Which would you buy? Win 7 or Win 8.1?

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Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
Actually the word I would use is "desperate", as in they were desperate to try to latch onto a piece of the tablet market before it was too late, but I understand what you are saying. From a business perspective I can understand it somewhat. It's just too bad it wasn't implemented better.

Yeah, it could be 'desperate', that might fit as well.

Must be tough to try and manuever such a juggernaut as Microsoft when the market changes - having to anticipate not only tech changes but social ones as well.

It would be interesting to read an honest, warts-and-all account of what goes on inside these corporations as they struggle to cope with constantly changing conditions (MS but also, nvidia, AMD, not to mention the late 3dfx - Intel don't seem to have been doing much struggling, so less drama there, but they must have had their moments!).
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
This thread has been cleared of Cheez. In the future please report posts rather than responding to them.

And Cheez, you're no longer allowed to post in this thread.

-ViRGE
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
0
Serious question, as I'm still trying to decide which way to go.

If you use the start screen as an 'application launcher', do you not end up with a badly-sorted list of huge numbers of horizontally-scrolling un-nested app shortcuts? I just don't see how that is any kind of improvement on the start menu with its nested and cascading menus, right there on your desktop.
Seems to me one would be better advised to use a substitute start-menu and avoid Metro entirely (which again makes one ask, why is it there?).
Wish I knew more precisely what 8.2 is going to be!

The "reveal" and cascading menus of the Start Menu is really unnecessary for me. That extra clicks, mouse scrolling, and mouse dragging to access frequent things in that manner of "All Programs" should highly be reconsidered to pinning to the desktop as shortcuts, permanently pinned in the Start Menu, or in 8, in the forefront of the left most portion of the Start Screen scrolling.

And you do not need to reveal anything with the "All Programs" screen in the Start Screen. It is all right there with a scroll of the mouse wheel, after one click on the down arrow on the initial Start Screen (just like one click on the "All Programs" button). A REAL complaint is that the Program Folder names are not as prevalent, they are the same font size, and their color can blend with the background. Another is that the listing of the Program Folder contents is broken across columns (a listing starts at the bottom of the screen, finishes at the top on the next column over).

A huge difference (even more so with 8.1) is the different tile sizes for organizational emphasis, custom tile group names, and more screen real estate to pin things on the forefront of the Start (There is only so much vertical space of the Start Menu).

And like I said, Booting to desktop for cold boot machines, what is the first thing users would do? Run a program by clicking on a shortcut. Booting to a start screen? First thing they do, click on a tile to start a program. This is a presentation difference.

*EDIT* Damnit, a good chunk of this post is truncated.
 
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Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
0
Also, if you have to pin EVERYTHING to the start screen (or hell, even in the start menu), one has to take a very hard look on how frequently accessed programs are organized versus infrequent applications that are rarely used. Windows 8 adds more options for organization (even more so, if one WANTS to use the start menu of before with 8.2)

Windows 8, requires more mouse movement (lifting, dragging, scrolling) due to the menu click areas being more spread versus 7's Start menu access. This is even more true, if the user does not bother to tune their acceleration and mouse speed settings. Even worse if someone bought a laptop with Windows 8 and they solely use the trackpad. It is even worse if there is no options for touch screens on laptops, or not wanting to use an external mouse due to table space or certain, cramped laptop deployment usages.

Off topic, this is why I would vouch for a trackball for mouse pointing. Three fold benefits of reducing needed desk space and mouse pads for functional pointing, greatly reduced wrist strain (especially from constant lifting to "zero" the cursor in accordance with the surface to move the cursor again), and one can quickly or precisely navigate the pointer in a smaller mice footprint than a lift and drag mouse. The problem is, there is a dwindling number of manufacturers that are up to bat to make a proper, modern trackball (fingerball or thumbball). Save for Logitech, who finally got up on their asses a few years back to release the M570, most of the OEMs are still stuck in the nineties in releasing awkward, non-ergonomic designs. Even worse, all I see are heavily marketed gaming mices... which exacerbates the issue. And sadly, because of these devices being "heavily tech specification marketed", no one will see past that to realize that after those gaming mice usage, there WILL be considerable fatigue.

Trackpads for laptops is something that certain OEMs fail to recognize, and will still not fully, thoughtfully implement due to their basic integration of their solicited parts and devices solutions to make the pointing methods work (Not just Windows 8 laptops, but 7 and more into the past as well).

For those that do want to keep their traditional lifting and dragging mice or are solely using a trackpad under the keyboard (no other options that the user wants to utilize), currently Windows 7's ONLY strength is in that area in initial menu access and program launching. Even then, organizational wise, Windows 8 does things better than 7 does. If Windows 8 and 8.1 is already on the device/laptop/etc, it makes no sense to "rollback" save for niche cases of software (drivers or programs) incompatibility.
 

coolpurplefan

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2006
1,243
0
0
If you use WinXP SP3 at least you can use new antivirus software like Avira Antivir. If you click on rootkits and malware, you can find stuff you usually don't.

