which new more modern mmo to play...?

[ggnl]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok


How do you make the Time = Gear > Player Input when it comes to WoW now? As far as arena gear goes all you need to do is play 10 games per week, and at the right time of day, that can take no more than an hour. Yes, you'll have to do a bit of the honor grind to get the non-set pieces, but considering you have an entire arena season (many months) to do it I wouldn't say that's too much to ask. With the personal rating the items have now, and all items will have personal ratings come Season 4, how can you claim it takes no skill? Certain people will NEVER get these items unless they're good regardless of gear. You HAVE to find a team that's good enough to get a good rating. Same could be said for end game raiding - yes, you do need the gear and that does take time, but you also need to find people that are good enough (quick reflexes, know what's going on, able to adapt, etc.) to learn/beat some of the boss fights. It seems like all you do is focus on the aspects that back up your points, and on none of those that don't - but I guess that's the point, isn't it?

Arena points will only buy you 7 of the 16 (or 8/17 if you DW) gear slots you need to fill. The remaining 9 slots are going to cost you ~150k honor which is 50-75 hours grinding BG's if you do it solo.

And good luck getting arena points with a fresh 70. It takes a looong time to save up for pieces with 1200-1300 rated teams. Like 6-10 weeks each for just the normal armor pieces which is seriously discouraging to casual gamers.

It's much easier than it used to be, but it's still a huge time sink.

 

[BenSkywalker]

And good luck getting arena points with a fresh 70. It takes a looong time to save up for pieces with 1200-1300 rated teams. Like 6-10 weeks each for just the normal armor pieces which is seriously discouraging to casual gamers.

Hmm, my druid teamed up with a warlock within a couple days of hitting 70 and we are normally in the 1550-1600 range for ranking despite my druid being largely still in very much pve centered cloth gear. We are in the Bloodlust BG for the record. Sure, we aren't going to be running in the upper echelon until we get some better gear, but it isn't very hard to get into a decent ratings range barring you don't have a horrible combo for arenas.

there isn't a single MMO on the market that has come even remotely close to being in the same solar system to being skill based

I would LOVE to see you and 24 other 'skilled' gamers handed all the best loot in WoW and see you drop in Mu'ru inside of a week. The comical thing about most people of your mindset is you never came remotely close to hitting anything resembling challenging in the game so it must be because you didn't have the gear.... it's a good cop out for those with next to no skill.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: ggnl
Arena points will only buy you 7 of the 16 (or 8/17 if you DW) gear slots you need to fill. The remaining 9 slots are going to cost you ~150k honor which is 50-75 hours grinding BG's if you do it solo.

I'd say, yeah, around 65 hours or so.. considering an arena season can last a few months is asking that someone play about an hour a day a huge time sink? I don't really think so.

Originally posted by: ggnl
And good luck getting arena points with a fresh 70. It takes a looong time to save up for pieces with 1200-1300 rated teams. Like 6-10 weeks each for just the normal armor pieces which is seriously discouraging to casual gamers.

Are you serious? 1200-1300 rated teams? That's AWFUL, one must be terrible to keep ratings like those. I just leveled my warrior to 70 (about a month ago), got him the 5/5 blue set which was EASY considering all you need is honored with a few factions you should have rep'd up with while leveling, and join another friend of mine who's a druid in the same gear state. We sit around a 1500 rating. I don't think I've ever had a week where I get under 300 arena points - and that's playing with a friend who's also similarly geared.

Like I said, I think skill comes into play here. If, by casual, you mean that the player doesn't know the class well enough to play it well then yes, it will take quite some time to acquire points - but it's really not that hard. It's absolutely possible to go from hitting 70 to 4/5 that season's gear (minus shoulders/weapon due to the personal rating) and complete non-set epics during a single season (a few months) only playing an hour or so per day on average. I know this, because I did it on my lock.

 

[Mindliner]

Concerning wow: Getting 2k rating in any bracket is a matter of not being retarded; that's how low the skill cap is. Getting top .5% is a matter of either queuing to intentionally miss counters to your composition, or having more than one comp on your team (i.e. mage/rogue/priest, with a rogue/rogue/druid team around same personal rating sitting around for when your MRP runs into counters). So if you consider queue dodging something that requires skill, then yes, wow is skill based. I can just imagine people in a UT2k4 league saying, "Guys we're just not going to play this week because BaU is up against us, and I don't feel like getting our asses handed to us by these guys again. So let's wait until a different team wants to play us." Yeah.

