this, but they would not be there if we hadn't opened the door and let them in. I

But saddam would right? Your arguments fail your own logic test.

Hitler was a real threat that could not be ignored. Saddam, as we all now know without doubt, was a contrived threat.

How do you figure? What did Hitler ever do to the United States? His invasions were thousands of miles away! Even worse, when the Japanese attacked us we went after Hitler first and made him our primary target. We are such imperialists! :disgust:


 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
We're slaughtering Iraqi civilians by the tens of thousands. 25 million Iraqis aren't all terrorists. At least not yet.

Get better rhetoric is my suggestion. Slaughtering 10s of thousands?!?!?!? Do you even have an inkling of what that means? Or do you like to throw it out there for the drama aspect?
Get better info. Iraqi body count. Iraqi civilian deaths: between 14876 and 17072. Or from New Scientist minimum 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians due to Bush's unprovoked invasion and occupation.
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
Where is the legitimacy in these 'insurgents'

if they are iraqi, then i'd say they have legitimate right to expel foriegn invaders, including those that may be terrorists from other countries -- and I would expect no less.
 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
0
0
Amazing that people are praising the acts of the insurgents in order that their political stance might be proven valid. This is a sick thread.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
The kill people at funeral processions, and we kill them at weddings. Who is the bigger man?
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Amazing that people are praising the acts of the insurgents in order that their political stance might be proven valid. This is a sick thread.

I think you misunderstand the notion of praising insurgents over the fact that the Iraqi people are fightning for their country against an occupier they don't want there. If America was invaded, would you be complacent? Let the invaders run all over you, kill your family, turn you city into smoldering pile of chit or blow up your neightbors house, then turn a blind eye?

Maybe America needs to have some serious urban street warfare come to its shores to get a feel for what Iraqi's go thru on a regular basis, only worse for them because they're fighting foreigners who don't speak their language nor understand their culture.

Or are you just a narrow minded ostrich with tunnel vision?
 
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