Only thing I don't know is how you can change the settings in the computer to stop the last page you clicked on from taking over the screen when you very click to another screen. It's when the page has finished loading, it automatically goes back to that window when I don't want it to.

I find IE8 is OK. I like Chrome a little better though.
 
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gizbug

Platinum Member
May 14, 2001
2,621
0
76
I'm fitting out a new pc, and I originally thought I was going to put FreeBSD on it, but, I probably need to have windows to keep up with my ASP .net work. I'm really not excited about spending $140.00, but, you have to pay if you want to play right?

I've read some negative things about 8.1, and I don't have a clue what all this Metro stuff is about. The missing Start button was enough to turn me off of 8 when I first heard about it. The issue I guess I'm having is wondering how fast MS will stop supporting 7.

I have XP SP1a loaded on to the new pc. It starts up. I CAN open IE6 and go to a couple of sites without it crashing. You can find SP2 anywhere.

So, anyway, Which way would you go? 7 or 8.1?

8.1
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
I'm guessing all these people refusing to upgrade are older, conservative middle aged people that are just stuck in their ways. If not, its really silly to see young people so scared of change, especially for tech enthusiasts who love new things.

Windows 8.1 is a nice upgrade that addresses alot of the issues from windows 8. I used it recently and its perfectly fine, infact i liked it and had no trouble using it (i've been on Win7 for 5 years and Vista before then). I personally haven't upgraded because there's no need given my situation,but once i upgrade my mobo & CPU (Broadwell this year i hope) then definitely i'll buy win 8.1 for it.

For those using windows XP, wtf? its 13 years old, why are u even on this tech enthusiast forum to begin with? U realize in 2001 the avg comp was a (single core) Pentium 3 @ 500mhz, 128mb RAM, & 10gb hdd? THAT'S what WinXP was designed for.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
I'm guessing all these people refusing to upgrade are older, conservative middle aged people that are just stuck in their ways. If not, its really silly to see young people so scared of change, especially for tech enthusiasts who love new things.
We're not scared. We just don't like the way they've implemented it, and they aren't paying us money to use it, but asking for money from our pockets for the ability to use it.

I am not a business, that has bought into Microsoft's development stack, or some vertical market Windows-only software, or MS Office. I need to be convinced that it is worth my money to use their new product. I can go try a new DE/WM for free, and honestly find Compiz (usually w/ XFCE, but LXDE has been warming on me) and E17 both superior to 7, and KDE can be made about as good. Neither cost me anything that I don't already have. The catch is that OSes using them can't run a newish version of Visio (Dia is making huge strides, though!), nor can play most video games.

It was done poorly. When they do it better, I'll pay for that version. I've had to learn to use it to support it. It's just plain awkward, the start screen sucks, and the flat look they force is difficult to quickly scan in person (texture and contrast are good things), and is especially bad once it has been compressed (remote support, FI). Lenovo's and Toshiba's, with start menu replacements, are OK, especially 8.1, where it really has been possible to stay out of Metro, even without being able to use the win key (again, a difficulty for remote support that isn't an issue for 7 or older). But then, that makes it where there's a fragmentation of Windows 8/8.1 GUIs, as well.

8.1 is nicer than 8. But, what does it offer that's worth paying $100 for? 7 offered enough over XP or Vista. 8 nor 8.1 do, for many of us not using touch all the time (I've used Win 8 w/ touch once, on a demo tablet). Like Vista, it has some good features, but was mismanaged, and they're going to need a couple years to reconcile it all. After they do that, I'll have no problem buying whatever the nicely fixed up OS ends up being, be it 9, 10, 11, or 50, so long as I still have a need for Windows.

For example, if they implemented per-session Explorer options, like Dolphin, PCManFM, Thunar, et al, have, that would be a huge plus--context-sensitive can go DIAF (it is one of the things I dislike about any Windows since XP, not something 8 has worse; 8's Explorer is an improvement over 7's). The in-fashion flat looks needs to either go away, or be an easy to change default, because it's just plain bad; I've used constrast, shapes, and colors to tell what I'm looking at quickly since...well, before I knew what a computer was. A menu to organize programs needs to come back, without 3rd-party utilities (the point is to make it easy to locate rarely-used programs, or programs rarely started directly, and nested menus are perfect for doing that). They must either integrate Metro/Modern and desktop into a single cohesive window manager, or allow them to be switched by explicit choice, rather than by focus. They could do other things, too, but those come right to mind.

Either it becomes worthwhile to upgrade, or a pretty much unpatchable security hole needs to be found in an older one (such as the general security model before Vista).

For those using windows XP, wtf?
Now, that I agree with.

Windows 8, requires more mouse movement (lifting, dragging, scrolling) due to the menu click areas being more spread versus 7's Start menu access. This is even more true, if the user does not bother to tune their acceleration and mouse speed settings.
For which the correct setting is, "off," be it mouse or trackball or trackpad. Acceleration is only suitable for sticks, like trackpoints.

<- fussy gamer

For those that do want to keep their traditional lifting and dragging mice
The trick is to slam it against the opposite edge of the screen, if using desktop programs. Fast, and no picking up and then setting down, and then getting bearings again. But, it requires enough DPI or acceleration to do it inside the mouse pad, and lots of folk are still either using 300-400 DPI mice, or so used to having them that they find their new mice too sensitive.