Yes the game is a time sink and everyone who plays WoW knows it. You're just making a fool of yourself if you try to say otherwise. Every time a new season rolls around, what does everyone say? One of two things: "I am so not looking forward to grinding honor for the new bracer/boots/neck/belt/ring," or "Good thing I grinded all that honor and am capped." The "play one hour a day and get full honor gear by the -end of the season-" argument is dumb. Everyone tries to get the best gear asap. Why? Because poorly geared players don't do as well as better geared players. If you were to get your last piece of honor gear the day before the next season, what good would that do you? The next day you get to start the grind again for the best gear.

Let's talk about skillful gameplay in wow.

Druid/warrior: Warrior presses W. Warrior right clicks cloth wearer. Druid stands by pillar. Druid presses heal over time spells. Druid presses S and D when necessary.
Druid/warlock: Warlock presses keys 1, 2, 3, 4. Druid presses heal over time spells. Warlock fears or health stones when necessary.
Druid/hunter: Hunter lays frost trap. Hunter presses beast within or silencing shot, depending on spec. Hunter uses viper sting every time it's up. Druid presses heal over time spells.
Rogue/Rogue: Right click cloth wearer. Blind when necessary.
Priest/rogue: Rogue presses hemo. Priest presses flash heal, fear, mana burn. Pain suppression, blind when necessary.
Mage/rogue: Rogue opens. Mage summons water elemental. Mage shatter combos. Sheep, blind, ice block when necessary.
Mage/rogue/priest: Rogue opens. Mage summons water elemental for shatter combos. Mage sheeps priest, rogue blinds. Priest spams flash heal.
Melee/melee/healer: Right click cloth wearer.
Melee/healer/healer: Right click cloth wearer.

I can post more strats if anyone needs help not failing at this pathetic excuse for competitive gaming.

 

[BadRobot]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
Balanced RTS games, Balanced TBS games, puzzle fighter type games, 'Twitch' FPS shooters ( people seem dead-set and determined to refer to them as twitch, when I have seen COUNTLESS players with minimal/average reflexes straight up destroy players with excellent aim. Movement is an incredible skill to hone.) Virtually every genre has an element of skill that fits within it's play style, developers just no longer include them because players don't want them. They instead want to be 'good' by spending more time than other players and 'beating' them. Thus the MMO was born.

I am definately not a twitch person. My best friend is. We both mastered Counter-strike when we learned you just needed to aim right the first time and be silent when you move.

Both of us quit playing CS when it was in the midst of its "hayday" because we kept getting banned from servers.

 

[BadRobot]

Please PLEASE give me a reason to buy a joystick (flight combat sim). I dont care if it is online or mmo or whatever.....just do it!

 

[Maleficus]

badrobot: CS would be in the debatable column for skilled games.

It wouldn't actually, let me clarify. It requires skill, but the skillset is so limited it's frustrating. the damage is so high, the health is so low, and the movement is so crippled that it degenerated into a 'twitch' shooter. compare to UT2k4 or Quake which people think of when someone mentions twitch, where movement makes a gigantic enormous difference, and it's another story.

long long long ago, I used to be Cal-M, my whole team quit because the game was so silly and simple. We didn't see a point in moving forward.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Mage/rogue: Rogue opens. Mage summons water elemental. Mage shatter combos. Sheep, blind, ice block when necessary.

Uhm, are you talking about your arena team being rated for 200, because you made it sound like you meant 2000. Shatter combo in that bracket? lol, wow man, just wow.
You forgot to have the priest banish the warriors pet, it is as effective as some of the crap you are talking about.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: Mindliner
Concerning wow: Getting 2k rating in any bracket is a matter of not being retarded; that's how low the skill cap is. Getting top .5% is a matter of either queuing to intentionally miss counters to your composition, or having more than one comp on your team (i.e. mage/rogue/priest, with a rogue/rogue/druid team around same personal rating sitting around for when your MRP runs into counters). So if you consider queue dodging something that requires skill, then yes, wow is skill based. I can just imagine people in a UT2k4 league saying, "Guys we're just not going to play this week because BaU is up against us, and I don't feel like getting our asses handed to us by these guys again. So let's wait until a different team wants to play us." Yeah.

Yes the game is a time sink and everyone who plays WoW knows it. You're just making a fool of yourself if you try to say otherwise. Every time a new season rolls around, what does everyone say? One of two things: "I am so not looking forward to grinding honor for the new bracer/boots/neck/belt/ring," or "Good thing I grinded all that honor and am capped." The "play one hour a day and get full honor gear by the -end of the season-" argument is dumb. Everyone tries to get the best gear asap. Why? Because poorly geared players don't do as well as better geared players. If you were to get your last piece of honor gear the day before the next season, what good would that do you? The next day you get to start the grind again for the best gear.

Let's talk about skillful gameplay in wow.

Druid/warrior: Warrior presses W. Warrior right clicks cloth wearer. Druid stands by pillar. Druid presses heal over time spells. Druid presses S and D when necessary.
Druid/warlock: Warlock presses keys 1, 2, 3, 4. Druid presses heal over time spells. Warlock fears or health stones when necessary.
Druid/hunter: Hunter lays frost trap. Hunter presses beast within or silencing shot, depending on spec. Hunter uses viper sting every time it's up. Druid presses heal over time spells.
Rogue/Rogue: Right click cloth wearer. Blind when necessary.
Priest/rogue: Rogue presses hemo. Priest presses flash heal, fear, mana burn. Pain suppression, blind when necessary.
Mage/rogue: Rogue opens. Mage summons water elemental. Mage shatter combos. Sheep, blind, ice block when necessary.
Mage/rogue/priest: Rogue opens. Mage summons water elemental for shatter combos. Mage sheeps priest, rogue blinds. Priest spams flash heal.
Melee/melee/healer: Right click cloth wearer.
Melee/healer/healer: Right click cloth wearer.

I can post more strats if anyone needs help not failing at this pathetic excuse for competitive gaming.

lol, your oversimplification is amusing. The mage/rogue using shatter is pretty amusing considering that combo will never beat a priest/dps team if the priest is any good. Keeping the dps outta shatters is easy especially if you're good at keeping yourself from getting sheep'd - oh, and are you going to argue that the SW trick to break sheep takes no skill? If so, you're hopeless. In addition, ice block is useless against a priest/melee combo due to mass dispel. You've nicely over simplified things, and I guess if you don't mind losing half, or more than half, of your games, than sure, go with your strats. Also, I don't understand why people complain about grinding - so it took someone 65 hours to get a lot of the good gear - are you trying to tell me you pick up your skill FPS games and dominate from the first time you play? Or do you practice to keep up, and have to work at it to get good in the beginning? How is this any different than grinding?

 

[KlokWyze]

It's all about MUDs

Hands down the most difficult online RPG games ever made. Makes WOW "grinding" look like a 5 minute afternoon stroll. I've played @ Alter Aeon AKA Dentinmud for years. It isn't so difficult because it's all text based, the player VS mob balance is insane & finding good eq & even quests on your own is just fucking difficult.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: KlokWyze
It's all about MUDs

Hands down the most difficult online RPG games ever made. Makes WOW "grinding" look like a 5 minute afternoon stroll. I've played @ Alter Aeon AKA Dentinmud for years. It isn't so difficult because it's all text based, the player VS mob balance is insane & finding good eq & even quests on your own is just fucking difficult.

I played on Apocalypse (III, IV, V) for like 5-6 years, and you're absolutely right. MUDs were great.

 

[Mindliner]

Originally posted by: TheVrolokoh, and are you going to argue that the SW trick to break sheep takes no skill? If so, you're hopeless.

Pressing a focus sw:d macro as a 1.35 second cast finishes is skillful, I concede. I guess a mage stopping his poly mid cast would be just as skillful? The point of my simplified "strats" is that that's how dumbed down the game is.

Originally posted by: TheVrolokso it took someone 65 hours to get a lot of the good gear - are you trying to tell me you pick up your skill FPS games and dominate from the first time you play? Or do you practice to keep up, and have to work at it to get good in the beginning? How is this any different than grinding?

Right there you're equating a gear grind in WoW to skill gained from practice in a FPS. The playing field is equal from the start in a good FPS, and practice is all you need. You start with horrible gear in WoW, and grinding is what you need; not practice.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Why do people who dislike WoW, or all mmorpgs for that matter, find it necessary to try to convince everyone else that they suck?

Klok, I used to play a few MUDs in the mid-90s. Great stuff but I just can't get into it anymore unfortunately.

 

[Maleficus]

fing: because it's a trend with such tremendous momentum that it is absorbing all of gaming, every company wants a piece of the seemingly limitless MMO cash cow, the number of titles being produced in real genres is dropping and instead we are getting 100 copies a month of WoW.

Also it just sets a horrible precedent, article in sig.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: Mindliner

Originally posted by: TheVrolokoh, and are you going to argue that the SW trick to break sheep takes no skill? If so, you're hopeless.

Pressing a focus sw:d macro as a 1.35 second cast finishes is skillful, I concede. I guess a mage stopping his poly mid cast would be just as skillful? The point of my simplified "strats" is that that's how dumbed down the game is.