Outside of FPS/TPS gaming, trackballs are definitely better, but acceleration is awful on them, much as it is on a mouse. Acceleration on trackpads has to be the worst, though, and on many it can't be turned off.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
I'm guessing all these people refusing to upgrade are older, conservative middle aged people that are just stuck in their ways. If not, its really silly to see young people so scared of change, especially for tech enthusiasts who love new things.


I'm now over 50 and have no issues using Win8.1 even in gaming with good old mouse and keyboard ,its dead easy and I keep stating that I have everything within one or two clicks max,as to Metro even that is not a big deal since I've it customised to my needs.

I'm ready now for Win9 or even 10 so you could say one of those guys that find it easy to move forward regardless,yes I use Linux as well.

I do know one thing probably see same moans and groans on Win9,10 etc some things never change with some people,anyway interesting times ahead for Microsoft.

 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,656
491
126
There should be a 3rd option now if the information about a start menu and resizable metro apps are correct.

option c) wait for Windows 8.2 as is rumored now.

I don't think they'll offer a new OS without a way of reverting to a previous versions interface. The person who was in charge of Win8's development is no longer with MS and supposedly it was him who made the decision to remove a fallback option for the ui.
 

Imaginer

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
8,076
1
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Outside of FPS/TPS gaming, trackballs are definitely better, but acceleration is awful on them, much as it is on a mouse. Acceleration on trackpads has to be the worst, though, and on many it can't be turned off.

Given practice, trackballs can be just as good (if not better) in first person games and third person games. I game with my trackball, and can do so sans desk, anywhere. Granted, I am not playing (or ever will get into stressful) competitive situations; given practice, it can be used competitively.

Two weeks of constant usage got me acclimated to the fingerball. Another two for a thumbball. My wrists thank me everytime I use them.

The trick is to slam it against the opposite edge of the screen, if using desktop programs. Fast, and no picking up and then setting down, and then getting bearings again

Not just the up and down lifting of the wrist, twisting it left and right also adds strain. And to do that sweeping motion regularly, it can get to a person.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
The real trouble is moving quickly while holding buttons down. I've never been able to manage that, yet also usually have enough keys mapped to keep every digit of my left hand occupied, already.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0

Likewise, plus a Start Menu add-on. The security advances of Win8 over Win7 are pretty compelling, it's worth the occasional heckling by Metro.

I could see sticking with Win7 if you're committed to older software that doesn't want to run on Win8.x due to forced DEP or whatnot. That's still a much safer bet than WinXP.
 

denis280

Diamond Member
Jan 16, 2011
3,434
9
81
Well! Was confused with win8. then 8.1 came out.not bad for touch screen or tablet.I have it on one of my system.and i give it a 5 on 10.lets hope MS will surprise us with a great 8.2 or 9.But 7 is my choice
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,656
491
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That is a good thread And this particular post stuck out to me

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25577897&postcount=22
If its your thing fine but rubbishing other people because you can't comprehend they don't use the OS in the same manner as you is a bit special.

^that is something we should all keep in mind when discussing things as innocuous (or things that should be) as OS choice.

Especially considering that not everyone necessarily has the same hardware setup (especially among enthusiasts) and even if they did they'd still probably use different OS settings for the UI



.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
That is a good thread And this particular post stuck out to me

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25577897&postcount=22

^that is something we should all keep in mind when discussing things as innocuous (or things that should be) as OS choice.

Especially considering that not everyone necessarily has the same hardware setup (especially among enthusiasts) and even if they did they'd still probably use different OS settings for the UI
.

It's also the same for Win7 users ie they all use OS in a different way,end of the day this will always happen regardless of Win7,8,9,10 etc especially when both hardware and software changes over time.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,656
491
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Hence why I said....

^that is something we should all keep in mind when discussing things as innocuous (or things that should be) as OS choice.
I was including everyone (including myself) no matter what OS they're favoring. So... thanks for reiterating the point of that post I quoted I suppose.


Of course I'll upgrade to a newer MS OS but atm I don't feel the need to and the real possibility of an earlier style start menu (not just start button) and resizable metro apps in a future iteration of Win8 happening before Win7 is too outdated makes me feel less pressure to do so before Windows 8.2 or 9
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I just click on the STAR in IE and select from the favorites menu. You can separate things into folders for similar items. If you have like 100 icons on a desktop I don't think that makes much sense. Now where did I put that? Sure put your most favorite favorites on shortcut Icons. Might be nice if there were some shortcuts with drop down lists.

On the other hand maybe you could use a two monitor system so you could have more shortcuts? At work I scan documents and link them to the users in the database, so I put scanning on one monitor and the database on another monitor. Works pretty good when you get use to it.
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I wonder if you can make an image map and assign diff programs to diff parts of the image. I remember programs like Office use to have like an office bar and you could click on what you want. Think of it as a bunch of shortcuts all crammed together with no space in between them.
 
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