Originally posted by: TheVrolokso it took someone 65 hours to get a lot of the good gear - are you trying to tell me you pick up your skill FPS games and dominate from the first time you play? Or do you practice to keep up, and have to work at it to get good in the beginning? How is this any different than grinding?

Right there you're equating a gear grind in WoW to skill gained from practice in a FPS. The playing field is equal from the start in a good FPS, and practice is all you need. You start with horrible gear in WoW, and grinding is what you need; not practice.

Couldn't I just dumb down any FPS by saying all you need to do is rush down XX spot and use XX weapon, aim for the chest and left recoil take it to the head (or whatever the mechanics of the specific game/weapon are)? Just because I can dumb it down doesn't make it true across the board.

You get the practice in WoW during the time you're grinding. To be the top players, both PvP and PvE it takes an in depth knowledge of both your class and the classes played by others. If it didn't take anything but gear, why wouldn't we have all 2k+ rated arena teams by the end of the season? Everyone has had the same number of months to get to that point and yet still some teams can't break the 1750-1850 barriers - why not? If it's not a lack of skill it's gotta be something? Yes, WoW does have a time requirement - but that's the nature of the beast - if you don't like it - fine, but to claim that all you need is vast amounts of time is absurd.

 

[Maleficus]

Please try to dumb down UT2k4, I would like to see this.

I'll try and make it easier, it's a 1v1 on Rankin

Please tell me which spot I should rush, what weapon i should use, where I should aim etc etc.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
Please try to dumb down UT2k4, I would like to see this.

I'll try and make it easier, it's a 1v1 on Rankin

Please tell me which spot I should rush, what weapon i should use, where I should aim etc etc.

shrug, I don't play UT2k4, I stopped playing UT years ago. I guess it must be the best game ever as it's still dominating the markets - games evolve and older games pass away. While they may have been good and will maintain a small niche of players that will continue to play them for years after they've begun to fade, there are still new games coming out that are just as good.

 

[Maleficus]

basically you can't do it, thanks.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
basically you can't do it, thanks.

You're absolutely right; I can't do it because I have no idea to what you're referring. I didn't play much of UT2k4? You do see your fallacy here, right?

Is your argument now that this specific case in UT2k4 is the pinnacle of all MP gaming and all other games are paltry in comparison? It sure seems like you have it on some pedestal.

 

[Maleficus]

It's my personal favorite, but it certainly has it's problems as nothing is perfect, the difference is it's problems aren't game breaking. Also you are still evading.

If you are going to break down and oversimplfy an FPS like you say you can, do it.

The point is that you can't do it, not because you are unfamiliar with the game (although you should be considering it was one of the two dominant games for it's time period, especially if you are going to make comparisons against the genre.) You can't do it for Street Fighter 3: 3rd strike, you can't do it for any of the better skill based games because they don't allow it, the player crafts the game as a mechanism to display his abilities. World of Warcraft is the exact opposite, the game is crafted so everyone picks from a pre-selected group of skills, half of which are entirely useless, and then the only difference among those players is the gear they obtain as a function of time.

This is not how a fair game works.

* A fair game does not give material advantages to one player over the other
* A fair game gives each player equal opportunity to bring whatever legal materials he wants (in our case, you can choose any character you want, no need to grind him to level 60. All players have immediate equal access to all characters.)
* It's ok (and the entire point!) to bring to the game a) more knowledge than your opponent about the nuances of the game, and b) more skill than your opponent.
* Time invested should count for nothing in a fair game. It might take me 1 hour to learn a few nuances and gain a certain level of skill and you 1000 hours. The hours don't matter; only the knowledge and skill matter.
* I'll say it again: winning is a meritocracy.
* Finally, playing a fair game is what it's all about. It would never occur to us to play a game where one player gets to do 50% more damage because he has a level 60 Chun Li.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
It's my personal favorite, but it certainly has it's problems as nothing is perfect, the difference is it's problems aren't game breaking. Also you are still evading.

If you are going to break down and oversimplfy an FPS like you say you can, do it.

The point is that you can't do it, not because you are unfamiliar with the game (although you should be considering it was one of the two dominant games for it's time period, especially if you are going to make comparisons against the genre.) You can't do it for Street Fighter 3: 3rd strike, you can't do it for any of the better skill based games because they don't allow it, the player crafts the game as a mechanism to display his abilities. World of Warcraft is the exact opposite, the game is crafted so everyone picks from a pre-selected group of skills, half of which are entirely useless, and then the only difference among those players is the gear they obtain as a function of time.

This is not how a fair game works.

* A fair game does not give material advantages to one player over the other
* A fair game gives each player equal opportunity to bring whatever legal materials he wants (in our case, you can choose any character you want, no need to grind him to level 60. All players have immediate equal access to all characters.)
* It's ok (and the entire point!) to bring to the game a) more knowledge than your opponent about the nuances of the game, and b) more skill than your opponent.
* Time invested should count for nothing in a fair game. It might take me 1 hour to learn a few nuances and gain a certain level of skill and you 1000 hours. The hours don't matter; only the knowledge and skill matter.
* I'll say it again: winning is a meritocracy.
* Finally, playing a fair game is what it's all about. It would never occur to us to play a game where one player gets to do 50% more damage because he has a level 60 Chun Li.

Fair is an unbelievably relative term. You continue to choose to use it in a way that is fashioned for your argument. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, and I'm no longer wasting me time. Feel free to claim victory and stroke your e-peen. I'm comfortable enough with the fact that millions of gamers disagree with you that I don't need to take this any further.

 

[Maleficus]

It bothers me when people do this. you take a point but you never defended it. Not once did your messages contain any substance, not once did you do what you claimed to do. Where are the counter-points to the article? where is my dumbed down FPS strategy?

**Edited because my original post was probably too harsh.

 

[Deus3344]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Fair is an unbelievably relative term. You continue to choose to use it in a way that is fashioned for your argument. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall, and I'm no longer wasting me time. Feel free to claim victory and stroke your e-peen. I'm comfortable enough with the fact that millions of gamers disagree with you that I don't need to take this any further.

If fair is a relative term could you use it in a way that is fashioned for your argument?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Maleficus
MMO's = no skill, no story, no point.. why play any of them?

Because like a dog and a stick, like a hamster and a wheel, they tap into some basic human need and Make Us Pleased, by releasing our endorphins, if we don't resist.

 

[BenSkywalker]

This is not how a fair game works.

* A fair game does not give material advantages to one player over the other
* A fair game gives each player equal opportunity to bring whatever legal materials he wants (in our case, you can choose any character you want, no need to grind him to level 60. All players have immediate equal access to all characters.)
* It's ok (and the entire point!) to bring to the game a) more knowledge than your opponent about the nuances of the game, and b) more skill than your opponent.
* Time invested should count for nothing in a fair game. It might take me 1 hour to learn a few nuances and gain a certain level of skill and you 1000 hours. The hours don't matter; only the knowledge and skill matter.
* I'll say it again: winning is a meritocracy.
* Finally, playing a fair game is what it's all about. It would never occur to us to play a game where one player gets to do 50% more damage because he has a level 60 Chun Li.

This takes care of pretty much everything you have to say on that subject. You play at the top level of competitive pvp everyone is given exactly the same equiptment to use- noone gets above or below. Furthermore- you are allowed to pick any spec/class you want at max level with all the top tier gear.

As to the article, truly its' ignorance to the real world is rather profound and frequently self contradictory.

If you invest more time than someone else, you "deserve" rewards. People who invest less time "do not deserve" rewards. This is an absurd lesson that has no connection to anything I do in the real world.

He is saying here that someone with their MBA doesn't deserve anything more then a prodigal high school drop out. Try convincing any place of employment of that. For that matter, try getting a business to pay its' typical worker money for the actual amount of work done compared to hours worked. Certainly there are salaried positions, but the majority of people do not work that way. A very large portion of people's lives are very much revolved around time in versus rewards.

This system allows players to work their way through the ranks, starting at rank 0 and maxing out at rank 14.

This has already been 'fixed'(this article is outdated, that isn't the author's fault, just pointing it out). You can now easily rank as one of the top pvpers with under 2 hours a week played, nothing at all like the old honor grind.

Group > Solo. You can forget self-reliance, because you won't get far in World of Warcraft without a big guild.

This one I was laughing at. So the author of this article on one of his other points mentions how one of the better artists he works with or one of the better coders he works with can give much higher quality work then someone of less skill. Why isn't he doing every single little bit of it himself? 99.99% of people in real life don't 'solo' it.

5) Guilds. The tools for creating and maintaining a guild in World of Wacraft seem benevolent enough......

It's a very weird social environment with the same dangers as nationalism and flag-waving.

As opposed to a CS clan? Not to mention, there are a LOT of players that I know that play the game that remain unguilded and have no problem with getting into the later game end content that this guy insists they need a guild for without one. Your singular reputation will earn you a slot sort of like a free agent if you are really good.

This article sounds like it was written by someone who only ever truly felt comfortable in his mother's basement honestly. It doesn't sound like they have experienced much real life at all.